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Reply 281 of 307, by SuperDeadite

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One USB cable can do both USB-MIDI and USB-Audio at the same time.

Modules: CM-64, CM-500, SC-55MkII, SC-88 Pro, SY22, TG100, MU2000EX, PLG100-SG, PLG150-DR, PLG150-AN, SG01k, NS5R, GZ-50M, SN-U110-07, SN-U110-10, Pocket Studio 5, DreamBlaster S2, X2, McFly, E-Wave, QWave, CrystalBlaster C2, Yucatan FX, BeepBlaster

Reply 282 of 307, by zaphod77

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so it shows as both a midi device and a line in? and you'd turn on "listen to this source?"

anyone who actually has one of these hooked up that way, i'd like to see how to make it output audio through the main souncard speakers or the hdmi cable.

If that actually works, and the x2gs se with the sc55 bank on it instead oof the 16 meg oen actually manages ot not screw up right in the night, then i'll be quite impressed.

Reply 283 of 307, by SuperDeadite

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If you plan to run externally, best to get an X2 Box or Chill interface anyway. It's quite a lot of fun having an easy swap waveblaster module for all the cool daughter boards that exist now. I love all of the vintage chip boards Serdaco has created and hope for more in the future.

Modules: CM-64, CM-500, SC-55MkII, SC-88 Pro, SY22, TG100, MU2000EX, PLG100-SG, PLG150-DR, PLG150-AN, SG01k, NS5R, GZ-50M, SN-U110-07, SN-U110-10, Pocket Studio 5, DreamBlaster S2, X2, McFly, E-Wave, QWave, CrystalBlaster C2, Yucatan FX, BeepBlaster

Reply 284 of 307, by appiah4

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RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2023-11-28, 11:42:
appiah4 wrote on 2023-11-28, 10:29:
zaphod77 wrote on 2023-11-28, 09:44:

Also, seems the SE version has the usb port, but not the audio out? how does that even????

What exactly do you need an audio out for on a waveblaster board anyhow? I mean, it was nice enough of Serge to include it originally but the purpose always kind of eluded me.

The point of the audio out was to use it for recording/listening, when using the X2GS card in the enclosure case, making it an external and portable synth module that you could use with modern and retro desktops that don't have any soundcard with a Waveblaster header. That being said, many people didn't use the X2/X2GS as a Waveblaster add-on card for a soundcard. That's why the audio out was carried over to the X16GS, which is overkill for a Waveblaster add-on and perfect for MIDI playback and creation.

You can do all that with the USB port as the thing also works as a USB Audio device no?

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 285 of 307, by zaphod77

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SuperDeadite wrote on 2023-11-29, 09:12:

If you plan to run externally, best to get an X2 Box or Chill interface anyway. It's quite a lot of fun having an easy swap waveblaster module for all the cool daughter boards that exist now. I love all of the vintage chip boards Serdaco has created and hope for more in the future.

But then it's not system audio. 😀

I agree it would be handy when i have more money in my pocket, but for now as i live in an apartment earbuds are the order of the day, and any solution i use needs to play nice with them.

Reply 286 of 307, by Karmeck

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SuperDeadite wrote on 2023-11-28, 22:40:

One USB cable can do both USB-MIDI and USB-Audio at the same time.

The important question here is if this board works that way.

It clearly states that there is USB-midi in, there is no mentioning of an out.

Feel free clarify this (I don't know how to @ someone)

dreamblaster wrote on 2021-04-24, 12:36:

Reply 287 of 307, by RetroGamer4Ever

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From what I read in the DREAM programming guide and chip specs, you can get USB audio output if it's turned on in the firmware and it uses two of the unallocated CPU cores on the DREAM chips. I don't think it is enabled on the X2/X16 products, as nobody has said anything about it. Otherwise, you need a digital audio output interface on the board, such as TOSLINK or digital coax.

Reply 288 of 307, by Karmeck

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RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2023-12-04, 13:06:

From what I read in the DREAM programming guide and chip specs, you can get USB audio output if it's turned on in the firmware and it uses two of the unallocated CPU cores on the DREAM chips. I don't think it is enabled on the X2/X16 products, as nobody has said anything about it. Otherwise, you need a digital audio output interface on the board, such as TOSLINK or digital coax.

I'm gonna interpret that as a no then.

I can understand it, from a vendor standpoint, getting to sell more products.

This being more clearly stated though, would be appreciated.

I'm at a point though there I'm fine with soundfonts.

And this product is not even aimed at me without a retro computer or even a sound card for that matter.

Reply 289 of 307, by dreamblaster

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on X2 and X2GS, it is all about synth playback. It is not a USB audio device. https://www.serdashop.com/X2GS
Hardware wise it is not capable because it uses single crystal configuration, the synth plays at 46.875 kHz.

Current X16/X16GS firmware also focusses on synth playback only. The hardware is in theory capable of USB audio, as it features 2 crystals.
https://www.serdashop.com/DreamBlaster-X16GS

The midi module X3M has 2 crystals, and exists in 2 editions :
- X3MB : synth only, 81 voice polyphony : https://www.serdashop.com/X3MBuran
- X3MA: synth + usb audio, 54 voices polyphony https://www.serdashop.com/X3M (available on request)

Visit http://www.serdashop.com for retro sound cards, video converters, ...
DreamBlaster X2, S2, S2P, HDD Clicker, ... many projects !
New X2GS SE & X16GS sound card : https://www.serdashop.com/X2GS-SE ,
Thanks for your support !

Reply 290 of 307, by darry

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Karmeck wrote on 2023-12-04, 22:01:
I'm gonna interpret that as a no then. […]
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RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2023-12-04, 13:06:

From what I read in the DREAM programming guide and chip specs, you can get USB audio output if it's turned on in the firmware and it uses two of the unallocated CPU cores on the DREAM chips. I don't think it is enabled on the X2/X16 products, as nobody has said anything about it. Otherwise, you need a digital audio output interface on the board, such as TOSLINK or digital coax.

I'm gonna interpret that as a no then.

I can understand it, from a vendor standpoint, getting to sell more products.

This being more clearly stated though, would be appreciated.

I'm at a point though there I'm fine with soundfonts.

And this product is not even aimed at me without a retro computer or even a sound card for that matter.

In additition to what @Dreamblaster mentioned, and specifically in response to your two last points, I would like to add that, as the X2GS can be used with a modern (non-retro) computer over USB, it is of potential interest and use to people like you without retro computers or sound cards. Of course, if you are happy with soundfonts and software synths, that is fine. The X2GS (and also Roland's SCVA) do provide a different and, to some people at least (EDIT: arguably to many people, including myself), a better experience.

Reply 291 of 307, by deepthaw

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darry wrote on 2023-12-09, 19:50:
Karmeck wrote on 2023-12-04, 22:01:
I'm gonna interpret that as a no then. […]
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RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2023-12-04, 13:06:

From what I read in the DREAM programming guide and chip specs, you can get USB audio output if it's turned on in the firmware and it uses two of the unallocated CPU cores on the DREAM chips. I don't think it is enabled on the X2/X16 products, as nobody has said anything about it. Otherwise, you need a digital audio output interface on the board, such as TOSLINK or digital coax.

I'm gonna interpret that as a no then.

I can understand it, from a vendor standpoint, getting to sell more products.

This being more clearly stated though, would be appreciated.

I'm at a point though there I'm fine with soundfonts.

And this product is not even aimed at me without a retro computer or even a sound card for that matter.

In additition to what @Dreamblaster mentioned, and specifically in response to your two last points, I would like to add that, as the X2GS can be used with a modern (non-retro) computer over USB, it is of potential interest and use to people like you without retro computers or sound cards. Of course, if you are happy with soundfonts and software synths, that is fine. The X2GS (and also Roland's SCVA) do provide a different and, to some people at least (EDIT: arguably to many people, including myself), a better experience.

I hooked mine up to my Win11 PC via USB, and then pointed an X68000 PC emulator towards it for MIDI support and it worked flawlessly. See the Castlevania video I posted earlier in the thread.

Reply 292 of 307, by Rawit

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I've used mine through MIDI (with an USB-MIDI cable + CHiLL board) and at other times directy through USB on Windows 10 systems. Both ways work perfectly with Falcosoft MIDI player, DosBox, MIDI-OX and various MIDI editors.

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Reply 293 of 307, by dreamblaster

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X2GS playlist by Rawit : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AVncV90FcU&l … b_channel=Rawit

Visit http://www.serdashop.com for retro sound cards, video converters, ...
DreamBlaster X2, S2, S2P, HDD Clicker, ... many projects !
New X2GS SE & X16GS sound card : https://www.serdashop.com/X2GS-SE ,
Thanks for your support !

Reply 294 of 307, by M-HT

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I'm sharing here what I discovered. As was mentioned in other topics, Dreamblaster X2(GS) can use 32 midi channels (2 ports of 16 channels). When connected using waveblaster header you can use non-standard MIDI message "F5 nn" to switch between the two ports (nn=1 or 2). This doesn't work when connected using USB.
To access the second port over USB you need to send data using the second virtual cable. The USB MIDI protocol has a concept of virtual cables, up to 16, each of them communicates with one port. Dreamblaster X2(GS) declares only one (embedded) midi output port so only one virtual cable is used.
I modified a linux kernel module (snd-usbmidi-lib.ko) to use two midi output ports (two virtual cables) which creates two alsa midi ports you can communicate with. I succesfully played some 32 channel midi files, but otherwise I don't know what I would do with the second port.
The patch for the file sound/usb/midi.c (from linux kernel version 6.1) is included.

Attachments

  • Filename
    midi.c.patch
    File size
    1.82 KiB
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    28 downloads
    File comment
    Patch for sound/usb/midi.c (from linux kernel version 6.1)
    File license
    GPL-2.0-or-later

Reply 295 of 307, by Falcosoft

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M-HT wrote on 2023-12-27, 13:07:
I'm sharing here what I discovered. As was mentioned in other topics, Dreamblaster X2(GS) can use 32 midi channels (2 ports of 1 […]
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I'm sharing here what I discovered. As was mentioned in other topics, Dreamblaster X2(GS) can use 32 midi channels (2 ports of 16 channels). When connected using waveblaster header you can use non-standard MIDI message "F5 nn" to switch between the two ports (nn=1 or 2). This doesn't work when connected using USB.
To access the second port over USB you need to send data using the second virtual cable. The USB MIDI protocol has a concept of virtual cables, up to 16, each of them communicates with one port. Dreamblaster X2(GS) declares only one (embedded) midi output port so only one virtual cable is used.
I modified a linux kernel module (snd-usbmidi-lib.ko) to use two midi output ports (two virtual cables) which creates two alsa midi ports you can communicate with. I succesfully played some 32 channel midi files, but otherwise I don't know what I would do with the second port.
The patch for the file sound/usb/midi.c (from linux kernel version 6.1) is included.

Nice patch. It would be great to find out what is the root problem that prevents USB MIDI connections to transfer "F5 nn" messages. By "other topics" maybe you referred to my FSMP topic where I tested this feaure with the same results:
Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi
As far as I remember back then I stopped investigating the issue but now a quick research revealed that the core of the issue could be the USB MIDI specification itself which required an explicit translation for every MIDI message to get a 32-bit USB-MIDI Event Packet.
And when the specification was written "F5 nn" messages was left out as undefined:
https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/midi10.pdf

Note1: F4 and F5 messages are undefined by the MIDI Specification 1.0. If they are defined in the
future, the length should be two or three bytes. In this case they would be categorized as
CIN=0x2 or CIN=0x3.

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Reply 296 of 307, by M-HT

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The problem with sending "F5 nn" messages over USB is twofold.
One, no USB MIDI driver implements the message because a) it's not part of the standard and b) it's solving a problem (using more midi ports) that's already solved in USB MIDI by using virtual cables.
This can be solved by modifying the kernel module, which I did - I tried using CIN 0x2 (Two-byte System Common messages), CIN 0x6 (SysEx ends with following two bytes) and two CIN 0xf (Single Byte) packets to transfer the message.
None of it worked, probably because of the second problem, which is that the receiving side has to recognize the message and act upon it, which Dreamblaster X2(GS) doesn't do (probably for the same reasons as the first problem).

The proper solution would be to modify the firmware on Dreamblaster X2(GS) to advertise two embedded midi output ports. That would make the second port available on all operating systems without needing to hack the drivers.

It doesn't make much sense because the first edition isn't sold anymore and the second edition doesn't have audio output jack which limits the use when connected using USB.

It would make more sense on Dreamblaster X16 which has 4 midi ports (64 midi channels) according to the documentation.

Reply 297 of 307, by Falcosoft

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M-HT wrote on 2023-12-27, 17:18:
The problem with sending "F5 nn" messages over USB is twofold. One, no USB MIDI driver implements the message because a) it's no […]
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The problem with sending "F5 nn" messages over USB is twofold.
One, no USB MIDI driver implements the message because a) it's not part of the standard and b) it's solving a problem (using more midi ports) that's already solved in USB MIDI by using virtual cables.
This can be solved by modifying the kernel module, which I did - I tried using CIN 0x2 (Two-byte System Common messages), CIN 0x6 (SysEx ends with following two bytes) and two CIN 0xf (Single Byte) packets to transfer the message.
None of it worked, probably because of the second problem, which is that the receiving side has to recognize the message and act upon it, which Dreamblaster X2(GS) doesn't do (probably for the same reasons as the first problem).

The proper solution would be to modify the firmware on Dreamblaster X2(GS) to advertise two embedded midi output ports. That would make the second port available on all operating systems without needing to hack the drivers.

It doesn't make much sense because the first edition isn't sold anymore and the second edition doesn't have audio output jack which limits the use when connected using USB.

It would make more sense on Dreamblaster X16 which has 4 midi ports (64 midi channels) according to the documentation.

Hi,
Thanks for your answer, it sounds logical.
I have not realized so far that X2GS SE has left line-out behind. This way its USB MIDI connection has really limited functionality.
But as you have said the X16 versions still have line-out and 4 available Midi ports so the multi-port USB MIDI problem is still relevant for them.
I wonder if Dreamblaster can find out a solution for this problem since the X16 is so powerful that it should not be considered as a device "just for retro-gaming".

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Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi
VST Midi Driver Midi Mapper

Reply 298 of 307, by Rawit

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Happy new year everybody! About those "F5 nn" messages, I'm I correct to assume those don't get transferred correctly when using an USB to MIDI adapter? I use a Lekato USB to MIDI adapter in combination with a ChiLL III board and an X2GS but Falcosoft MidiPlayer hangs at an attempt to play a 32 ch. file.

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Reply 299 of 307, by Falcosoft

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Rawit wrote on 2024-01-01, 13:38:

Happy new year everybody! About those "F5 nn" messages, I'm I correct to assume those don't get transferred correctly when using an USB to MIDI adapter? I use a Lekato USB to MIDI adapter in combination with a ChiLL III board and an X2GS but Falcosoft MidiPlayer hangs at an attempt to play a 32 ch. file.

To make sure that the problem is really related to F5/port selection messages you can try to disable this feature by unchecking Main menu -> Compatibility Settings -> Send Port Select Midi events (F5 xx).
But yes, most likely this feature cannot work when any kind of USB Midi is involved and the USB Midi driver itself hangs.
Although when I connect X2GS through USB I cannot reproduce any kind of hangs. It just simply ignores the port select messages.

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