VOGONS


First post, by ultra_code

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Hello VOGONS members!

I have a question that proves elusive.

With my current Pentium 3 800MHz build, I have a Voodoo3 3000 that has been slightly overclocked. While I enjoy strong Glide compatibility, I feel it struggles in later Glide titles from 1998 and on at 1280x1024 (especially apparent in Need for Speed: High Stakes).

Now, I have been looking maybe at getting a Voodoo5, but, given it's rarity and associated high costs, plus it's lackluster cooling system without mods, I am steered to consider other options. One of them is the following: Replacing the Voodoo3 with a Nvidia GeForce FX 5900XT I have lying around and using nGlide to get that Glide compatibility. However, I heard that nGlide can be quite CPU intensive.

So, my question is this: Besides that loss of native Glide-rendering feel (which some have stated), would Glide games benefit from the more powerful GPU? Would Glide games perform better (i.e. higher and/or more stable FPS) with the Voodoo3 3000, or the FX 5900XT with nGlide?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

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Reply 1 of 19, by gdjacobs

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Phil ran nGlide on an Athlon 64 and was able to substantially outperform a Voodoo5. I don't know how iq stacks up, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-w1NziFoLg

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 2 of 19, by ultra_code

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gdjacobs wrote:

Phil ran nGlide on an Athlon 64 and was able to substantially outperform a Voodoo5. I don't know how iq stacks up, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-w1NziFoLg

Yeah, I saw that video already. But, that's my concern. He's using an Athlon XP, which 99% of all the different Athlon XP CPUs (according to Wikipedia; I'll surrender myself later 😀 ) ever produced were clocked at or above 1GHz. Would a lowly Intel Pentium 3 CPU released a year before be able to stack up enough to those Athlon XP CPUs?

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Reply 3 of 19, by vvbee

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Another option is getting used to and using low resolutions. That way you don't even need a model 3000. In '98 gaming, 800 x 600 and 640 x 480 ruled, and in '99 you had people running outcast in 400 x 300.

Reply 4 of 19, by meljor

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the_ultra_code wrote:
gdjacobs wrote:

Phil ran nGlide on an Athlon 64 and was able to substantially outperform a Voodoo5. I don't know how iq stacks up, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-w1NziFoLg

Yeah, I saw that video already. But, that's my concern. He's using an Athlon XP, which 99% of all the different Athlon XP CPUs (according to Wikipedia; I'll surrender myself later 😀 ) ever produced were clocked at or above 1GHz. Would a lowly Intel Pentium 3 CPU released a year before be able to stack up enough to those Athlon XP CPUs?

No (= the short answer).

He 's using an Athlon64 as stated above which is even faster than the fastest Athlon XP. Your Pentium 3 will bottleneck the voodoo 5 but will also not run Nglide great with any card.
To be fair: nfs high stakes is a dog of a game imho with not a really smooth running game engine (on lower end pc's). I think NFS 3 and NFS 5 both run better on your system, they are also better games in general.

asus tx97-e, 233mmx, voodoo1, s3 virge ,sb16
asus p5a, k6-3+ @ 550mhz, voodoo2 12mb sli, gf2 gts, awe32
asus p3b-f, p3-700, voodoo3 3500TV agp, awe64
asus tusl2-c, p3-S 1,4ghz, voodoo5 5500, live!
asus a7n8x DL, barton cpu, 6800ultra, Voodoo3 pci, audigy1

Reply 5 of 19, by gdjacobs

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I suspect you'd start hitting CPU limits at higher than XGA resolutions regardless. As it sounds like you're not concerned about period correctness, I suggest making the leap to something with higher performance.

Athlon XP/64/Pentium IV machines can make really nice Win98/XP hybrid hosts with the right motherboard chipset, plus they're usually inexpensive (or free).

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 6 of 19, by ultra_code

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Boy, where do I start?

vvbee wrote:

Another option is getting used to and using low resolutions. That way you don't even need a model 3000. In '98 gaming, 800 x 600 and 640 x 480 ruled, and in '99 you had people running outcast in 400 x 300.

🤣 Yeah, I guess I could. That's what I had to do with The Need for Speed SE on my 2D-graphics-card Pentium MMX 233MHz machine for the game to run at least mostly around 30fps - all low settings, more or less. I'm just the kind of the guy that likes no compromises, however sometimes unreasonable the request. 😀

meljor wrote:
No (= the short answer). […]
Show full quote
the_ultra_code wrote:
gdjacobs wrote:

Phil ran nGlide on an Athlon 64 and was able to substantially outperform a Voodoo5. I don't know how iq stacks up, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-w1NziFoLg

Yeah, I saw that video already. But, that's my concern. He's using an Athlon XP, which 99% of all the different Athlon XP CPUs (according to Wikipedia; I'll surrender myself later 😀 ) ever produced were clocked at or above 1GHz. Would a lowly Intel Pentium 3 CPU released a year before be able to stack up enough to those Athlon XP CPUs?

No (= the short answer).

He 's using an Athlon64 as stated above which is even faster than the fastest Athlon XP. Your Pentium 3 will bottleneck the voodoo 5 but will also not run Nglide great with any card.
To be fair: nfs high stakes is a dog of a game imho with not a really smooth running game engine (on lower end pc's). I think NFS 3 and NFS 5 both run better on your system, they are also better games in general.

While I would have to disagree with you about NFS5 about it being a great game (not the same as those before it, especially so due to how different the cars feel; then again, haven't played much of it because of that, so I don't have the most-complete opinion) 😀, you are right regarding what CPU Phil used. My bad. Yeah, basically this would be a no-go, then. 😒

gdjacobs wrote:

I suspect you'd start hitting CPU limits at higher than XGA resolutions regardless. As it sounds like you're not concerned about period correctness, I suggest making the leap to something with higher performance.

Athlon XP/64/Pentium IV machines can make really nice Win98/XP hybrid hosts with the right motherboard chipset, plus they're usually inexpensive (or free).

I would say I'm kind of weird in the sense that, for some things, I want period-correct, others, well, not so much. In this case, though, yeah, I am considering breaking out of period-correctness. I do, however, have my already pre-built 3.4GHz P4 machine at the ready for this task (although I'm not sure if the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB in the system, with its lack of support for palettized textures and table fog, would cause problems in older nGlide games - is that even a concern with Glide games?). I also have a nice, fully-functional Asus TUSL2-C Tualatin-compatible motherboard in storage that I recently purchased waiting to be used in a 1400MHz Tualatin CPU build - which I think would actually be what I am looking for (especially given the restrictions of NFS5, which has... problems on systems with CPUs clocked at over 2GHz). Powerful enough for nGlide emulation with at least a slightly less powerful GPU than the 5900XT, while being very compatible with games I am targeting. Is that a valid statement?

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Reply 9 of 19, by ultra_code

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3dprophet wrote:

What about a Geforce + Voodoo 2 setup? It’s something that I have been fascinated with but never experienced. Does that solve the performance vs. Glide dilemma?

darry wrote:

Or a Geforce AGP + Voodoo 3 PCI setup, if your BIOS lets you choose between AGP and PCI as a primary display device ?

giphy.gif
Hmmm, interesting ideas...

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Reply 10 of 19, by MKT_Gundam

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meljor wrote:
No (= the short answer). […]
Show full quote
the_ultra_code wrote:
gdjacobs wrote:

Phil ran nGlide on an Athlon 64 and was able to substantially outperform a Voodoo5. I don't know how iq stacks up, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-w1NziFoLg

Yeah, I saw that video already. But, that's my concern. He's using an Athlon XP, which 99% of all the different Athlon XP CPUs (according to Wikipedia; I'll surrender myself later 😀 ) ever produced were clocked at or above 1GHz. Would a lowly Intel Pentium 3 CPU released a year before be able to stack up enough to those Athlon XP CPUs?

No (= the short answer).

He 's using an Athlon64 as stated above which is even faster than the fastest Athlon XP. Your Pentium 3 will bottleneck the voodoo 5 but will also not run Nglide great with any card.
To be fair: nfs high stakes is a dog of a game imho with not a really smooth running game engine (on lower end pc's). I think NFS 3 and NFS 5 both run better on your system, they are also better games in general.

Even for early V1 games?

Retro rig 1: Asus CUV4X, VIA c3 800, Voodoo Banshee (Diamond fusion) and SB32 ct3670.
Retro rig 2: Intel DX2 66, SB16 Ct1740 and Cirrus Logic VLB.

Reply 11 of 19, by ultra_code

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After thinking it through for a bit 🤣 ...

3dprophet wrote:

What about a Geforce + Voodoo 2 setup? It’s something that I have been fascinated with but never experienced. Does that solve the performance vs. Glide dilemma?

Well, wouldn't you still be limited then by the Voodoo2 in 3dfx games, because then the GeForce card would only act as a 2D card at that, no? I mean, a really over-powered 2D card at that, but still just a 2D card, right?

darry wrote:

Or a Geforce AGP + Voodoo 3 PCI setup, if your BIOS lets you choose between AGP and PCI as a primary display device ?

But again, wouldn't you be limited by the Voodoo3? In Glide games, how would the GeForce card contribute? I mean, that would be great in DX- and OpenGL-game scenarious when the V3 can't provide the performance you would want, but in Glide scenarios, how could the GeForce card contribute?

Just my concerns. Also...

MKT_Gundam wrote:

Even for early V1 games?

My guess would be no. I mean, those are DOS games, right? Shouldn't require much to run them.

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Reply 12 of 19, by 3dprophet

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I was thinking you could run more demanding titles on the Geforce and use the Voodoo for older glide titles.

For NFS4 is it important running it in Glide instead of Direct3D?

Since you have other hardware available I would also try the Voodoo 3 with a faster CPU.

Reply 13 of 19, by ultra_code

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3dprophet wrote:

I was thinking you could run more demanding titles on the Geforce and use the Voodoo for older glide titles.

For NFS4 is it important running it in Glide instead of Direct3D?

*sigh* As much as I don't want to have to say it (just like how I hate how much of my life does not have ray-tracing in it), you're right. It's not important. Just a strong wish. 😀

3dprophet wrote:

Since you have other hardware available I would also try the Voodoo 3 with a faster CPU.

I do indeed plan to buy the most powerful 100MHz-FSB P3 available for the system - the 1GHz Slot 1 P3 - and throw it into the system, and see the improvement, although I wish there was some sort of FPS counter for Glide games to truly visualize the performance increase. Fraps doesn't work, because I assume that only works with OpenGL and DX API games.

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Reply 14 of 19, by swaaye

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I'd play around with DGVoodoo 1.x and Zeckensack's Glide Wrapper too. You can definitely get better visuals and speed with a wrapper than a real Voodoo card, but also lots of compatibility quirks too.

Zeckensack's wrapper is fairly optimized for the FX cards.

You'll certainly have some more CPU overhead with a wrapper than native Glide, but it still tends to be superior to D3D in a number of games. Especially Unreal based games. Though Unreal based games can in some cases use the even better UTGLR OpenGL renderer (which works on GeForce 256 and later).

Reply 15 of 19, by ultra_code

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swaaye wrote:

I'd play around with DGVoodoo 1.x and Zeckensack's Glide Wrapper too. You can definitely get better visuals and speed with a wrapper than a real Voodoo card, but also lots of compatibility quirks too.

Zeckensack's wrapper is fairly optimized for the FX cards.

You'll certainly have some more CPU overhead with a wrapper than native Glide, but it still tends to be superior to D3D in a number of games. Especially Unreal based games. Though Unreal based games can in some cases use the even better UTGLR OpenGL renderer (which works on GeForce 256 and later).

Interesting.

Hmm... The more I think about this, as long as I upgrade the processor to the 1GHz 100MHz-FSB Slot 1 CPU rarity that it is (or try my hand at using a slot 1-to-socket 370 adapter and save money while getting similar or better performance), and pair it with a very powerful GPU (at least a GeForce 3, but a GeForce4 or FX card would probably fit the bill), I guess I would be fine, huh? Wouldn't hurt to try.

Curious, though: Could anyone provide a nice list of Glide wrappers for me? The only ones I know include: nGlide, GliDOS, Zeckensack's (thanks swaaye), and dgVoodoo.

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Reply 16 of 19, by swaaye

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Well there are more Glide wrappers but those are the most capable.

There is one specifically for Diablo 2.
http://www.svenswrapper.de/english/

Other Glide wrapper curiosities that come to mind are "Unified", made by Creative for their TNT2 cards. There was a RRedline to Glide wrapper called BigRed made for the Rendition Verite V2xxx cards.

Old list of wrappers:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080424105658/ht … owcontent&id=89

Reply 17 of 19, by ultra_code

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swaaye wrote:
Well there are more Glide wrappers but those are the most capable. […]
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Well there are more Glide wrappers but those are the most capable.

There is one specifically for Diablo 2.
http://www.svenswrapper.de/english/

Other Glide wrapper curiosities that come to mind are "Unified", made by Creative for their TNT2 cards. There was a RRedline to Glide wrapper called BigRed made for the Rendition Verite V2xxx cards.

Old list of wrappers:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080424105658/ht … owcontent&id=89

Cool. Thanks! I'll check them out a little later. 😀

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Reply 18 of 19, by Stiletto

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the_ultra_code wrote:
swaaye wrote:
Well there are more Glide wrappers but those are the most capable. […]
Show full quote

Well there are more Glide wrappers but those are the most capable.

There is one specifically for Diablo 2.
http://www.svenswrapper.de/english/

Other Glide wrapper curiosities that come to mind are "Unified", made by Creative for their TNT2 cards. There was a RRedline to Glide wrapper called BigRed made for the Rendition Verite V2xxx cards.

Old list of wrappers:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080424105658/ht … owcontent&id=89

Cool. Thanks! I'll check them out a little later. 😀

I've got a collection going here:
http://www.vogonsdrivers.com/wrappers/files/Glide/

Eventually will add descriptions via a wiki, but for now it is what it is.

"I see a little silhouette-o of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you
do the Fandango!" - Queen

Stiletto

Reply 19 of 19, by ultra_code

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Stiletto wrote:
I've got a collection going here: http://www.vogonsdrivers.com/wrappers/files/Glide/ […]
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the_ultra_code wrote:
swaaye wrote:
Well there are more Glide wrappers but those are the most capable. […]
Show full quote

Well there are more Glide wrappers but those are the most capable.

There is one specifically for Diablo 2.
http://www.svenswrapper.de/english/

Other Glide wrapper curiosities that come to mind are "Unified", made by Creative for their TNT2 cards. There was a RRedline to Glide wrapper called BigRed made for the Rendition Verite V2xxx cards.

Old list of wrappers:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080424105658/ht … owcontent&id=89

Cool. Thanks! I'll check them out a little later. 😀

I've got a collection going here:
http://www.vogonsdrivers.com/wrappers/files/Glide/

Eventually will add descriptions via a wiki, but for now it is what it is.

That's good. I love it when my options are many. 😀

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