RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2022-03-18, 02:14:

The MPME is another Dream-powered product, but without the GS bank. FWR, the GS-enabled Dream-powered products get more praise and good reviews than the same hardware using GM banks of various sizes.

Do you know what Dream chip is in that unit? I have a MidiPlus Pianobox which has a Dream SAM2635 running inside. I'm not sure what the sample rom is. From reading i think it might be the Cleanwave 8MB. I think it the Pianobox actually really sound good with DOS games. I made a couple of recordings in this post.

Re: What midi modules to cover the most ground? MT32,sc55,sc155, sc55mk2, sc88, alesis nanosynth, others?

The MPME seems to be a SAM2000 DSP, just like the MPPB. It probably is the 2635, as it makes sense for the products to share DSPs and reduce buying costs, and the specs seem to line up.

hmmm, any other remarks or requests for this V3 sound module ?
i'm undecided, not convinced this would be a success for gaming...
i have X5/X8/X16 hardware design ready since long, but without killer gaming soundbank...

For me, the simple answer is No.

Because, while it sounds *really* nice for some styles, if plain old vanilla Doom sounds (at best) mediocre with it, then it cannot possibly be called or marketed as a "killer gaming bank".

dreamblaster wrote on 2022-03-27, 18:20:

hmmm, any other remarks or requests for this V3 sound module ?
i'm undecided, not convinced this would be a success for gaming...
i have X5/X8/X16 hardware design ready since long, but without killer gaming soundbank...

Oliver Hutz seems to be the one behind the V3 and other products that use DREAM DSPs and he has worked for DREAM to create banks and gather samples. He claims to have worked on the GM, GS, and XG sounds, so he's probably a good person to get in touch with if you want a "Dreamblaster GM Bank". Otherwise, most of us will be happy with a large, HQ Roland GS bank, which will cover the gaming aspect of your products and provide a solid GM experience.

https://www.hutz.de/impressum/

RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2022-03-27, 20:42:

Oliver Hutz seems to be the one behind the V3 and other products that use DREAM DSPs and he has worked for DREAM to create banks and gather samples. He claims to have worked on the GM, GS, and XG sounds, so he's probably a good person to get in touch with if you want a "Dreamblaster GM Bank". Otherwise, most of us will be happy with a large, HQ Roland GS bank, which will cover the gaming aspect of your products and provide a solid GM experience.
https://www.hutz.de/impressum/

Hi, Yes, I can confirm Oliver is a nice guy, and I talked to him. Unfortunately he cannot provide a large GM/GS bank for Dreamblaster. He actually referred me to V3 sound.
So I am trying out V3 sound module as a first step, after talking to them. I will respect confidentiality about any details, but their module sure does have excellent solo sounds.
Is the conclusion that a great musician's GM bank is not necessarily a great gaming GM bank ? Would we need at least full GS support ?
Even then, does it make sense without official Roland samples (like in X2GS) ? Let me hear your ideas...

If you need to spend money, pay the 70 bucks for the SoundCanvas VA and you get a module that's REALLY meant for gaming. Maybe it's not 100% accurate, but close enough for what it needs to do.

A musician's sound is not the same as the sound for a game. The V3 and it's sounds are intended for music performances, where a keyboard would be used in place of (insert name of instrument) played by a musician. If you look at it's 20-something banks, you'll see that it goes above and beyond a GM bank, with sounds that mimic the intricacies of live instrument performances. Let's say I wanted to use the V3 with DOOM. Everyone knows DOOM is a GM game, with no GS extensions. Now, DOOM should sound pretty good on any decent GM synth as far as we know, yes? This is because GM is GM is GM and we know what the 128 instruments are and how they sound, depending on the quality of the synth. The V3's extensive and expansive banks are not regular GM banks. The device is GM compliant, but the banks extend and expand the basic sound of GM in such a way that in order to properly utilize them and get the right sound from the module, you have to re-sequence the MIDI specifically FOR the many banks of the V3, like you would if you wanted to enjoy GS or XG sound enhancements with DOOM's MIDI files. While you can certainly play DOOM MIDI files through a GS or XG unit, it will sound good simply because those both provide good and proper GM by design and they sound even better when you modify the files to take advantage of XG and GS capabilities, whereas getting that on the V3 requires you to do a lot of work because it's performance capabilities are segmented by the extensive and divded banks, requiring you to do sequencing work to bring them out. When the guy behind QuestStudios started putting out MIDI files, he had to re-sequence the original MIDI output from the games and modify the source to make them sound great on the widely available hardware of the day, which meant SC-55/SC-88/MT-32 optimized versions for the hardcore enthusiasts, Sound Blaster versions for the Joe Schmoes with basic Wavetable, and XG versions for those living on the edge in the late 90's-early 2000's.

I can only speak for myself, but I think that I only really need a good HQ GS-compliant bank, because that covers pretty much every MIDI input (game or file) that isn't XG, MT-32, or OPL/FM sourced and GS already provides great GM by design, so long as the sound samples are good, which they seem to be with the DREAM-licensed GS bank offerings.

For me, if something can impressively, out of the box, perform the triumvirate of Doom, Descent, and Warcraft 2, then it's proven it covers the necessary worlds of gaming Rock, Electronic, and Classical. And can do GS competently (in Descent).

If it's possible to meet that essential gaming brief and somehow go a level above the X2GS in overall impact, well that would be very impressive and a desirable device. But, as mentioned, the V3 as-is does not really fit that brief, and I for one would not be purchasing that particular incarnation for gaming purposes.

I would love something that is fully GS compatible as it would open up a lot more games. I have talked to a good number of Japanese system collectors who like your designs, but Japan is dominated by GS, so GM only simply isn't enough for them.

But, X2GS exists, so we don't need another SC55 clone imo. Something that sounds like V3 but with full GS compatibility would be a must buy for me.

I've listened through the samples again, and I'm warming to elements of it.

With Doom and Duke, it's really only the guitars that are rubbing me wrong.

With ROTT, it's kind of everything. There's a lot of inherently cheesy sounds in this composition, and older modules just pull it off in a much more cohesive fashion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6erC93RvZeI

I've said my bit on Star Wars. I don't think it sounds good on any MIDI device, and the V3 doesn't change that. That's not the V3's fault.

Warcraft 2 - I think this sounds spectacular, personally.

Settlers 2 - As Warcraft shows, the V3's potential for orchestral stuff is big. But this one falls over in a few places. The opening flute melody is too understated, lacking attack or something. The xylophone (I think) at about 0:26 seems to come in an octave low. Overall it's coming off a little soft and not really working compared to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZguUBX9b_E

It feels like a great bank could be crafted out of these sounds, but I have no idea what that process involves.

[edit]

Is there a definitive list of games with true GS support? Not looking to start lists in this thread - surely there is a thread or page somewhere, but my searches aren't turning one up. MobyGames has a category but I'm not sure it's reliable (apparently it just lists games with Sound Canvas in the options, which doesn't necessarily confirm GS functionality).

"Is the conclusion that a great musician's GM bank is not necessarily a great gaming GM bank ? Would we need at least full GS support ?"
100%. You can see many examples of this in hardware synths. I don't think advanced GS support is necessary, but at least basic SC-55 level is required - even Space Quest 5 uses GS drum kits and most Sierra GM games use GS drum kit notes.

Does the V3 have within it's extensive banks, 1 x guitar that sounds good with the Doom MIDIs?

That is to ask, if patch assignment were trivially altered, could the V3 fit the bill?

Pierre32 wrote on 2022-03-27, 22:33:

Is there a definitive list of games with true GS support? Not looking to start lists in this thread - surely there is a thread or page somewhere, but my searches aren't turning one up. MobyGames has a category but I'm not sure it's reliable (apparently it just lists games with Sound Canvas in the options, which doesn't necessarily confirm GS functionality).

Not that I'm aware. + I'm sure we've Googled up similar things. Patchy bits-n-pieces here and there. It sure would be good to see one though, if it's not already out there.

SuperDeadite wrote on 2022-03-27, 22:21:

But, X2GS exists, so we don't need another SC55 clone imo.

Pretty much agree. The goal/brief of this quest should be (and is, as far as I'm aware) to find a high-end sweet spot for gaming MIDI, which pushes the boundaries of what we're used to. The V3 does demonstrate what's possible in some ways.

As far as games that use GS go, the majority of them are Asian titles, as the Roland SC modules were intended for and sold primarily in the Asian market, to musicians and gaming enthusiasts with cash to burn. The US and Europe had a smaller list of titles, namely the ones most of us here played in the late 80's and early 90's, such as Sierra and LucasArts titles. Due to the difference between sound samples used in the modules and SysEx voodoo, it's said that titles only sound right and proper on the module used to compose the music to begin with, so that is something of an issue between early GS-optimized titles and later GS hardware and vice-versa.

Because the Roland modules did not sell well or widely in the US or UK, as they were not available outside of direct ordering from catalogues or from a music store, most English-speaking users did have good MIDI available until the soft-synth days of the late 90's, when Yamaha and Roland put out their respective products to compete with the built-in "starter wavetable synth" option that was built into many new soundcards or came with the bundled software. Eventually, many soundcards came with the Yamaha XG soft-synths or were powered by Yamaha DSPs, while Roland kept their products within the music industry, as they had no foothold in the soundcard market outside of the professional side of things and that was a small share they had in comparison to competitors.

https://youtu.be/ZsAQQzuSmpw
Regarding GS support, here is my ancient video. Street Fighter 2', Super Street Fighter 2, and Ghouls'n Ghosts are GM, the rest are true GS. Also this video is quite old, there are quite a few more I missed.

Of course these are all X68000 titles, but every single X68000 emulator (including MISTER) support real MIDI output.

If you're looking to push the boundaries of MIDI for gaming, there's really no other choice but Soundfonts and other bank tech. When Soundfont was developed, the idea was that you'd have whatever samples you needed for MIDI use at your fingertips, regardless of the instrument list in GM or GS (later, XG) and be able to use those in the place of the standard instrument list and GM/GS sounds. For Soundfont use, you'd have a specific bank of samples for a specific MIDI file/stream and that bank would be loaded with that MIDI file/stream, in the playback software or game engine. Unfortunately, that didn't take at all for gaming due to the limits of tech at the time and the complexity of implementing it, so the tech was never used for anything in that market beyond mediocre attempts to provide good wavetable GM MIDI on various Soundblaster cards or approximation of GS/MT-32 MIDI. Now, you could certainly do it because of the tech available, but I don't see anyone professionally looking to bring back MIDI for game music, when they can just use MP3s from work done on a DAW. Apart from the use of banks and sampling, I could only see things being pushed forward if Yamaha resurrected XG MIDI and expanded it with additional levels that fully implemented their synth tech, and put out soft-synth offerings with that.

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-03-27, 23:11:

The goal/brief of this quest should be (and is, as far as I'm aware) to find a high-end sweet spot for gaming MIDI, which pushes the boundaries of what we're used to.

Exactly !

I always liked the Buran Bank on the X2. I recorded Doom on it a good while ago, and have just listented to the Buran Bank against the V3 and i must say i prefer the Buran Bank (well for this particualr track). It sounds more lively and alive if i can phrase it like that. I should record some more games on it!

https://youtu.be/PofBorb8Ui8

More recordings of the Buran bank would be nice. I would use the QuestStudios MIDI files to show what that bank can do. The Leisure Suit Larry and Police Quest individual files should be a good representation of more mainstream sounding music, while the Laura Bow files would be a great showing for the Jazz aspects. Space Quest 5 music would be a good test for orchestral and modern mixed together, while Quest For Glory and King's Quest would be good for classical music tests.

dreamblaster wrote on 2022-03-27, 21:01:

Hi, Yes, I can confirm Oliver is a nice guy, and I talked to him. Unfortunately he cannot provide a large GM/GS bank for Dreamb […]
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RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2022-03-27, 20:42:

Oliver Hutz seems to be the one behind the V3 and other products that use DREAM DSPs and he has worked for DREAM to create banks and gather samples. He claims to have worked on the GM, GS, and XG sounds, so he's probably a good person to get in touch with if you want a "Dreamblaster GM Bank". Otherwise, most of us will be happy with a large, HQ Roland GS bank, which will cover the gaming aspect of your products and provide a solid GM experience.
https://www.hutz.de/impressum/

Hi, Yes, I can confirm Oliver is a nice guy, and I talked to him. Unfortunately he cannot provide a large GM/GS bank for Dreamblaster. He actually referred me to V3 sound.
So I am trying out V3 sound module as a first step, after talking to them. I will respect confidentiality about any details, but their module sure does have excellent solo sounds.
Is the conclusion that a great musician's GM bank is not necessarily a great gaming GM bank ? Would we need at least full GS support ?
Even then, does it make sense without official Roland samples (like in X2GS) ? Let me hear your ideas...

From a technological point of view, a modern wavetable card with waveblaster header should provide sound diversity (for ex.: all actual Dream Sound bank) in a minimum of "resources" (IRQ, I/O port and ISA/PCI slot) constrained by retro material.

So in my dream, a SAM5916 IC with two external memory ports divided into four identical memory areas on each port:
- memory area 1: V3 Sonority XL 1.01 Variation sound bank (Sound bank 55) or General Midi sound bank (sound bank 0) + DrumKits (Kit1 and 62, or all kits)
- memory area 2: DreamGS sound bank (e.g. X2GS sound bank)
- memory area 3: Dream Cleanwave sound bank with MT32 variations
- memory area 4: user free zone
Two midi inputs, via waveblaster header, directed to the same memory area (eg: memory area 1) = 32 Midi channels, or to two different memory areas. And digital output.

From the point of view of retro gaming, the quality of the sound samples and their perception by each of us, and even from an economic point of view, I remain attentive.