It maybe possible to use nvidia inspector to force additional driver settings or down sampling.
My GTS 250 has super sampling options in the driver but my GTX 960 doesn't. I am not sure which driver version removed the option from the control panel.
duga3 wrote on 2021-01-21, 19:51:And the color issue is maybe due to stretching the image? Otherwise I can't explain it.
No, the problem is because of this:
https://www.pcgamer.com/nvidia-cards-dont-ful … dmiheres-a-fix/
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/d … sue-in-hdmi-dp/
And here's why the above problems can affect you if you are using XP:
1. NVIDIA never fixed this HDMI color range issue in XP drivers so HDMI always gives wrong colors.
(The mentioned registry fix does not work in XP either).
2. NVIDIA XP drivers can falsely identify displays as HDTV. So you can get the same wrong colors as on HDMI even on Displayport.
Anyway to Change Monitor Type Shown in Nvidia Control Panel?
Falcosoft wrote on 2021-01-22, 00:30:
Thanks, I have updated that thread with my own experience on 980 Ti.
Btw I have no 16-235 color crushing issue over DVI (single-link cable) so I am assuming this issue is only via HDMI/DP and not all digital interfaces (which would include DVI).
duga3 wrote on 2021-01-22, 13:14:Falcosoft wrote on 2021-01-22, 00:30:Thanks, I have updated that thread with my own experience on 980 Ti.
Btw I have no 16-235 color crushing issue over DVI (single-link cable) so I am assuming this issue is only via HDMI/DP and not all digital interfaces (which would include DVI).
I have a GTX750 Ti under XP with driver 347.something (I forget) that looks like it does 16-235 over either HDMI or single-link DVI to my HDMI equipped monitor (Acer EB321HQ) when set to RGB. At first glance, switching to YCBCR 4:4:4 produces an image of normal brightness but causes banding .
I will be doing some experiments with an Accel active Displayport to DVI dual-link adapter (model B087B-002B) soon .
EDIT : I know that my monitor does not support dual-link DVI (single link is enough for its 1080p native resolution), but this is the only active DP to DVI or HDMI adapter that I have .
Hello,
I had the same problem with my previous monitor and resolved it by using a specific (older) driver version where one could choose "Full RGB (0-255)" in the control panel. Not sure which one, but it was before 353.62.
Also, while searching for solutions with newer drivers, I saved the attached files and bookmarked this link: https://pcmonitors.info/articles/correcting-h … a-and-amd-gpus/
Maybe this turns helpful to you.
Wanderer wrote on 2021-01-23, 07:41:Hello, I had the same problem with my previous monitor and resolved it by using a specific (older) driver version where one coul […]
Hello,
I had the same problem with my previous monitor and resolved it by using a specific (older) driver version where one could choose "Full RGB (0-255)" in the control panel. Not sure which one, but it was before 353.62.
Also, while searching for solutions with newer drivers, I saved the attached files and bookmarked this link: https://pcmonitors.info/articles/correcting-h … a-and-amd-gpus/
Maybe this turns helpful to you.
Thanks for the input, but are you certain that the full RGB (0-255) option was in Windows XP ? When I first set up this machine, I remember trying several drivers before settling for my current one (347.xx) as the latest XP driver gave me a black screen on this monitor over HDMI. I actually worked my way forward in time from an arbitrarily old version that worked up until I got to 347.x , either because it was the last one that worked or because I got tired of testing (cannot remember which). I don't recall ever seeing full RGB versus limited RGB as an option in Windows XP .
I briefly tested with my previously mentioned Displayport to DVI DL adapter, and it seems to work at full range RGB according to my eyeballs (Nvidia control panel gives a choice between RGB ,YCBCR 4:4:4 and YCBCR 4:2:2). I was also was able to confirm that luma values above 235 and below 16 are actually visible and individually distinguishable on screen, which could either mean that 0-255 is being passed properly or that the Nvidia hardware/software is squeezing and remapping 0-255 into 16-235 .
To more formally test that, I have on order
- an HDMI splitter
- some more HDMI cables (I managed to run out)
- an extra active Displayport to HDMI converter (just in case )
My intent is to feed the Displayport to HDMI or DVI converter output into the HDMI splitter to then feed both my monitor and my E1S DVI capture card to try to determine
a) if the output is actually 0-255 in Luma range
b) assuming a is true, if the original luma information is not being "squeezed/remapped" to 16-235 and then potentially "expanded" back to 0-255 somewhere along the chain .
Wish me fun and luck . 😉
Note : the use of the splitter is purely for convenience and later capture usage .
darry wrote on 2021-01-23, 08:10:are you certain that the full RGB (0-255) option was in Windows XP ?
No, not certain, I had a dual-boot system with XP and 7. I remember that both correctly showed black color with the same driver version.
Wish you fun and luck! 😀
Here a kepler may have another advantage over maxwell, other than the previously mentioned kepler being actually faster than maxwell with these old XP drivers (which I cannot confirm right now), kepler being older will support wider range of driver versions, especially the early 600-series keplers, those should go quite far back with drivers... but we'll need to try out all driver versions to see if theres any older drivers that are not as locked out for features and settings as 368.81 is. Till then I guess I'd recommend using an AMD Radeon card of some sort with catalyst 12.x driver for win XP on widescreen LCD, and adding a CRT for nvidia builds
p.s. to be a bit of a showoff, here's my current "main" PC - i7-3770K + gtx 980 and auzentech x-fi hometheater hd, using 32" 1440p 144hz LCD + 21" IBM P275 "trinitron" CRT (that can do 1600x1200 at 100hz), I use a multiboot of win7 as the main daily driver, win10 for the rare case of something being too new to work on win7, and winXP for old games and software. For DOS and win9x I have some retro PCs outside the pic. I will very soon be pushing this build further, upgrading the 3770K to Xeon E5-1680v2, and I hope to eventually upgrade the gtx980 to a titan X
darry wrote on 2021-01-23, 08:10:Thanks for the input, but are you certain that the full RGB (0-255) option was in Windows XP ? When I first set up this machine, I remember trying several drivers before settling for my current one (347.xx) as the latest XP driver gave me a black screen on this monitor over HDMI. I actually worked my way forward in time from an arbitrarily old version that worked up until I got to 347.x , either because it was the last one that worked or because I got tired of testing (cannot remember which). I don't recall ever seeing full RGB versus limited RGB as an option in Windows XP .
Using the HDMI output with a GTX 960 and driver version 388.19 on Windows 7, I get the limited RGB issue and I need to scroll down to PC 1920x1080 to get the full range.
You are correct about Windows XP (same card w/ HDMI output, driver 368.81), I do not get the limited range problem, using SD 1920x1080 which is the recommended option. Under PC the highest resolution available is 1680x1050; I don't see any option to change the RGB range.
Wanderer wrote on 2021-01-23, 09:14:darry wrote on 2021-01-23, 08:10:are you certain that the full RGB (0-255) option was in Windows XP ?
No, not certain, I had a dual-boot system with XP and 7. I remember that both correctly showed black color with the same driver version.
Wish you fun and luck! 😀
Thank you, I will likely be able to run some tests Sunday and will post the results .
cde wrote on 2021-01-23, 13:10:darry wrote on 2021-01-23, 08:10:Thanks for the input, but are you certain that the full RGB (0-255) option was in Windows XP ? When I first set up this machine, I remember trying several drivers before settling for my current one (347.xx) as the latest XP driver gave me a black screen on this monitor over HDMI. I actually worked my way forward in time from an arbitrarily old version that worked up until I got to 347.x , either because it was the last one that worked or because I got tired of testing (cannot remember which). I don't recall ever seeing full RGB versus limited RGB as an option in Windows XP .
Using the HDMI output with a GTX 960 and driver version 388.19 on Windows 7, I get the limited RGB issue and I need to scroll down to PC 1920x1080 to get the full range.
You are correct about Windows XP (same card w/ HDMI output, driver 368.81), I do not get the limited range problem, using SD 1920x1080 which is the recommended option. Under PC the highest resolution available is 1680x1050; I don't see any option to change the RGB range.
Thank you for your input . I will add the 368.81 driver as another potential variable in my tests .
I find this subject interesting for 3 reasons .
a) a lot of people experience it and complain about it while having come to the conclusion that there is no fix.
b) some people do not seem to experience it at all
c) so far, AFAIK, pretty much every account of it either working or not has never been tested quantatively. I aim to change that, as much as I can .
d) I seem to be in group a (except I have not concluded that there is no fix/workaround)
I understand that other than driver version and the output connection type, there might be multiple variables at play here including, but not limited to, GPU model type/vBIOS version, monitor model(TMDS receiver type?) and EDID . I won't test all scenarios as even though I do have 2 different GTX750 Ti cards (one with Displayport), I will likely not be buying any more cards (nor do I have infinite time and motivation).
The initial scope of testing will be limited to
1) observing the issue and quantifying it through video capture and analysis
2) trying to find a workaround and confirming it actually works through video capture and analysis
I may expand the scope later, if I am motivated enough .
I may be wrong, but it seems people started complaining to nVIDIA back in 2014 or earlier about the limited RGB range issue. It's possible they released a fix in 2015 or 2016 which would have made its way into the 368.81 driver. Another possibility is as you mention that the monitor's EDID is a factor here, but I'm not completely sure that's the case (otherwise Windows 7 wouldn't have defaulted to Limited Range). It's unfortunate that this newer driver is incompatible with your 750 Ti.
duga3 wrote on 2021-01-21, 22:29:Do you have one? If yes, can you see more anti-aliasing options than one would normally see on Geforce?
I tried a Quadro K2200 with .inf-modded GeForce driver v368.81. There were extra options in the control panel, including AA of up to 64x.
cde wrote on 2021-01-23, 14:03:I may be wrong, but it seems people started complaining to nVIDIA back in 2014 or earlier about the limited RGB range issue. It's possible they released a fix in 2015 or 2016 which would have made its way into the 368.81 driver. Another possibility is as you mention that the monitor's EDID is a factor here, but I'm not completely sure that's the case (otherwise Windows 7 wouldn't have defaulted to Limited Range). It's unfortunate that this newer driver is incompatible with your 750 Ti.
I don't think 368.81 is actually incompatible with my card (at least not according to Nvidia), but this driver produced no image over HDMI with my monitor when I last tested . It may work over Displayport or even over DVI . EDIT: Or with a different monitor, or with a different EDID (I am currently using both of the EDID emulators that I have, so I doubt I will test that specific scenario) .
God Of Gaming wrote on 2021-01-23, 09:17:...kepler being actually faster than maxwell with these old XP drivers...
I don't know about that but for me that is less important than the fact that Nvidia Profile Inspector wasn't working in 352.86 which makes 980 Ti not really usable there.
You have a very nice battlestation. Especially the "beige side". That is one high-end CRT right there!
Wanderer wrote on 2021-01-23, 21:17:duga3 wrote on 2021-01-21, 22:29:Do you have one? If yes, can you see more anti-aliasing options than one would normally see on Geforce?
I tried a Quadro K2200 with .inf-modded GeForce driver v368.81. There were extra options in the control panel, including AA of up to 64x.
Thanks for the info, I think I have only seen 64x on SLIed cards so far (but SLI is usuable only for a cinematic non-interactive experience). I think I have some old Quadro card around.
Hanamichi wrote on 2021-01-21, 23:23:Add an old mid-high end quadro in the system alongside the 980 Ti if you have one. Install Quadro drivers and sometimes that unlocks the higher AA for all cards.
Not sure if it persists if you remove the quadro but leave the quadro drivers installed.
Interesting idea. I think I still have some old Quadro card around here (FX1300?), maybe that will do the trick. I will try it later.
I did some more testing of digital interface on 368.81 with 980 Ti:
60Hz PC LCD monitor over single-link DVI
- no color issues
- NOT able to set custom resolutions, the option is greyed out
- it is detected as SDTV (Standard Definition TV), you can tell by the "Connector" options which only show "S-Video" or "Composite".
60Hz PC LCD monitor over dual-link VGA (analog signal) (the same monitor as above)
- No color issues
- ABLE to set custom resolutions, the option is NOT greyed out
- Image is a little blurry but that is to be expected with analog signal (I don't mind personally)
- Able to create and correctly resolve 85Hz (panel is rated at 60Hz!) custom resolutions (but not at native resolution, must be like 40% smaller)
60Hz LCD HDTV over HDMI
- No color issues
- ABLE to set custom resolutions, the option is NOT greyed out
- 1440x1080p working
- In NVCP there are still no scaling options at all (with or without using custom resolutions)
- I was able to set settings on the TV to not stretch non-widescreen resolutions (1440x1080p) but instead use normal 1:1 pixel mapping. Stretching 4:3 could be done to maintain aspect ratio.
- 16:10 resolutions were negatively stretched (the TV is 16:9), even when set to map pixels normally 1:1. Resolutions of 16:9 and 4:3 were fine in this regard.
edit: small updates, gotten 1440x1080p to work in the "60Hz LCD HDTV over HDMI" after all. Just had to first switch to 1920x1080p mode in the TV section of resolutions in NVCP. (The "PC" version of the same res did not work on the TV at all).
Probably depends on what kind of monitor is used on how good of an experience you gonna get. Back then I used a 24" 1080p 120hz Eizo FG2421 over displayport, which 368.81 was I think detecting as a HDTV, custom resolution button was disabled, and the color issues, actually kinda weird, it was probably 0-255 not 35-225 or whatever, because I downloaded some test image with white, light gray, dark gray and black squares supposed to be used to confirm which color range it is, and I could make out all 4 squares so it was probably 0-255, but even still, the colors looked more washed out than they did under win7. And the worst thing was that even when making 1440x1080 at 60hz trough reg edit, the monitor would stretch that image to 16:9, and with missing gpu scaling options, I couldnt get it to "preserve aspect ratio" like I could on win7. That was when I added the CRT to resolve all that.
60Hz LCD HDTV over HDMI
- No color issues
HDTV by default uses reduced RGB range, actually NVIDIA's XP driver defaults are optimized for HDTV displays.
God Of Gaming wrote on 2021-01-24, 10:10:Probably depends on what kind of monitor is used on how good of an experience you gonna get. Back then I used a 24" 1080p 120hz Eizo FG2421 over displayport, which 368.81 was I think detecting as a HDTV, custom resolution button was disabled, and the color issues, actually kinda weird, it was probably 0-255 not 35-225 or whatever, because I downloaded some test image with white, light gray, dark gray and black squares supposed to be used to confirm which color range it is, and I could make out all 4 squares so it was probably 0-255, but even still, the colors looked more washed out than they did under win7.
That test images are fundamentally incapable to test this issue. They could only detect the 'reversed problem' that is when a full range RGB signal is sent to a reduced range display (HDTV). In case of this problem when a reduced range signal is sent to a full range display (PC monitor) the problem is not black/white crash but too light blacks at the low end and too faint whites at the high end (regarding the 4 squares in test image the shades are more distinguishable than should be).
I see, so maybe it was 16-235 under XP after all. Oh well, different monitors will probably give you different experience with this issue, but to be on the safe side, go amd catalyst 12.x instead of nvidia 368.81 😀
Serious question:
It seems like you guys are willing to use older ATI/AMD drivers to make things work, so why not older NVIDIA drivers? The v2XX.XX range work fine with the 500 series cards. 600 series and newer need v3XX.XX drivers.
I've had good luck with v285.58 and my 560 Ti card.
Kinda the point here is to use a card that is good for modern gaming under win7 or even win10 in addition to having winXP compatibility, for multiboot builds. Particularly cards like 780ti, 980ti and HD 7970 / R9 280X can run all win7-era games maxed out, and most modern win10 games on at least medium settings, and have winXP drivers available allowing to have one machine be jack of all trades. GTX 500 series cards are so outdated they will only play older games fine. They don't even have any new driver releases for a couple of years now, causing them to have graphics artefacts in plenty of modern games. They can do good for a retro gaming exclusive build, but I think if the point of a build would be to be only used for retro gaming, it might make sense to go for something even older than that, to ensure better retro game compatibility. I can't state any particular affected titles, but there's probably a cut-off point for compatibility at the end of dx10 era hardware with gtx 285 / hd 4890, and another cut-off point for compatibility at the end of dx9 era with ati x1950 / nvidia 7000 series. There's probably some games that will not work correctly after passing one of those cut-off points. Star Wars Republic Commando had broken bump mapping when played on anything newer than ati x1950 / nvidia 7000, thankfully theres a fanmade fix for the issue, but some other affected games might not have one
