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First post, by RetroSpector78

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Hi,

I have a newly installed Windows 98 SE Pentium 3 550Mhz machine with an NVidia GeForce FX 5700 AGP card.

The system was running ok with an FX 5200 and the 45.23 but wanted to try this card as well.

Because the 45.23 NVidia drivers didn't work for the FX 5700 I decided to try both the 56.64 and 81.98.

With both versions of the driver the card is detected fine in win98, but quake 2 and quake 3 in OpenGL mode are running very very slow ... like 1 frame per 10 seconds. Something definitely wrong.
Applications like 3D Mark 99 (3D Mark needs a 3D-accelerator that is capable of using textures) and 3D Mark 2000 (3D Mark requires a 3D-accelerator with 4MV or more video memory) also don't work with the card

I also tried "patching" the 45.23 drivers by

%NVIDIA&DEV_0341.DeviceDesc% = NV30,      PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_0341
%NVIDIA&DEV_0342.DeviceDesc% = NV30, PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_0342
%NVIDIA&DEV_0343.DeviceDesc% = NV30, PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_0343
%NVIDIA&DEV_0344.DeviceDesc% = NV30, PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_0344

and

NVIDIA&DEV_0341.DeviceDesc="NVIDIA GeForce FX 5700 Ultra"
NVIDIA&DEV_0342.DeviceDesc="NVIDIA GeForce FX 5700"
NVIDIA&DEV_0343.DeviceDesc="NVIDIA GeForce FX 5700LE"
NVIDIA&DEV_0344.DeviceDesc="NVIDIA GeForce FX 5700VE"

to the Nvaml.inf. But after doing that windows boots with weird artifacts.

Is it possible to run this card in win98 for gaming ?

Reply 1 of 25, by texterted

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Try some of the 60 series drivers. Also, do the dxdiag tests in case something got corrupted changing drivers.

Cheers

Ted

98se/W2K :- Asus A8v Dlx. A-64 3500+, 512 mb ddr, Radeon 9800 Pro, SB Live.
XP Pro:- Asus P5 Q SE Plus, C2D E8400, 4 Gig DDR2, Radeon HD4870, SB Audigy 2ZS.

Reply 2 of 25, by bofh.fromhell

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Second that.
Driver issue for sure.
Had the same thing when playing with my MVP3 boards, very picky when choosing drivers for nVidia cards for some reason.

I use "GlClock" when testing drivers, it starts fast and will instantly tell you if the drivers are OK =)
http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/archives/glclock-6.0b6.0.zip
(authors site, but ofc be careful with links)

Reply 4 of 25, by RetroSpector78

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texterted wrote on 2021-02-07, 03:19:

Try some of the 60 series drivers. Also, do the dxdiag tests in case something got corrupted changing drivers.

Will try the 61.76 but I thought the earlier the better with Win98SE

However, as soon as I install the 56.64 driver according to dxdiag Direct3D Acceleration is not available (even with the FX5200).
(It also only detects 1MB of video memory with the 56.64 driver)

(Pretty sure I've used 56.64 in the past with these types of cards on a win98 box so not sure why this driver wouldn't work).

Reply 5 of 25, by bofh.fromhell

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Almost heresy.
But when I get stuck on something i suspect is a SW issue but can't be sure I grab another HDD and install another OS.
Usually Win ME if its W98 giving me problems.

That said, i recently had a fight with an AGP FX-5700VE in WinXP.
Turns out its really picky with drivers.
Ended up with 9x.xx drivers, anything newer just didn't wanna play along -.-
I suspect that maby the slipstreamed "SP4" I use is somehow behind the problems.

Reply 6 of 25, by texterted

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Try re-installing your chipset driver too. Some of those later Nvidia drivers are proper windows killers. I've seen them remove the "new" menu, when you right click, and all sorts of funky stuff!

Cheers

Ted

98se/W2K :- Asus A8v Dlx. A-64 3500+, 512 mb ddr, Radeon 9800 Pro, SB Live.
XP Pro:- Asus P5 Q SE Plus, C2D E8400, 4 Gig DDR2, Radeon HD4870, SB Audigy 2ZS.

Reply 7 of 25, by darry

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texterted wrote on 2021-02-08, 14:33:

Try re-installing your chipset driver too. Some of those later Nvidia drivers are proper windows killers. I've seen them remove the "new" menu, when you right click, and all sorts of funky stuff!

That's a relatively known feature of 81.98, AFAICR . There is a workaround/fix for this somewhere . Though thay only be what is visible and it may cause other issues .

As a general rule, I make full bare-metal backups BEFORE I start experimenting with practically anything on something as fragile as Windows 9x . I use Acronis TrueImage, but Clonezilla is a free alternative . I also keep several generations of backups in case I need to revert later .

If something borks Windows 98 SE and you can't or don't want to restore a backup, running Scanreg from Windows' pure real-mode DOS (not a DOS box), will let you restore a prior copy of the registry (it keeps 5 or so copies and I believe it generates a new one after every successful boot, but not sure about that last part)

PSA : Backups area good thing for any OS setup . This may be stating the obvious, but I have seen so many people having a crash without having any backups after being warned many times, that I've almost run out of "I told you so"s . 😉

Reply 8 of 25, by texterted

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Aye, wise words darry.

I have mine on a 60GB SSD in a caddy. I have several "images" that I take using Macrium Reflect, running on my XP machine. One for each hardware set that I use on that 98se machine. I'm always swapping out graphics cards and such. Any serious maladies can be reverted in a couple of minutes. I have the SSD in a front bay caddy on the 98 machine. So I can easily pop the drive in and out. Macrium also "trims" the drive, on restore, as a side benefit.

Cheers

Ted

98se/W2K :- Asus A8v Dlx. A-64 3500+, 512 mb ddr, Radeon 9800 Pro, SB Live.
XP Pro:- Asus P5 Q SE Plus, C2D E8400, 4 Gig DDR2, Radeon HD4870, SB Audigy 2ZS.

Reply 9 of 25, by bloodem

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RetroSpector78 wrote on 2021-02-06, 23:03:

Because the 45.23 NVidia drivers didn't work for the FX 5700 I decided to try both the 56.64 and 81.98.

Did you try to force the installation for 45.23? I never had an FX 5700 to actually test, but it might work.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 10 of 25, by RetroSpector78

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texterted wrote on 2021-02-08, 14:33:

Try re-installing your chipset driver too. Some of those later Nvidia drivers are proper windows killers. I've seen them remove the "new" menu, when you right click, and all sorts of funky stuff!

I thought that was "normal" for nvidia drivers 😀 Seen that on a lot of systems.

Reply 11 of 25, by RetroSpector78

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darry wrote on 2021-02-08, 15:08:

As a general rule, I make full bare-metal backups BEFORE I start experimenting with practically anything on something as fragile as Windows 9x . I use Acronis TrueImage, but Clonezilla is a free alternative . I also keep several generations of backups in case I need to revert later .

If something borks Windows 98 SE and you can't or don't want to restore a backup, running Scanreg from Windows' pure real-mode DOS (not a DOS box), will let you restore a prior copy of the registry (it keeps 5 or so copies and I believe it generates a new one after every successful boot, but not sure about that last part)

PSA : Backups area good thing for any OS setup . This may be stating the obvious, but I have seen so many people having a crash without having any backups after being warned many times, that I've almost run out of "I told you so"s . 😉

yeah not sure what the issue is ... I expect the motherboard / chipset.

It is a MS-6163VA ATX VIA mainboard using the VIA® VT82C693 chipset.
I tried the Via chipset drivers (VIA 4in1 v4.35 and ​VIA Hyperion 4.56), and that resulted in dxdiag to recognise the video memory ok but all Direct3D stuff hangs the PC.
Wonder if there is a known issue with this chipset and these nVidia drivers ?

Reply 12 of 25, by darry

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RetroSpector78 wrote on 2021-02-08, 19:01:
yeah not sure what the issue is ... I expect the motherboard / chipset. […]
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darry wrote on 2021-02-08, 15:08:

As a general rule, I make full bare-metal backups BEFORE I start experimenting with practically anything on something as fragile as Windows 9x . I use Acronis TrueImage, but Clonezilla is a free alternative . I also keep several generations of backups in case I need to revert later .

If something borks Windows 98 SE and you can't or don't want to restore a backup, running Scanreg from Windows' pure real-mode DOS (not a DOS box), will let you restore a prior copy of the registry (it keeps 5 or so copies and I believe it generates a new one after every successful boot, but not sure about that last part)

PSA : Backups area good thing for any OS setup . This may be stating the obvious, but I have seen so many people having a crash without having any backups after being warned many times, that I've almost run out of "I told you so"s . 😉

yeah not sure what the issue is ... I expect the motherboard / chipset.

It is a MS-6163VA ATX VIA mainboard using the VIA® VT82C693 chipset.
I tried the Via chipset drivers (VIA 4in1 v4.35 and ​VIA Hyperion 4.56), and that resulted in dxdiag to recognise the video memory ok but all Direct3D stuff hangs the PC.
Wonder if there is a known issue with this chipset and these nVidia drivers ?

I once had a defective Quadro FX1100 (essentially aQuadro equivalent of an FX 5700) that produced no artefacts but quickly and regularly crashed the system when 3D was in use. Another identical FX1100 looking (including same vBIOS) worked fine in the same system . Not saying this is necessarily the case here, but it's possible .

EDIT: It might be a power supply issue . The FX 5700 does draw more than an FX 5200 .
EDIT2: Corrected obvious typo .

Reply 13 of 25, by RetroSpector78

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darry wrote on 2021-02-08, 19:12:

I once had a defective Quadro FX1100 (essentially aQuadro equivalent of an FX 5700) that produced no artefacts but quickly and regularly crashed the system when 3D was in use. Another identical FX1100 looking (including same vBIOS) worked fine in the same system . Not saying this is necessarily the case here, but it's possible .

EDIT: It might be a power supply issue . The FX 5700 does draw more than an FX 5200 .
EDIT2: Corrected obvious typo .

Yeah but I still have the FX 5200 in the computer ... just wanted to see if I could upgrade the drivers. Haven't upgraded the videocard yet 😀

Reply 14 of 25, by duga3

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darry wrote on 2021-02-08, 15:08:

As a general rule, I make full bare-metal backups BEFORE I start experimenting with practically anything on something as fragile as Windows 9x .

This. A million times. It's like when having to quicksave a lot on some really hard game. Windows 98 is super fragile.

The following software allows me to create delta snapshots of any Windows (98 too) disk partition. That particular feature allows me to do relatively quick backups and at a minimum byte size. They call it "backup changes only" in the menu I think and should by available after you do the first full backup. You can later spawn these (delta or not) backups into dozens of partitions separately on a single disk and switch between them with their boot manager. It is great to have multiple restore points because you often hit a wall after several steps of installing something in W98.

W98 quality of life: +10

TeraByte BootIt Bare Metal boot manager
TeraByte Image for DOS (GUI) for backups/restores

(AFAIK they sell a bundle of both at discount)

98/XP multi-boot system with P55 chipset (build log)
Screenshots
10Hz FM

Reply 15 of 25, by RetroSpector78

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duga3 wrote on 2021-02-08, 19:30:
The following software allows me to create delta snapshots of any Windows (98 too) disk partition. That particular feature allo […]
Show full quote

The following software allows me to create delta snapshots of any Windows (98 too) disk partition. That particular feature allows me to do relatively quick backups and at a minimum byte size. They call it "backup changes only" in the menu I think and should by available after you do the first full backup. You can later spawn these (delta or not) backups into dozens of partitions separately on a single disk and switch between them with their boot manager. It is great to have multiple restore points because you often hit a wall after several steps of installing something in W98.

W98 quality of life: +10

TeraByte BootIt Bare Metal boot manager
TeraByte Image for DOS (GUI) for backups/restores

(AFAIK they sell a bundle of both at discount)

I am looking for a piece of software that is able to show a delta (new files added / files modified / files deleted + registry changes) between timepoints (for example to see what changed after a driver installation).
Do you know of something capable of doing that ?

Reply 16 of 25, by duga3

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RetroSpector78 wrote on 2021-02-08, 19:53:
duga3 wrote on 2021-02-08, 19:30:
The following software allows me to create delta snapshots of any Windows (98 too) disk partition. That particular feature allo […]
Show full quote

The following software allows me to create delta snapshots of any Windows (98 too) disk partition. That particular feature allows me to do relatively quick backups and at a minimum byte size. They call it "backup changes only" in the menu I think and should by available after you do the first full backup. You can later spawn these (delta or not) backups into dozens of partitions separately on a single disk and switch between them with their boot manager. It is great to have multiple restore points because you often hit a wall after several steps of installing something in W98.

W98 quality of life: +10

TeraByte BootIt Bare Metal boot manager
TeraByte Image for DOS (GUI) for backups/restores

(AFAIK they sell a bundle of both at discount)

I am looking for a piece of software that is able to show a delta (new files added / files modified / files deleted + registry changes) between timepoints (for example to see what changed after a driver installation).
Do you know of something capable of doing that ?

I have some registry oriented programs that can help you find registry changes. See attachments. They probably don't check files though and I don't know such programs. I also don't remember if they work on Windows 98, but some of them will definitely work in (at least) Windows XP.

Attachments

  • Filename
    regfromapp.zip
    File size
    47.5 KiB
    Downloads
    38 downloads
    File license
    Fair use/fair dealing exception
  • Filename
    whatchanged.exe
    File size
    96 KiB
    Downloads
    39 downloads
    File license
    Fair use/fair dealing exception
  • Filename
    Regshot-1.9.0.7z
    File size
    155.29 KiB
    Downloads
    42 downloads
    File license
    Fair use/fair dealing exception
  • Filename
    regfromapp-x64.zip
    File size
    58.38 KiB
    Downloads
    39 downloads
    File license
    Fair use/fair dealing exception

98/XP multi-boot system with P55 chipset (build log)
Screenshots
10Hz FM

Reply 17 of 25, by RetroSpector78

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bloodem wrote on 2021-02-08, 16:09:
RetroSpector78 wrote on 2021-02-06, 23:03:

Because the 45.23 NVidia drivers didn't work for the FX 5700 I decided to try both the 56.64 and 81.98.

Did you try to force the installation for 45.23? I never had an FX 5700 to actually test, but it might work.

Update after trying lots of nvidia detonator driver versions 🙂 :

- v45.23 works
- v53.04 works
- v56.64 issues with direct3d
- v61.76 issues with direct3d
- v81.98 works

Reply 18 of 25, by RetroSpector78

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duga3 wrote on 2021-02-08, 20:04:

I have some registry oriented programs that can help you find registry changes. See attachments. They probably don't check files though and I don't know such programs. I also don't remember if they work on Windows 98, but some of them will definitely work in (at least) Windows XP.

Thx a lot ! Will take a look....

Reply 19 of 25, by RetroSpector78

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darry wrote on 2021-02-08, 19:12:

I once had a defective Quadro FX1100 (essentially aQuadro equivalent of an FX 5700) that produced no artefacts but quickly and regularly crashed the system when 3D was in use. Another identical FX1100 looking (including same vBIOS) worked fine in the same system . Not saying this is necessarily the case here, but it's possible .

EDIT: It might be a power supply issue . The FX 5700 does draw more than an FX 5200 .
EDIT2: Corrected obvious typo .

In this case it was a driver issue ... there are so many nvidia driver versions and I've been told it's always best to use the oldest one possible for these old machines.

In my case for the FX5700 the v53.04 works while the v56.64 and higher no longer work. But the latest v81.98 also works.
Sometimes difficult to find logic.