VOGONS


First post, by SheikYerbouti

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I've been offered a Tseng Labs ET4000/W32P PCI Rev. A for 30 euros. Wikipedia says, that revisions prior to D "had some design problems that caused sub-optimal or problematic operation when used in PCI implementations". Does anyone know more about what these are? Is the card itself a good choice for a Pentium 75 socket 5 gaming computer, or should I say no thanks to the 30 euro deal?

Reply 1 of 16, by kixs

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I wouldn't bother with it unless you really want the Tseng card. Better option is an ET6000 model.

If you don't have any preferences get some cheap S3 Trio64 or Virge... it will work just fine.

Requests are also possible... /msg kixs

Reply 2 of 16, by SheikYerbouti

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kixs wrote on 2020-05-31, 09:23:

I wouldn't bother with it unless you really want the Tseng card. Better option is an ET6000 model.

If you don't have any preferences get some cheap S3 Trio64 or Virge... it will work just fine.

So my other choice S3 Trio64V2/DX would be a better choice?

Reply 3 of 16, by dr.zeissler

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Et4000/w32 has two main issues:
- Image Quality is not perfect on areas of the same color.
- If Textmode 80x25 is centered on your tft then LowresVGA is about 0,5cm off right.

I would go for a S3-Card.

Retro-Gamer 😀 ...on different machines

Reply 4 of 16, by kixs

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SheikYerbouti wrote on 2020-05-31, 09:31:
kixs wrote on 2020-05-31, 09:23:

I wouldn't bother with it unless you really want the Tseng card. Better option is an ET6000 model.

If you don't have any preferences get some cheap S3 Trio64 or Virge... it will work just fine.

So my other choice S3 Trio64V2/DX would be a better choice?

It could be - check the manufacturer of the card (Diamond ones are usually high quality). Also check for the brightness issue many S3 cards have (might be too bright). But there is a fix for it... just search the forum.

Requests are also possible... /msg kixs

Reply 5 of 16, by The Serpent Rider

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Trio64V2/DX is faster. Not worth 30 euro for simple replaceable PCI video card.

Better option is an ET6000 model.

They cost a bit too much and not really all that great, compared to other cheap and commonly available options. It's also pain to upgrade them, since they use uncommon memory type.

Overall, there's no practical reason to choose any Tseng PCI card, unless you can grab it really cheap.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 6 of 16, by aaronkatrini

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I have mixed feelings about the Tseng 4000 PCI. It is a very fast card for 2D, but it is a Diva card. When I got it I put it on a system I have for testing stuff and it wouldn't show any picture and I left it there for some time thinking it was a defective card. After messing with it trying it again I found that it behaves differently in various configurations. On the OEM S370 mobo doesn't work, on a Dfi S370 the picture quality is weird (blurry in some areas with higher contrast colors), and on an ASUS i440Bx mobo works just fine.
I didn't pay much for mine (20eur+shipping) and I'm happy to have it. The Tseng 6000 is obviously the better choice but the prices are prohibitive. I'd recommend a Cirrus Logic 5446 as a cheap equivalent.

Reply 7 of 16, by The Serpent Rider

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I have mixed feelings about the Tseng 4000 PCI. It is a very fast card for 2D

Nah, it isn't, both for DOS and Windows. Although it won't matter much on anemic Pentium or K5.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 9 of 16, by Unknown_K

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The Et4000 was great in ISA and VLB but nothing special in PCI.

I actually like the ET6000 PCI cards but you could probably find a Matrox Millenium I/II or Mystique easier and cheaper plus you get some basic 3D.

The ET6000 has built in RAMDAC and the ET6100 has a better RAMDAC for higher resolutions (never did find that model must not be too common).

S3 Trio chips were the first with built in RAMDAC and can be found all over the place, the Virge line is probably the best for 2D.

Collector of old computers, hardware, and software

Reply 10 of 16, by Eep386

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(yes, I resurrected this not realizing it was that much older... mea culpa.)
Tseng ET4000/W32p PCI cards can be quite fussy things. A number of things will dictate their performance: the chip revision (Revision D is the one you really want), the memory installed (2MB will enable interleave mode apparently), and of course motherboard support. These things don't seem to take too well to later PCI boards; you're better off using an ET4000/W32p on an early Socket 5 board for instance.

Performance-wise, ARK2000 PCI cards are at least as good in DOS. Just be sure you get a good one, otherwise you'll run into stupid issues (a Hercules branded card with IC Works ZoomDAC never could stay correctly centered on an LCD, and my Diamond Stealth 64 2001 has faint vertical lines running through the picture which ruin it for me). As for which constitutes a 'good' one? Well, perhaps not one of the two cards that I mentioned. 😜

Life isn't long enough to re-enable every hidden option in every BIOS on every board... 🙁

Reply 11 of 16, by The Serpent Rider

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From my testing, they aren't anything special and performance is subpar to common 64-bit competitors, although impressive for 32-bit card.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 12 of 16, by Eep386

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ET4000/W32Ps routinely match or exceed your garden variety, vanilla S3 Trio64 in Mode 13h stuff in my experience. Windows performance is of course a completely different matter (the /W32 series were only 'okay' under Windows, even back in the day). Obviously more advanced S3 cards (Trio64V+ or ViRGE series) will comprehensively beat it out of sheer brute force: higher core/memory clocks, more advanced memory, MUCH better accelerator engine, etc. Provided, of course, that the makers of the cards bothered to build them properly.

I bought my second /W32P card broken a while back but I was able to resuscitate it. (What a workout of a fix that was.) I am running it in my Zida 5DIL-fitted system right now.

Life isn't long enough to re-enable every hidden option in every BIOS on every board... 🙁

Reply 13 of 16, by The Serpent Rider

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ET4000/W32Ps routinely match or exceed your garden variety, vanilla S3 Trio64 in Mode 13h stuff in my experience.

With S3 tweaks - nope.

Obviously more advanced S3 cards (Trio64V+ or ViRGE series) will comprehensively beat it out of sheer brute force: higher core/memory clocks,

Common noname S3 Virge in DOS/GUI performance isn't any faster than classical S3 Trio64. They share mostly the same 2D core and both slower than refreshed S3 Trio 64V2/DX, which has 170 Mhz RAMDAC. In fact, highly clocked S3 Trio64 card scores quite high in my list, higher than most S3 Virge cards. And of course it can beat ET4000/W32P in any category.

PCI Video cards benchmark: Electric Boogaloo Edition

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 14 of 16, by Eep386

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Well yeah, if you overdrive the S3 card by reprogramming its timings, there's a fair chance it'll turn more impressive results under Phil's benchmark suite. Piling on clock cycles and shaving wait states tends to do that regardless of the chipset used.
I'm talking stock here - I had a vanilla Trio64-based Diamond Stealth 64 PCI years back that was a royal slug, even with 2MB fitted. (A shame, because it had what I thought was a lovely picture for the time.)

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-02-01, 04:23:

Common noname S3 Virge in DOS/GUI performance isn't any faster than classical S3 Trio64. They share mostly the same 2D core and both slower than refreshed S3 Trio 64V2/DX, which has 170 Mhz RAMDAC.

Granted, but bear in mind 'garden variety' S3 ViRGE/Trio cards, of all models/revisions, come with widely varying clockspeeds and memory arrangements. I've owned a lot of S3 cards over the years, and they all varied immensely in performance: I've seen no-name ViRGE/DX PCI cards with 4MB get curbstomped by Trio64V+ PCI cards with 2MB. It's all up to how the manufacturers configured the cards, and the motherboard you use.
For these reasons, I tend to shun S3 cards with slow (60ns+) rated memory as it's been a fairly reliable indicator of what I'm in for.

Don't get the idea that I'm shilling the ET4000/W32P or anything because I've already mentioned its mediocre GUI engine. As with its WD90C33 stablemate, the GUI accelerator of that card was intended originally for Windows 3.1-era stuff. The ET6x00 is considerably faster, but unfortunately its VGA compatibility is borderline broken. (Hello, glitched scrolling in Jazz Jackrabbit.)
My ARK2000 cards on the other hand, I just wish they had better VGA outputs. My Mega Star ET4000/W32P cards have bright, sharp and vertical line-free outputs.

Life isn't long enough to re-enable every hidden option in every BIOS on every board... 🙁

Reply 15 of 16, by Brightraven

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I was testing out a Siemens-Nixdorf W26361-D850 today, but I thought it was dying on me as I was getting all sorts of issues. (This card was working fine when I was benchmarking it along with all my PCI cards on a Gigabyte GA-586TX3 board.) I plugged it into my newly acquired MSI MS-6119 BX2 and Diamond Viper 550, but it does not work with PC Player Benchmark and Quake in 640x480. It also locked-up when loading Doom.

Didn't think it was a VESA BIOS issue at the time for some reason, so I thought I would test it on an older board. I knew it worked fine on a TX chipset, but didn't have the Giagbyte to hand, so I got out my Supermicro P5MMS98. Well, that was a mistake! The board booted but locked up after it counted the memory. I can get into the (AMI WinBIOS) but the left edge has a yellow vertical line which isn't normal. Now I'm sure it was on the Virge of death right? (Perhaps it has an issue with the Cyrix 6x86MX 233 with 75MHz FSB?)

Maybe third time lucky, so I got out another board a Gigabyte GA-5AX, and this time it booted into DOS. Again the same issue as the 440BX board, 640x480 was not working so it had to be a VESA BIOS problem. Used Univbe which solved the issue with PC Player but not with Quake. Has anyone got Quake working in 640x480? Anyway, glad to know it isn't dead as I lucked out getting this card in an auction as "non-working" along with some other cards.

So yeah, the ET4000/w32p is a "diva" card but it is very fast in dos! The moral of the story here is to consult Vogons first so you don't waste 2 hours of your life!

Reply 16 of 16, by Anonymous Coward

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I know I'm a bit late to the thread, but from what I remember reading the A and B revisions of the ET4000W32P had a buggy PCI interface. I've never owned one of these, so I don't know exactly how buggy, but they are said to be slower than the rev C and D. I don't believe VLB cards that use rev A and B are affected.

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