VOGONS


First post, by framebuffer

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I got two cards in a bundle with some other stuff but honestly I'm quite ignorant about ISA sound cards, so I'd need some help to understand what they are and what I can do with them

The first one is a Creative Sound Blaster AWE32 (CT3900) with two memory modules (2x 1MB I think) and a Roland SCB-7 MIDI Daughterboard
The second one is a Guillemot MAXI SOUND 64 (SC8600 V2.0) with a SIMM memory module (8MB I think)

So, I did a little bit of research and they seems to be some good mid 90s sound cards, but can someone expand a little bit on this?
Also, what is the Roland expansion card exactly good for? Is it a professional thing or also used in games?

Since my favorite "retro target period" is 1996-2006 (I know there is little bit of debate what can be called retro and what no, but anyways) I'm not sure if I can use these cards in any of my systems
Is there any reason to use one of those, instead of a SB Live!, in a Win98SE build?

Last question: should I decide to sell them, what should be a fair target price?

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Reply 1 of 11, by sprcorreia

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At one point I had all those cards you got.
The SC8600 is a great card. Onboard synth is close to Roland quality, the ESS chip is great for MS-DOS games and FM is near Yamaha quality. It's my number 1 card.
The SCB-7 is a MIDI module. Many, many games use General Midi for music and Roland was top quality.
The AWE32... I'm not a fan.

Nice cards if you want to run MS-DOS games. If you are focusing in Windows only, there are better options.

Reply 2 of 11, by Gmlb256

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The AWE32 CT3900 has a real Yamaha OPL3 FM synth integrated in the CT1747 chip. It has SB16 compatibility for DOS games that supports 16-bit mixing such as the Crusader series and the MPU-401 is one of the least bugged ones. You can read about the bugs on SB16/AWE sound cards here: Sound Blaster 16 Bugs and Deficiencies Summary. One cool thing that tends to be overlooked is that on certain AWE revisions (CT3900 is one of these) you can add reverb and chorus for the FM synth thru the AWEUTIL TSR.

The EMU8K for MIDI emulation is more useful on Windows 9x environment than DOS since it works with protected mode games and you can use SF2 soundfonts. However there are some DOS games that could sound decent with the AWE card on pure DOS, see the following thread if you are interested: AWEstruck...

The Guillemot Maxi sound card can't tell much about it, but it has an ESS ES1868F chip which has decent SB Pro support and the FM synth is faithful to the real OPL3. There's WSS support for 16-bit mixing but the support in DOS is lackluster compared to the SB16.

That SCB-7 that is connected to the AWE32 card is a WaveBlaster module that can be used for games that supports General MIDI. It can also be connected into the Guillemot Maxi sound card but you must use a ribbon cable due to the RAM memory that is currently installed on it.

You can also use multiple sound cards by connecting the line out from one sound card into the line in from the other one. For example the SB Live! for Windows so you can get EAX and an ISA sound card for the best compatibility with DOS.

Last edited by Gmlb256 on 2021-09-19, 13:23. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 3 of 11, by Joseph_Joestar

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Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-19, 13:15:

The Guillemot Maxi sound card can't tell much about it, but it has an ESS ES1868F chip which has decent SB Pro support and the FM synth is faithful to the real OPL3. There's WSS support for 16-bit mixing but in DOS the support is lackluster compared to the SB16.

Despite what its datasheet claims, ESS 1868F doesn't support WSS. Specifically, DOS games which have WSS as a sound setup option won't work with that card.

However, some later DOS games have an AudioDrive option which usually works with 1868F cards and can provide 16-bit sound. Results vary depending on which sound system the game uses. More details here: Re: ESS AudioDrive (ES1868) - a surprisingly good ISA sound card

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Reply 4 of 11, by Gmlb256

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-09-19, 13:21:
Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-19, 13:15:

The Guillemot Maxi sound card can't tell much about it, but it has an ESS ES1868F chip which has decent SB Pro support and the FM synth is faithful to the real OPL3. There's WSS support for 16-bit mixing but in DOS the support is lackluster compared to the SB16.

Despite what its datasheet claims, ESS 1868F doesn't support WSS. Specifically, DOS games which have WSS as a sound setup option won't work with that card.

However, some later DOS games have an AudioDrive option which usually works with 1868F cards and can provide 16-bit sound. Results vary depending on which sound system the game uses. More details here: Re: ESS AudioDrive (ES1868) - a surprisingly good ISA sound card

True, I recall once a time when I used MPXPLAY on an ESS sound card and it said ESS instead of WSS without the BLASTER environment. I think that people here get the things confused due to many getting annoyed by the bugs found on Creative cards since the SB16 🤣.

It's also one of the very few clones that doesn't lack the low-pass/brickwall filters on SB Pro mode which in my opinion sounds better that without it.

VIA C3 Nehemiah 1.2A @ 1.46 GHz | ASUS P2-99 | 256 MB PC133 SDRAM | GeForce3 Ti 200 64 MB | Voodoo2 12 MB | SBLive! | AWE64 | SBPro2 | GUS

Reply 5 of 11, by bloodem

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Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-19, 13:15:

[...] but the support in DOS is lackluster compared to the SB16.

Can you explain why you think that DOS support is lackluster on ESS AudioDrive cards?
Based on my experience, you can say a lot of things about these ESS cards (like the fact that many had subpar sound quality because they were cheaply built), however "lackluster DOS support" is not one of those things.
Actually, one could say that the SB16 with its single cycle DMA clicking is the lackluster card, compared to many AudioDrives.
I for one have had very good experience with the ESS AudioDrives 1688/1868, I did not encounter a single game that had issues with them.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the SB16 & AWE32 sound cards for what they are, and truth being told, the DMA clicking doesn't bother me too much anyway. Also some of them have very good sound quality (especially my AWE32 CT3980), but these cards are usually very expensive, so the value that an Audiodrive offers is outstanding.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
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Reply 6 of 11, by Gmlb256

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bloodem wrote on 2021-09-19, 13:47:
Can you explain why you think that DOS support is lackluster on ESS AudioDrive cards? Based on my experience, you can say a lot […]
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Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-19, 13:15:

[...] but the support in DOS is lackluster compared to the SB16.

Can you explain why you think that DOS support is lackluster on ESS AudioDrive cards?
Based on my experience, you can say a lot of things about these ESS cards (like the fact that many had subpar sound quality because they were cheaply built), however "lackluster DOS support" is not one of those things.
Actually, one could say that the SB16 with its single cycle DMA clicking is the lackluster card, compared to many AudioDrives.
I for one have had very good experience with the ESS AudioDrives 1688/1868, I did not encounter a single game that had issues with them.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the SB16 & AWE32 sound cards for what they are, and truth being told, the DMA clicking doesn't bother me too much anyway. Also some of them have very good sound quality (especially my AWE32 CT3980), but these cards are usually very expensive, so the value that an Audiodrive offers is outstanding.

The DOS support on ESS AudioDrive cards isn't lackluster, the SB Pro support on the ESS AudioDrive is excellent. This was meant only for 16-bit mixing support on DOS. 😉

I agree about the single-cycle DMA bug on SB16 cards and the ESS sound cards being a lot cheaper currently.

VIA C3 Nehemiah 1.2A @ 1.46 GHz | ASUS P2-99 | 256 MB PC133 SDRAM | GeForce3 Ti 200 64 MB | Voodoo2 12 MB | SBLive! | AWE64 | SBPro2 | GUS

Reply 7 of 11, by bloodem

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Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-19, 13:54:

The DOS support on ESS AudioDrive cards isn't lackluster, the SB Pro support on the ESS AudioDrive is excellent. This was meant only for 16-bit mixing support on DOS. 😉

Ah, OK, I misunderstood what you wrote! 😀
Indeed, 16-bit support is indeed lackluster on the Audiodrives (but it's not something that has ever bothered me). 😀

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
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Reply 8 of 11, by georgel

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Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-19, 13:15:

The EMU8K for MIDI emulation is more useful on Windows 9x environment than DOS since it works with protected mode games and you can use SF2 soundfonts.

Gmlbv286, you are one of the first who learned this is no longer true...If SF2 soundfonts are so important than most likely I could implement that in DOS too. SInce the OP may be unaware:

DOS32AWE - DOS/4G compatible DOS Extender with Sound Blaster AWEUTIL MIDI synthesizer support for Protected mode,VIASB

Reply 9 of 11, by Gmlb256

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georgel wrote on 2021-09-19, 17:19:

Gmlb286, you are one of the first who learned this is no longer true...If SF2 soundfonts are so important than most likely I could implement that in DOS too. SInce the OP may be unaware:

DOS32AWE - DOS/4G compatible DOS Extender with Sound Blaster AWEUTIL MIDI synthesizer support for Protected mode,VIASB

The Release Announcements section on this forum might be the best for awareness. 😀

I could have mentioned it here since it mitigates a major issue when using the EMU8K on DOS. Next time when someone asks I will mention this.

VIA C3 Nehemiah 1.2A @ 1.46 GHz | ASUS P2-99 | 256 MB PC133 SDRAM | GeForce3 Ti 200 64 MB | Voodoo2 12 MB | SBLive! | AWE64 | SBPro2 | GUS

Reply 10 of 11, by framebuffer

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Wow, thanks to all!
So, clearly thing are a little more complex than I though; I guess one can say that both cards are good for DOS games but not much for Windows 9x, right?

Any thoughts on the current value?
I saw some listings on ebay but not sure if they match the realty, I mean, we have people trying to sell a Voodoo5 5500 at $2000 but on proper auction they go for around 3-400$, mostly...

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Reply 11 of 11, by dionb

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framebuffer wrote on 2021-09-19, 21:29:

Wow, thanks to all!
So, clearly thing are a little more complex than I though; I guess one can say that both cards are good for DOS games but not much for Windows 9x, right?

"Not much" isn't doing them justice. They don't do EAX or A3D fancy stuff, but older Win9x games use General MIDI musc, which both can provide (although Windows can too with a softsynth), and they do nice digital audio (but nothing that an AC'97 CODEC couldn't, which is why discrete soundcards started to disappear around the time game audio moved from synthesizing to just playing back samples)

They will however shine in DOS; in a single-cards setup I'd prefer the Maxi Sound 64 (I feel the buggy SB16 range is overrated), but in fact if you can get the resources to play nice together, they complement each other very well, with the Maxi Sound 64 delivering full SBPro2 compatibility and excellent Dream wavetable, and the AWE32 bringing real OPL3 FM synth, SB16 compatibility, AWE and eh... the Roland wavetable daughterboard if you can put up with the hanging note bugs and slowdowns of the CT3900 MIDI interface - but you could put the SCB-7 on the Maxi instead and have bug-free operation

Any thoughts on the current value?
I saw some listings on ebay but not sure if they match the realty, I mean, we have people trying to sell a Voodoo5 5500 at $2000 but on proper auction they go for around 3-400$, mostly...

Quite a lot As usual eBay prices are inflated, but all three boards here are sought-after. and being overrated helps you.

That said, I'd think twice before selling. If you ever change your mind about a DOS system (and your target period by no means rules that out - I ran DOS until 1999) it will cost you more to get them back, and particularly cards of the Maxi Sound 64's calibre are hard to find.