VOGONS


Good value Win98 Graphic Card

Topic actions

Reply 20 of 82, by clueless1

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

I was an nvidia guy during that era, so none of those Radeon models mean anything to me. Which Nvidia cards does it compare most closely to? Was I right that it's about on par with a Ti200 or FX 5200 128-bit?

@BushLin - OP specifically stated "I could probably use a bit more grunt for smooth FPS games at 1024x768 or so." Just trying to give him relevant info.

I'd hate to recommend him a card that once he gets turns out performs no better than what he already has.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
Let's benchmark our systems with cache disabled
DOS PCI Graphics Card Benchmarks

Reply 21 of 82, by appiah4

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
clueless1 wrote:

I was an nvidia guy during that era, so none of those Radeon models mean anything to me. Which Nvidia cards does it compare most closely to? Was I right that it's about on par with a Ti200 or FX 5200 128-bit?

It's pretty much a Ti200 equivalent.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 22 of 82, by rasz_pl

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

ATI sold tons of Radeons 9600, they are super cheap and should work ok in W98. Old Steam survey data is a good way to get an idea of what was popular at the time and shouldnt give too much trouble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHTdnIviZTE

cyclone3d wrote:

Any stuff placed on Craigslist is almost always listed at insane prices (might as well go to the store any buy new) and in the past 10 years I have seen absolutely 0 pieces of older stuff.

The last recycling center anywhere near here shut down around 3 years ago. Glad I cleaned them almost completely out of their old hardware before then. They only had a few sound and video cards.

I did find a place that sells old hardware in a different state and have since bought ALL of the ISA sound cards and all ISA and VLB video cards that they had.

Did it ever occur to you that you might the be the source of the problem? sounds like you bought every vintage piece of gear in 100 mile radius 😀 I can just imagine you sitting on a pile if VLB cards like Smaug on his gold hoard.

$free-20 'take this old gray box off my hands' deals are still the norm in my part of EU woods.
quick search $10 ~1992 AT+printer+electronic typewriter https://www.olx.pl/oferta/stary-komputer-druk … html#4aed857cb9
$15 ~1999 tested PC+CRT https://www.olx.pl/oferta/stary-stacjonarny-k … html#4aed857cb9

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 23 of 82, by cyclone3d

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
rasz_pl wrote:
ATI sold tons of Radeons 9600, they are super cheap and should work ok in W98. Old Steam survey data is a good way to get an ide […]
Show full quote

ATI sold tons of Radeons 9600, they are super cheap and should work ok in W98. Old Steam survey data is a good way to get an idea of what was popular at the time and shouldnt give too much trouble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHTdnIviZTE

cyclone3d wrote:

Any stuff placed on Craigslist is almost always listed at insane prices (might as well go to the store any buy new) and in the past 10 years I have seen absolutely 0 pieces of older stuff.

The last recycling center anywhere near here shut down around 3 years ago. Glad I cleaned them almost completely out of their old hardware before then. They only had a few sound and video cards.

I did find a place that sells old hardware in a different state and have since bought ALL of the ISA sound cards and all ISA and VLB video cards that they had.

Did it ever occur to you that you might the be the source of the problem? sounds like you bought every vintage piece of gear in 100 mile radius 😀 I can just imagine you sitting on a pile if VLB cards like Smaug on his gold hoard.

$free-20 'take this old gray box off my hands' deals are still the norm in my part of EU woods.
quick search $10 ~1992 AT+printer+electronic typewriter https://www.olx.pl/oferta/stary-komputer-druk … html#4aed857cb9
$15 ~1999 tested PC+CRT https://www.olx.pl/oferta/stary-stacjonarny-k … html#4aed857cb9

Haha. I do need to get rid of a lot of stuff. Most of the stuff I need to get rid of is lower end stuff though. I do have some nicer stuff I will probably get rid of that came from random lots of stuff off of eBay.

I think the main reason that there is no vintage gear around where I am is because I live in what they call "Tornado Alley" and also because this is a very high-end tech town. People just tend to trash stuff that they don't want anymore.

Last good thing I got from around here was a 20" CRT monitor that somebody set out to the curb. That was a couple years ago now.

Before that was around 10 years ago when somebody set out a few Slot-A systems to the curb.

I have found a few old games at the thrift store as well as a Sound Blaster 2.0 box with software and manuals about a year ago.

The vintage stuff is just not around here and really never has been as long as I have lived here.

Yamaha modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG repository
YMF7x4 Guide
Aopen AW744L II SB-LINK

Reply 24 of 82, by Jasin Natael

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

One thing to remember is that not all Radeon 9250SE cards are 64bit. I have a PCI 256MB model that is 128bit.

It's a Diamond if I remember, very underrated card IMHO

Reply 25 of 82, by buckeye

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
cyclone3d wrote:
Haha. I do need to get rid of a lot of stuff. Most of the stuff I need to get rid of is lower end stuff though. I do have some n […]
Show full quote

Haha. I do need to get rid of a lot of stuff. Most of the stuff I need to get rid of is lower end stuff though. I do have some nicer stuff I will probably get rid of that came from random lots of stuff off of eBay.

I think the main reason that there is no vintage gear around where I am is because I live in what they call "Tornado Alley" and also because this is a very high-end tech town. People just tend to trash stuff that they don't want anymore.

Last good thing I got from around here was a 20" CRT monitor that somebody set out to the curb. That was a couple years ago now.

Before that was around 10 years ago when somebody set out a few Slot-A systems to the curb.

I have found a few old games at the thrift store as well as a Sound Blaster 2.0 box with software and manuals about a year ago.

The vintage stuff is just not around here and really never has been as long as I have lived here.

Yep, the "highlight" of my retro snatches at flea markets is mostly games like System Shock 2 & Shadow Warrior - no hardware tho!

Asus P5N-E Intel Core 2 Duo 3.33ghz. 4GB DDR2 Geforce 470 1GB SB X-Fi Titanium 650W XP SP3
Intel SE440BX P3 450 256MB 80GB SSD Radeon 7200 64mb SB 32pnp 350W 98SE
MSI x570 Gaming Pro Carbon Ryzen 3700x 32GB DDR4 Zotac RTX 3070 8GB WD Black 1TB 850W

Reply 26 of 82, by WildW

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

The 9250 is getting 3DMark 2001SE score of about 5000 at 1024x768 and no AA. I used to have a Radeon 9600 Pro that I think scored around 9k to 10k at the same settings.

There aren't so many reviews around now, and my old go-to resource (Tom's VGA Charts) are all broken images and useless now.

Honestly the 9250 is not terrible, and I'm not expecting the FX 5600 to be as good as the old 9600 Pro, but it should be a little better and more suited to DX8.

Reply 27 of 82, by mothergoose729

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
WildW wrote:

The 9250 is getting 3DMark 2001SE score of about 5000 at 1024x768 and no AA. I used to have a Radeon 9600 Pro that I think scored around 9k to 10k at the same settings.

There aren't so many reviews around now, and my old go-to resource (Tom's VGA Charts) are all broken images and useless now.

Honestly the 9250 is not terrible, and I'm not expecting the FX 5600 to be as good as the old 9600 Pro, but it should be a little better and more suited to DX8.

ATI cards never properly supported table fag or 8 bit textures. For early 3d windows games, nvidia and 3dfx are definitely the better options. Otherwise, you might as well run these games on windows XP or later with a cheaper, and faster PCIE card.

Reply 28 of 82, by clueless1

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
appiah4 wrote:
clueless1 wrote:

I was an nvidia guy during that era, so none of those Radeon models mean anything to me. Which Nvidia cards does it compare most closely to? Was I right that it's about on par with a Ti200 or FX 5200 128-bit?

It's pretty much a Ti200 equivalent.

😀 You could've just agreed with me to begin with when I compared it to a Ti200.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
Let's benchmark our systems with cache disabled
DOS PCI Graphics Card Benchmarks

Reply 29 of 82, by johnyept

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

(Sorry for bringing this back from the dead, but since it's on the same subject, it's easier to keep it all under the same topic)

I currently have a Geforce 6200 AGP 8x 256MB in my Windows 98 machine (WIP) with a 3.2ghz Prescott (great for those cold winter nights!), but a very cheap deal appeared for an FX 5500 AGP 256MB DDR for 5 bucks. I know it's more DX7/DX8 oriented which is a plus for the games around 2000, and supports older drivers which according to the majority are more stable.

Are all FX 5500 AGP 8x? Will this card run as fast as a 3dfx card with nGlide or any other glide wrapper, since 3dfx cards are impossible to get at decent prices nowadays?

RETRO-W95/NT4: ASUS P3B-F, P3 550, 192MB, GF2+VD2 PCI, AWE64+VIBRA128, 80GB IDE
RETRO-W98/2K: ASUS A7N8X-E, Sempron 2.8+, 512MB, FX 5700LE 256MB, SB Live! CT4830, 320GB IDE
RETRO-WXP/7: ASUS P5KPL-AM EPU, XEON E5450, 4GB, GTS 450 1GB, 120GB SSD, 1TB sATA

Reply 30 of 82, by Doornkaat

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

AGP 8x isn't that important at those speeds but all Geforce FX 5500 cards have the NV34 chip that supports AGP 8x.
I have no idea how fast it'll run with a Glide wrapper, sorry, but FX 5500 cards are really slow. I'd pass on that offer and wait for a 5200 with 128bit memory bus or an FX 5600.

Reply 31 of 82, by johnyept

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

I only mentioned AGP 8x because my board only accepts cards with 1.5v. I know the 5500 is basically a (very slightly) faster 5200, but comes in 128bit unlike 5200 which can be 64 or 128bit, most people don't even know what that is, and is easier to find for sale when compared to faster cards. I guess I'll wait for a faster card in the 5xxx range, as they seem to be the most compatible overall for DOS and DX7/DX8 games. 😀

RETRO-W95/NT4: ASUS P3B-F, P3 550, 192MB, GF2+VD2 PCI, AWE64+VIBRA128, 80GB IDE
RETRO-W98/2K: ASUS A7N8X-E, Sempron 2.8+, 512MB, FX 5700LE 256MB, SB Live! CT4830, 320GB IDE
RETRO-WXP/7: ASUS P5KPL-AM EPU, XEON E5450, 4GB, GTS 450 1GB, 120GB SSD, 1TB sATA

Reply 32 of 82, by Doornkaat

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
johnyept wrote on 2021-02-25, 18:16:

I only mentioned AGP 8x because my board only accepts cards with 1.5v. I know the 5500 is basically a (very slightly) faster 5200, but comes in 128bit unlike 5200 which can be 64 or 128bit, most people don't even know what that is, and is easier to find for sale when compared to faster cards. I guess I'll wait for a faster card in the 5xxx range, as they seem to be the most compatible overall for DOS and DX7/DX8 games. 😀

Sorry, I've got conflicting information about the clocks on 5200 vs 5500 cards.
Ultimately the low FX series cards were pretty much the wild west for manufacturers to use whatever clocks and bus widths they liked so it's probably depending on the individual card which is better.
All AGP FX cards are AGP 3.0 compliant so they can all handle 1.5V signalling.

Reply 33 of 82, by SPBHM

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

for DX7/8 I would think the 6200 is very compatible also? and for DOS I'm not aware of it being particularly bad?
so I think it's a questionable change? (6200 AGP > 5500)
the AA/AF on the 6200 is also probably a lot more competent,

the FX is better for older (like DX5?) D3D games I would think in terms of compatibility (fog table and such)

still, difficult to say for sure since there is a lot of variability in specs in regards to memory bus and clocks.

Reply 34 of 82, by johnyept

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

That's some of the reasons why I'm leaning towards an FX 5xxx: better support for previous DX versions and older / more stable drivers (geforce 6200 starts at 77.72), plus fog and 8-bit textures as mentioned in this topic: Re: Table Fog & 8-bit Paletted Textures
I have an FX 5200 but unfortunately it's displaying artifacts and garbage on the screen. I'm pretty sure I might have another somewhere, I'll try to find it and check if it has a 64 or 128-bit bus.

EDIT: Found it! But has 3 bulged capacitors...

RETRO-W95/NT4: ASUS P3B-F, P3 550, 192MB, GF2+VD2 PCI, AWE64+VIBRA128, 80GB IDE
RETRO-W98/2K: ASUS A7N8X-E, Sempron 2.8+, 512MB, FX 5700LE 256MB, SB Live! CT4830, 320GB IDE
RETRO-WXP/7: ASUS P5KPL-AM EPU, XEON E5450, 4GB, GTS 450 1GB, 120GB SSD, 1TB sATA

Reply 35 of 82, by maximus

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

"Good value Win98 graphic card"

GeForce2 GTS / Pro/ Ti cards are awesome for Windows 98. Pair with ForceWare 45.23 and you are good to go. These are some of the only good AGP cards that are still affordable. I got a couple on eBay within the last year for less than $20 US. (I'll stop now, I have enough 😆)

Any of those cards can handle 1024x768x32 in any Windows 98 game without breaking a sweat. They support all the important legacy features like 16-bit dithering and table fog. The only thing to watch out for is dim or fuzzy VGA output. Probably less likely on GeForce2 Ti cards, which also outperform GTS / Pro versions by a wide margin.

PCGames9505

Reply 37 of 82, by Joseph_Joestar

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

IMO, a GeForce4 MX440 (128-bit version) provides the most value for its fairly low price. Paired with a fast CPU, that card will play every Win9x game released up to 2001 with 60+ FPS at 1024x768 resolution or lower, albeit without AA and AF maxed out. Many older games will work fine at 1280x1024 as well.

The MX440 is cheaper than a GeForce2 GTS while providing equivalent performance. The downside is that the MX440 needs to use slightly newer drivers which aren't really optimized for older CPUs. It also doesn't support pixel shaders, but that's irrelevant for games made before 2001.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 38 of 82, by maximus

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
Putas wrote on 2021-03-04, 07:08:

GeForce2 Ti outperforms Pro by a wide margin?

Indeed. Quake III Arena timedemo results from my Sempron 3000+ test system:

71.3 FPS -- GeForce4 MX420
83.8 FPS -- GeForce2 GTS
87.9 FPS -- GeForce2 Pro
103.0 FPS - GeForce2 Ti
120.7 FPS - GeForce2 Ultra
147.7 FPS - GeForce4 MX440 8x

Agree with Joseph that the GeForce4 MX440 is a great value as well, especially since there isn't much price difference between GeForce4 MX and GeForce2 cards currently. GeForce4 MX gets most of its speed advantage from Z buffer compression (Lightspeed Memory Architecture), so games with lots of overdraw typically see more of a performance boost vs. GeForce2 cards.

ForceWare 45.23 and 93.71 both work with GeForce4 MX cards. Some games (e.g., Rogue Squadron) break with drivers newer than 45.23. I am also fairly certain there are some games that run on GeForce2 cards with 45.23 that do not on GeForce4 MX (Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine comes to mind, so there are probably more). GeForce4 cards' 16-bit dithering is also subjectively not as good to my eye, but overall the experience is very close to a fast GeForce2.

Edit: added GeForce4 MX420 timedemo result for reference.

Last edited by maximus on 2021-03-04, 21:07. Edited 2 times in total.

PCGames9505