VOGONS


First post, by feipoa

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I recently started retro-briting and assembling this Gateway 2000 Kadoka system (aka KAD SELECT-850). I had hoped to run a 1 GHz Thunderbird, but the chip I received was dead, so it is going to be a 1 GHz Orion Slot A instead (thanks LuckyBob!!). I had originally planned on sourcing a Voodoo5 for this system, but I think COVID and quarantine have made people a little nuts with buying and paying more than they would have otherwise. So no Voodoo5 for this system. I wouldn't pay the $300 that people are asking for these even if I won the lottery. It would cease to be a fun hobby if I start feeding others greed and obsessive disorders, which in the grand scheme, is what it would be promoting.

So, I'm down to what I have in the drawer. These are the AGP cards I have which are not currently installed in systems. I was wondering what you'd all put in the Gateway system if you were setting it up. I've highlighted the short-list based on the responses.

Matrox G200 SGRAM
Matrox G200 SDRAM
Matrox G400 Max
Matrox G550
Matrox P650
Matrox P750
Matrox Parhelia 128

NVIDIA TNT2 M64
GeForce2 GTS (Creative Labs GB0010)
GeForce MX4000
GeForce4 MX440SE 128-bit 64 MB
GeForce4 MX440 64-bit 64 MB
GeForce FX5200EP
Quadro FX 500
Quadro FX 1100
GeForce 6200 64-bit 512 MB
GeForce 6200 64-bit 256 MB
MSI GeForce 6800GT 256 MB
BFG GeForce 6600GT 128 MB

Diamond Fire 1K Pro (Permedia2?)
3Dfx Voodoo3 3000 SDRAM

ATI Rage LT Pro
ATI Rage 128 Ultra 32 MB
ATI Radeon ALL-IN-WONDER 8500DV 64MB DDR
ATI Radeon 9000Pro 128 MB

ATI Radeon 9550 128-bit 256 MB

Target games are: whatever you would use it for if it was yours. I have the G400 Max in there right now because I don't have any Matrox cards installed in any systems as the primary 3D card, it is usually setup with a Voodoo2. I had the G400 Max installed in a slower system, but seems that it needed a more powerful CPU, which the Athlon is. Was also considering the Radeon 8500DV because I don't have any Radeons installed elsewhere. I have two Voodoo3's installed in other systems, but haven't ruled out the Voodoo3 entirely. I considered the Parhelia, but I recall reading it has a fair amount of bugs in games. So, what would you use?

I'm also curious about sound cards. The board doesn't have ISA slots and my remaining PCI sound cards are few:

SB Live!
Creative ES1373
Aureal Vortex 2 (AU8830A2)

I plan to run numerous operating systems from one HDD: WINNT4, Win98SE, W2K, W2K3, and XP. It has already been outfitted with the max memory of 768 MB PC133 CL2 RAM. I will probably run a 136 GB U320 10K SCSI drive on an Adaptec U160 controller, or maybe an LSI U160 controller. I haven't used any LSI controllers and it would be nice diversify the hardware in systems. The LSI controller has very little components on the PCB compared to the Adaptec. Was wondering if the LSI is any better or worse than the Adaptec?

Your input is appreciated!

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Last edited by feipoa on 2020-05-08, 09:23. Edited 1 time in total.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 1 of 32, by Joseph_Joestar

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I recently got my hands on a GeForce4 MX440 and I can highly recommend it, if the following things are true:

1. Your version of the card has a 128-bit memory interface (some have a 64-bit interface and perform worse)
2. You don't intend to play games from 2001 and up which require DirectX 8.1 (referring to pixel shader functionality)
3. Your target resolution is 1024x768 with an occasional jump to 1280x1024 for older games

It's a great, affordable card with performance that matches a GeForce 2 GTS (and sometimes even the Ultra) with pretty much the same feature set. Also, fog table emulation and palleted textures work fine, so old Win9x games will look as intended. DOS compatibility is also pretty good, at least from what I've seen. Stick with drivers 40.72 (for AGP 8x cards) or 30.82 (for AGP 4x cards) to get optimal performance.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 3 of 32, by The Serpent Rider

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I would toss Radeon 9000 Pro or GeForce 4 MX 440 in there and call it a day.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 4 of 32, by feipoa

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ShovelKnight wrote on 2020-05-07, 14:43:

Offtopic: I like your bookshelf! Are you a physicist or an electrical engineer?

Used to be; am sort of retired now. Books will probably go in the attic during the next remodel.

Radeon 9000 Pro eh? G400 Max, 8500DV, Voodoo3 all too slow?

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 6 of 32, by Ozzuneoj

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feipoa wrote on 2020-05-07, 22:30:
ShovelKnight wrote on 2020-05-07, 14:43:

Offtopic: I like your bookshelf! Are you a physicist or an electrical engineer?

Used to be; am sort of retired now. Books will probably go in the attic during the next remodel.

Radeon 9000 Pro eh? G400 Max, 8500DV, Voodoo3 all too slow?

The 8500DV should be faster than the 9000 Pro. The 8500 and 9100 (R200 based) models have twice the vertex shaders and TMUs of the other RV250 and RV280 9xxx models. The only way the 9000 Pro would be better is in memory bandwidth limited situations, but I would think that the TMUs would be even more important then. And of course, this is assuming that your card follows the normal 9000 Pro spec and has a 128bit bus. If it is only 64bit for some reason (super cheap model), I wouldn't touch it.

If this system is going to be used to get the most out of Windows games up to about the year 2000, I'd use the Quadro FX 1100 for high speed and compatibility. Assuming there are no Quadro specific quirks introduced, this is similar to an FX 5700 which is excellent for games from this era. Or maybe the 8500DV if you want to dabble with Radeons but I don't know if there will be any compatibility issues. As others have mentioned, the Geforce 2 GTS would be a good period-correct choice but it wouldn't be as fast. Personally, my first PC I built (to replace a Gateway G6-400) in about the year 2000 had an Athlon Slot A 750 with a PCI Voodoo 3 2000 (carried over from the Gateway) and I drooled over the V5 5500 for ages before admitting that nvidia had them beat in every possible way with the Geforce 2 (RIP 3dfx). I bought a 32MB GTS from VisionTek and it was an excellent addition to the system. I used it until I eventually upgraded to a Ti 4400.

For the sound card, the Vortex 2 is the clear choice for me. A3D is wonderful, the soft synth is decent and the DOS support is nice too if you need it.

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 7 of 32, by feipoa

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What driver versions would be optimal for the Radeon 8500 or 9000 Pro? There is some appeal in using ATI w/AMD CPUs.

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2020-05-08, 02:47:

I drooled over the V5 5500 for ages before admitting that nvidia had them beat in every possible way with the Geforce 2 (RIP 3dfx).

This is why I never bothered to buy a Voodoo5 back when they were cheap; I just didn't see the purpose. By the time the Voodoo5 came out, graphic chip competitors had caught up and moved ahead of 3dfx and 3dfx's appeal of less driver overhead didn't matter so much anymore because the CPUs had become sufficiently fast themselves.

EDIT: I decided to add the original 25 x 15 mm AMD Athlon case sticker back on after I removed it prior to retro-briting. It is pretty worn down, but I cannot find the sticker in this form factor online. I have a new 25 x 25 mm sticker, but it doesn't look good because to the left and right of the sticker, there is no space left for a border. Don't plan on putting the "Windows 98" sticker back on. Makes the case look cheap and tacky.

I have also bolded the short-listed graphics cards in the original post based on the responses.

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Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 8 of 32, by The Serpent Rider

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G400 Max, 8500DV, Voodoo3 all too slow?

G400 and V3 are obviously slow. Radeon 8500DV is faster, but doesn't have simple VGA output.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 9 of 32, by feipoa

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-05-08, 15:44:

G400 Max, 8500DV, Voodoo3 all too slow?

G400 and V3 are obviously slow. Radeon 8500DV is faster, but doesn't have simple VGA output.

Using a DVI-to-VGA adapter isn't all that bad.

HWiNFO reports the Matrox G400Max is running in AGP 1x mode. Is this normal?

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 10 of 32, by feipoa

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G400Max runs in 1x mode in NT4. Changing it to 2x, it still runs in 1x mode. G200 runs in 2x mode by default.

I'm experiencing an odd problem. Whether I use the AGP G400/G200 or PCI G200, GLQuake 1/2/3 all crash shortly after loading. Unreal won't work in OpenGL mode. But These games work with the G400 in Win98se. A G200 works with the Quakes even on a 486 in NT4, so I'm not sure what is going on.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 11 of 32, by slivercr

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I have a softspot for R200, so my vote goes to the 8500DV ...and ALL the sound cards daisy-chained together! Go nuts!

Off topic: it looks like the shelf of an E.E.
You have Sedra/Smith and you're from Canada: did you have either as a professor?!

Outrigger: an ongoing adventure with the OR840
QuForce FX 5800: turn your Quadro into a GeForce

Reply 12 of 32, by feipoa

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Since the G400Max is having some issues in NT4 using OpenGL, I have begun testing the 8500DV, or R200-based, Radeon. It is a little difficult finding the NT4 Radeon 8500 drivers. I am using a driver for the Radeon 7000 that seems to work. I should have a newer driver on the original CD-ROM as well. I bought the 8500DV new when it came out. I thought the card would be dead by now as I had run it for years without a fan on the GPU.

No, I didn't have a course with Sedra or Smith. It is a popular text that's for sure. I've taken a course with one of the authors of one of the books up there though. What I can say about this, though, is just because they "wrote" the book, doesn't mean they can teach in class well. I put "wrote" in quotes because very often other professors write chapters in texts or they get graduates to do much of the dirty work for little pay.

<EDIT>
I was able to install the Radeon 8500DV driver from the CD image, which is version 4.3.3286. I'm not sure if there is a newer version for NT, but this is all I have saved. The Quakes run fine. Unreal Tournament works as well, and in OpenGL mode, but there is no sound coming out of the speakers in UT. Descent 3 works once the game is loaded, but the menus are all badly garbled - just keep pressing <return> to get into the game.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 13 of 32, by chinny22

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Most my rigs are Intel/Nvidia/Creative

So I'm planning on rebuilding my own Slot A as the "Alternate A list PC"
AMD/ATI/Aureal Vortex

Still new to Slot A, does this have buggy AGP like early chipsets?

Reply 14 of 32, by feipoa

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I'm also new to Slot A systems. I don't know if it has any early AGP bugs. I do know that NT4 doesn't like the G400Max on this system. Radeon 8500DV seems OK.

Ideally I'd like to figure out how to remove the CPU's plastic casing and adjust the CPU multiplier in a manner similar to the gold finger devices (GFD), http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28887 I'd like to run the board at 850, 900, 950, and 1000 MHz to determine the fastest stable operating speed. Doesn't seem like I'll run across a GFD anytime soon so I'd have to do some messy solder work, then remove the mess.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 15 of 32, by appiah4

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It depends on what you want to do. I would either go with the G400 MAX if you want to run mostly DX7 stuff or the Voodoo3 if you want to build a crazy stupid fast Voodoo box. For DX8, the Radeon 8500 is a great card to put in any Athlon system, just remember it's not as good for DX5/6 games as a GeForce3/4.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 16 of 32, by feipoa

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I'm noticing that both the G400max and ATI 8500 are getting put into AGP 1x mode. Was AGP 2x on the Irongate not stable?

In what aspects does the 8500 not do as well in DX5/6 games? Slower, or display problems?

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 17 of 32, by appiah4

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feipoa wrote on 2020-06-05, 12:36:

I'm noticing that both the G400max and ATI 8500 are getting put into AGP 1x mode. Was AGP 2x on the Irongate not stable?

In what aspects does the 8500 not do as well in DX5/6 games? Slower, or display problems?

Something about ATI SmartGART was probably not set up correctly on the system, it may have to do with requiring updated motherboard drivers (the driver will default to 1x without VIA 4-in-1 on VIA motherboards for example.)

With regards to the second question: It lacks pallattized textures and tablefog.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 18 of 32, by chinny22

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feipoa wrote on 2020-06-05, 12:36:

I'm noticing that both the G400max and ATI 8500 are getting put into AGP 1x mode. Was AGP 2x on the Irongate not stable?

yep! Irongate is what I have as well

My Slot A was a dumpster find with a V3 PCI I suspect was original to get around the whole issue.

This gives more info
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd,155.html

Reply 19 of 32, by slivercr

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feipoa wrote on 2020-06-05, 11:56:

...
Ideally I'd like to figure out how to remove the CPU's plastic casing and adjust the CPU multiplier in a manner similar to the gold finger devices (GFD), http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28887 I'd like to run the board at 850, 900, 950, and 1000 MHz to determine the fastest stable operating speed. Doesn't seem like I'll run across a GFD anytime soon so I'd have to do some messy solder work, then remove the mess.

I've never used either SlotA nor a GFD, but you can look to Robert B (Bobby B?!) for guidance on how to open the cartridge.

Outrigger: an ongoing adventure with the OR840
QuForce FX 5800: turn your Quadro into a GeForce