I just tested Need for Speed II Special Edition in Glide mode. This game originally only used software rendering, while Glide support was added in the Special Edition release. The Glide version has several extra effects when compared to software rendering, including the use of table fog:

Need For Speed II Special Edition (Last Resort track)

All weather effects, including rain and fog, are completely absent when the software renderer is used. Glide mode also has some extra shadows.

That's an incredible. It's like night and day between those two renderers. This is a great comparison.

Look like you get extra detail as well? The vine's hanging down for example have leaves in the 2nd screenshot that are missing from the first?

I've also been checking Test Drive 5 for table fog. The game is patched to version 5.1.1 and there's a fogging setting under options. However, when I turn that on, I still don't see any fog in the game. This is on a Voodoo3 card, and I've tested both the D3D and 3DFX executables.

Does anyone have any insight on how to get the fog to show up in Test Drive 5? Is it only present on a specific track maybe?

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-03-26, 17:59:

I finally added the full version of Need for Speed 4: High Stakes to my physical game collection, so I did some more table fog t […]
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I finally added the full version of Need for Speed 4: High Stakes to my physical game collection, so I did some more table fog testing. Note that the NFS4 tagline is "Road Challenge" in the UK rather than "High Stakes", but it's the same game nonetheless. In the full version, it's much easier to line up comparison screenshots with the fog effect, than it was in the demo. For testing purposes, both "Weather" and "Fog" must be set to "On" in the game options and track settings. FYI, the track "Celtic Ruins" makes heavy use of table fog, and that's where my screenshots are from.

Graphics cards tested:

• 3DFX Voodoo3 2000, using 3DFX reference drivers version 1.07.00
• Nvidia GeForce FX 5900XT using Nvidia reference drivers version 56.64
• ATi Radeon 9250 using ATi Catalyst reference drivers version 6.2

Games tested:

• Need For Speed 4: High Stakes + latest official patch 4.50

Need For Speed 4: High Stakes (Celtic Ruins track)

It's easy to spot the missing fog effect on the Radeon card, while both the Voodoo 3 and the GeForce FX display it correctly. From what I've seen, this game makes much more use of table fog than its predecessors.

The funny thing worth mentioning regarding nVIDIA cards & NFS4 is that, if you disable Table fog emulation in the nVIDIA control panel, this game will actually be completely broken, unless you disable the "fog" option in the video options (missing textures, flickering, the whole shebang). Not sure if it happens with all drivers / cards, though.

bloodem wrote on 2023-03-27, 09:53:

The funny thing worth mentioning regarding nVIDIA cards & NFS4 is that, if you disable Table fog emulation in the nVIDIA control panel, this game will actually be completely broken, unless you disable the "fog" option in the video options (missing textures, flickering, the whole shebang). Not sure if it happens with all drivers / cards, though.

Heh, that looks wild!

I did have to use 56.64 drivers on my GeForce FX 5900XT, since NFS4 crashes with the good old 45.23 version, at least on that card.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-03-26, 21:55:

I just tested Need for Speed II Special Edition in Glide mode. This game originally only used software rendering, while Glide support was added in the Special Edition release. The Glide version has several extra effects when compared to software rendering, including the use of table fog:

All weather effects, including rain and fog, are completely absent when the software renderer is used. Glide mode also has some extra shadows.

Did you notice the game looking washed out in Glide? I tested NFS2 SE few weeks ago with V3 3000 and while I definitely did notice the weather effects and some better textures, the image got so washed out it ruined the whole thing. Even main menu had way better color depth in software. I couldn't fix it by adjusting brightness or gamma, so just I assumed the game forces some way too high gamma value and there's nothing you can do about it?

Sombrero wrote on 2023-03-27, 11:25:

Did you notice the game looking washed out in Glide? I tested NFS2 SE few weeks ago with V3 3000 and while I definitely did notice the weather effects and some better textures, the image got so washed out it ruined the whole thing. Even main menu had way better color depth in software. I couldn't fix it by adjusting brightness or gamma, so just I assumed the game forces some way too high gamma value and there's nothing you can do about it?

Maybe it's the Voodoo3 + early Glide game thing, just like with Tomb Raider?

I did briefly try NFS2:SE on my Voodoo1 as well, but the washed out colors were still present. It's possible that I could have tweaked it a bit on that card using different drivers and/or gamma settings, but I didn't bother with it any further at this time.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-03-27, 11:38:

Maybe it's the Voodoo3 + early Glide game thing, just like with Tomb Raider?

I did briefly try NFS2:SE on my Voodoo1 as well, but the washed out colors were still present. It's possible that I could have tweaked it a bit on that card using different drivers and/or gamma settings, but I didn't bother with it any further at this time.

Yeah, I wasn't happy when I saw how TR looked with V3 using Glide, I wasn't yet aware of that particular issue then. Too bad there isn't a way to tweak it with V3 like there seems to be with original Voodoo.

Not a big deal I guess, I like the crunchy software look of Tomb Raider (I've been playing the PS1 version for decades now after all) and the driving physics of NFS2 turned out to be a bit too quirky for my taste these days.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-03-27, 12:16:

Yeah, I wasn't happy when I saw how TR looked with V3 using Glide, I wasn't yet aware of that particular issue then. Too bad there isn't a way to tweak it with V3 like there seems to be with original Voodoo.

Not a big deal I guess, I like the crunchy software look of Tomb Raider (I've been playing the PS1 version for decades now after all) and the driving physics of NFS2 turned out to be a bit too quirky for my taste these days.

I just retested NFS2:SE on my Voodoo1 and the gamma settings do seem to work on that card. With the gamma sliders set to 1.0 and the in-game brightness set to 1, the picture does become slightly more vibrant. For the record, the default gamma setting on my Voodoo1 was 1.7 before I lowered it to 1.0. Not sure how well HyperSnapDX can capture this in a screenshot, but here you go:

BTW, Phil has a page and a video showcasing how various gamma settings on a Voodoo1 affect Tomb Raider.

well.... PioneerEA Canada COULD'VE put vertex lighting and fog in their software renderer to be around the feature parity. It's something Magic Carpet did ages earlier.

That would have required time, knowledge, expertise, and money. I'm sure most people are the time didn't know any better anyways.

bloodem wrote on 2022-07-21, 10:49:

I played today with one of the overkill Win 98 systems in my hometown, which has a Radeon X850XT (Catalyst version 6.2, default installation, no registry tweaks).
I remembered that NFS High Stakes had issues with Catalyst 6.2 (it crashed to desktop immediately - just like with newer nVIDIA drivers), so I've decided to pursue this further to see if I can find a solution.
Finally, I found a patch (the unofficial NFS High Stakes XP 2.1 patch), which, among other things, also "improves the effects" and the game's compatibility with WinXP.

I tried this fan-made patch today, since you graciously provided it. 😀 It does restore the fog in NFS4 on ATi cards, and the end result looks pretty good to me. However, it is not rendered exactly as in the original game, at least on my Radeon 9250:

The changes are fairly minor, and I doubt anyone would be bothered by them during actual gameplay. I did notice that the glow of the rear lights is different with the fan patch too.

Interesting findings! Truthfully, I did not bother doing an actual comparison, because it looked good enough to me.
I do think I still prefer how the fog looks on the nVIDIA card (though the subtle fog on the ATI card is still quite pleasing to the eye). But those tail lights, though... damn! I never noticed how exaggerated they were originally. 😁 I definitely think they look much better with the fan-made patch.

I looked here, even GeForce 4 or some FX cards may show something wrong. In addition, you need to install certain drivers. GeForce 6 can show fog, but it can't show 8-bit textures, the same for some ATI cards. Can you give a recommendation, which card to choose after all? Is it possible to fix 8-bit textures on card later than FX series with patches or wrappers?

nuvyi wrote on 2023-04-03, 05:38:

I looked here, even GeForce 4 or some FX cards may show something wrong.

To clarify, both GeForce 4 and GeForce FX cards have proper table fog and paletted texture support. However, a couple of games (e.g. Need for Speed 3 and Carmageddon 2) only use table fog when running in Glide mode. This means that you need a Voodoo card or a Glide wrapper if you want fog in those particular games.

GeForce 6 can show fog, but it can't show 8-bit textures

GeForce 6 series cards are not recommended for Win9x because they need newer drivers which are incompatible with some older games. This is in addition to their missing paletted texture support. Table fog works fine on those cards.

the same for some ATI cards

ATi Radeon cards don't support table fog or paletted textures under Win9x. Table fog support can be partially restored through registry tweaks, but that doesn't work in all cases and for all games. The only way to get perfect table fog support on a Radeon card is to play games under WinXP using Catalyst drivers version 7.11 or newer. Paletted texture support on Radeon cards cannot be restored through newer drivers or registry tweaks.

Can you give a recommendation, which card to choose after all?

GeForce 4 Ti4200 paired with a Voodoo 2 for maximum compatibility. Note that 3DFX cards are extremely overpriced at this time, so I wouldn't recommend buying one unless you can get a really good deal.

Is it possible to fix 8-bit textures on card later than FX series with patches or wrappers?

This thread is focused on real hardware. You're better off asking that question in the PC Emulation sub forum.

GeForce 4 Ti4200 paired with a Voodoo 2 for maximum compatibility. Note that 3DFX cards are extremely overpriced at this time, so I wouldn't recommend buying one unless you can get a really good deal.

Thanks! I'm not even considering Voodoo because of the prices. I'm curious why Gf 4 Ti over FX cards though? Btw can any issues arise on higher fx models (above 5500)?

nuvyi wrote on 2023-04-03, 13:46:

I'm curious why Gf 4 Ti over FX cards though?

The FX cards need slightly newer drivers than the GeForce 4, and a few games like NFS4 and Shogo don't like that. There are workarounds for this, but you basically need to juggle a couple of different driver versions depending on which game you want to play. Overall, compatibility is a little bit better on the GeForce 4 Ti cards, while high-end FX cards deliver more performance, especially if Anti Aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering are used.

Btw what problems can arise on higher fx models?

Stuff like this: Text corruption in certain games on a GeForce FX 5900XT

The FX cards need slightly newer drivers than the GeForce 4, and a few games like NFS4 and Shogo don't like that. There are workarounds for this, but you basically need to juggle a couple of different driver versions depending on which game you want to play. Overall, compatibility is a little bit better on the GeForce 4 Ti cards, while high-end FX cards deliver more performance, especially if Anti Aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering are used.

Is the GeForce 3 worth considering? How much performance and compatibility difference vs GF 4/FX?

nuvyi wrote on 2023-04-03, 15:52:

Is the GeForce 3 worth considering? How much performance and compatibility difference vs GF 4/FX?

Performance is worse at higher resolutions, compatibility is similar to GeForce 4 Ti. The GeForce 3 can of course use even older drivers, though whether that provides additional benefits is debatable.

And before this thread turns into a detailed "which card should I buy" discussion, I suggest looking here: GeForce 4 vs. GeForce FX? and possibly opening a new topic in that sub forum for your own questions.

It's easier to give a recommendation if you provide additional details like what resolution do you want to play your games at, which year is your latest game from, do you need AA/AF and so on.