drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-03-07, 15:27:

bloodem wrote on 2021-03-07, 14:59:

There's no other way of putting it: a Pentium MMX will be a SEVERE bottleneck for newer video cards (when talking about games, because we're not talking about Microsoft Word, are we?).
Generally speaking, the Pentium MMX bottlenecks most video cards 😀, but newer video cards (2001+) will increase this handicap even further, since their drivers expect CPUs with newer instructions (SSE/SSE2) and substantially more raw power.

I agree, most machines based on P5 won't be able to keep up with 'newer' video cards (newer meaning cards that came out in the later 90s). There are tons of threads about this on vogons but personally testing a tnt2 yielded basically the same framerate in opengl stars test regardless of the resolution i chose, which to mean seems like a bottleneck outside the graphics card.

Anyway I'm a bit confused as to the purpose of this thread - is it to just discuss which cards *can* POST and "work," or is it a discussion about their performance and/or viability in a socket 7 system? If the former - I think it should be noted that even if the chipset is the same, certain motherboards may just not work with specific cards. I have a socket 7 which refuses to work with the aforementioned PCI TNT2 for example, but works fine with another system based on the same chipset.

There seems to be a serious issue finding cards that even work on these boards. Even older period cards seem to be not working let alone later cards with driver issues.

So yeah, this is about which cards you can buy for these systems and expect a decent chance of being able to use them. It’s in the hopes of helping people avoid buying a slew of cards trying to figure out all the options that will even work on the system let alone figuring out which one performs the best in the games and tasks I have slated for them. Of all the cards I have (including older ones like tridents and a ati rage 128 the only card that has come close to working well for my uses has been the radeon 7000 so far but I can tell it’s slower in what I’m doing than the 6200 I had issues with in 9x/ME

My next attempt is a x600 on a adapter. Fingers crossed.

RichB93 wrote on 2021-03-06, 14:05:

For me, period correct seems to be the best shout because anything newer is really bottlenecked. Pentium II onwards is where CP […]
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For me, period correct seems to be the best shout because anything newer is really bottlenecked. Pentium II onwards is where CPU and GPU performance really skyrocketed.

So in my machines, I've cycled around the following cards:
- Matrox G200
- ATi RAGE PRO Turbo (Mine is an All-in-Wonder variant)
- S3 ViRGE DX (Had a few no-name cards, plus a Diamond Stealth 3D 2000)

Period correct is nice when everything is period correct, but I don't have a period correct monitor. I start to get grumpy running 1024x768 on a wide screen monitor for any length of time. (*)

I found a crappy, passive cooled Jaton Geforce MX 4000 with no bracket that works on my TX board with reasonable wide screen resolutions in Win98se. While I sometimes have regrets, found & free frequently beats period correct in my workshop almost every time. The MX 4000 is about 7 years too new, but it's not so powerful that I feel like I am wasting potential running it with a Cyrix M2 333 CPU .

(*To be fair, eventually my eyes adjust, and then my refection looks thinner afterwards, for a little bit, at least, so there is that....)

douglar wrote on 2021-03-07, 22:33:

Period correct is nice when everything is period correct, but I don't have a period correct monitor. I start to get grumpy runn […]
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RichB93 wrote on 2021-03-06, 14:05:

For me, period correct seems to be the best shout because anything newer is really bottlenecked. Pentium II onwards is where CP […]
Show full quote

For me, period correct seems to be the best shout because anything newer is really bottlenecked. Pentium II onwards is where CPU and GPU performance really skyrocketed.

So in my machines, I've cycled around the following cards:
- Matrox G200
- ATi RAGE PRO Turbo (Mine is an All-in-Wonder variant)
- S3 ViRGE DX (Had a few no-name cards, plus a Diamond Stealth 3D 2000)

Period correct is nice when everything is period correct, but I don't have a period correct monitor. I start to get grumpy running 1024x768 on a wide screen monitor for any length of time. (*)

I found a crappy, passive cooled Jaton Geforce MX 4000 with no bracket that works on my TX board with reasonable wide screen resolutions in Win98se. While I sometimes have regrets, found & free frequently beats period correct in my workshop almost every time. The MX 4000 is about 7 years too new, but it's not so powerful that I feel like I am wasting potential running it with a Cyrix M2 333 CPU .

Photo Mar 07, 5 14 20 PM.jpg

(*To be fair, eventually my eyes adjust, and then my refection looks thinner afterwards, for a little bit, at least, so there is that....)

Nah man, you need to be using a screen that supports setting the correct aspect ratio 😉 1024x768 or bust!

douglar wrote on 2021-03-07, 22:33:

Period correct is nice when everything is period correct, but I don't have a period correct monitor. I start to get grumpy runn […]
Show full quote

RichB93 wrote on 2021-03-06, 14:05:

For me, period correct seems to be the best shout because anything newer is really bottlenecked. Pentium II onwards is where CP […]
Show full quote

For me, period correct seems to be the best shout because anything newer is really bottlenecked. Pentium II onwards is where CPU and GPU performance really skyrocketed.

So in my machines, I've cycled around the following cards:
- Matrox G200
- ATi RAGE PRO Turbo (Mine is an All-in-Wonder variant)
- S3 ViRGE DX (Had a few no-name cards, plus a Diamond Stealth 3D 2000)

Period correct is nice when everything is period correct, but I don't have a period correct monitor. I start to get grumpy running 1024x768 on a wide screen monitor for any length of time. (*)

I found a crappy, passive cooled Jaton Geforce MX 4000 with no bracket that works on my TX board with reasonable wide screen resolutions in Win98se. While I sometimes have regrets, found & free frequently beats period correct in my workshop almost every time. The MX 4000 is about 7 years too new, but it's not so powerful that I feel like I am wasting potential running it with a Cyrix M2 333 CPU .

Photo Mar 07, 5 14 20 PM.jpg

(*To be fair, eventually my eyes adjust, and then my refection looks thinner afterwards, for a little bit, at least, so there is that....)

So working good with no glitches or driver issues?

RichB93 wrote on 2021-03-08, 01:13:

Nah man, you need to be using a screen that supports setting the correct aspect ratio 😉 1024x768 or bust!

Man, you are tempting me to pull one of those old boat anchors out of the dumpster. But it's not the pulling it out of the dumpster that's the problem. It's the putting them back in that makes me so sad. And I already said goodbye to all my 20" monsters once. Maybe if I see a Trinitron or a Multisync. https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/6/16973914/tv … -gaming-vintage

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-03-08, 01:24:

So working good with no glitches or driver issues?

So far so good with 81.98_ForceWare, but I don't use this system on a daily basis or for heavy lifting. I seem to remember that passively cooled Geforce MX4000 cards didn't have a long life span back in the day, so I don't really beat on it too much. The heat sink looks like it came out of the "minimally viable" bin and those capacitors could probably double as solid state confetti cannons in the right situation.

The ideal pairing would be a voodoo 1 or a voodoo 2. A 233mmx CPU can see some benefit from moving to a voodoo 2 over a voodoo 1 but not much. Anything slower even less so. Mostly you get the chance to run at higher resolutions.

In any modernish 3d game you are going to be hopelessly CPU bound anyway. From what I remember of phil benchmarking on the his K6-3+ any Nvidia or ATI card that is sufficiently fast performs basically the same. I haven't seen good evidence that driver overhead is real.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-03-08, 14:08:

I haven't seen good evidence that driver overhead is real.

Driver overhead is certainly real. The older Nvidia driver the less overhead when comparing the same GPU. ATI drivers generally have larger overhead than nvidia drivers. Especially later ones that require dotNET.

Example a Gf2 running 7.xx driver will be faster than a gf2 running 45.xx. Driver overhead matters more on slow cpus.

Only way you wouldn't notice it is comparing a apples to oranges.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-03-08, 14:08:

The ideal pairing would be a voodoo 1 or a voodoo 2. A 233mmx CPU can see some benefit from moving to a voodoo 2 over a voodoo 1 but not much. Anything slower even less so. Mostly you get the chance to run at higher resolutions.

This is not really accurate, for some reason people really underestimate these late Pentium MMX CPUs.
A Voodoo 1 is an extremely slow card and it severely bottlenecks a Pentium MMX 233 in basically all games (those that don't have a low game engine frame limit, anyway).
In some games (such as GLQuake), an overclocked Pentium MMX 233 (at 266 / 290 MHz, with 75 or 83 MHz FSB) will be bottlenecked by a Voodoo 2 even at 640 x 480. So it's not too far-fetched to consider a Voodoo 3, especially if you're looking to play at high resolutions (and you can even underclock it a bit, which will decrease the temperatures).

Some results for a Pentium MMX 233 @ 290 MHz that I just tested (paired with a Voodoo 3):
GLQuake 640 x 480: 128 FPS (114 FPS with SB Live sound card)
Quake 2 640 x 480: 61 FPS (57 FPS with SB Live sound card)
Unreal: 36 FPS average / 14 FPS min (playthrough of the first 2 levels)

For the record, a Voodoo 1 is only capable of ~30 FPS average in Quake 2 @ 640 x 480, with frequent dips to single digit frame rates.

With Pentium MMX and other similar systems, a sound card capable of Direct Sound hardware acceleration is an absolute must, otherwise the performance hit can be extreme (we're talking 30 - 40% lower frame rate).

bloodem wrote on 2021-03-08, 16:18:

The ideal pairing would be a voodoo 1 or a voodoo 2. A 233mmx CPU can see some benefit from moving to a voodoo 2 over a voodoo 1 but not much. Anything slower even less so. Mostly you get the chance to run at higher resolutions.
With Pentium MMX and other similar systems, a sound card capable of Direct Sound hardware acceleration is an absolute must, otherwise the performance hit can be extreme (we're talking 30 - 40% lower frame rate).

I think that must be the difference. Last time I messed around with it I don't think I was using a newer sound card, and I couldn't get much more than 30fps in quake II. Good to know.

Just tried a x600 in an adapter no video on boot and hangs on booting os with two cards installed.

I’m kind of curious as to why no post display... the x1300 works.. the 7000 works, and the 1300 uses the same adapter chip so, maybe I need to flash the bios to make it work.. maybe it needs a pci bios.. maybe flashing the 1300 bios to it may make it post?

But how to do that if I can’t get os to boot...🤔

next up!: radeon 7500 pci

I want to try a radeon 9100 but can't find one..

can I flash a 7500 to a 9100? they are the same chip aren't they? so basically nothing more than an name change?

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-03-11, 05:26:

can I flash a 7500 to a 9100? they are the same chip aren't they? so basically nothing more than an name change?

Seems like there a decent chance that it would work. Just make sure you have a plan to go back in case it doesn't work.

You ought to mean 8500 to 9100.

Putas wrote on 2021-03-11, 18:46:

You ought to mean 8500 to 9100.

Yes, further research shows that it’s actually the 8500 that is the similar one to 9100

what was it, rv200 vs r200 similar names but not the exact same

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-03-11, 19:44:

Putas wrote on 2021-03-11, 18:46:

You ought to mean 8500 to 9100.

Yes, further research shows that it’s actually the 8500 that is the similar one to 9100

what was it, rv200 vs r200 similar names but not the exact same

I do not recall ever seeing a non AGP 8500 or 9100 .

There was a PCI variant of the 7500, AFAICR .

EDIT: The Radeon 9250 was apoarently available in PCI . AFAIK, it is slower than the 8500

darry wrote on 2021-03-11, 22:21:

I do not recall ever seeing a non AGP 8500 or 9100 . […]
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Sphere478 wrote on 2021-03-11, 19:44:

Putas wrote on 2021-03-11, 18:46:

You ought to mean 8500 to 9100.

Yes, further research shows that it’s actually the 8500 that is the similar one to 9100

what was it, rv200 vs r200 similar names but not the exact same

I do not recall ever seeing a non AGP 8500 or 9100 .

There was a PCI variant of the 7500, AFAICR .

EDIT: The Radeon 9250 was apoarently available in PCI . AFAIK, it is slower than the 8500

Apparently there is supposed to be a pci 9100 but I’ve not been able to find one

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-9100-pci.c805

There is PCI variant of Radeon 9000 locally but the seller wants 100 euros for it 😁

Paadam wrote on 2021-03-20, 21:18:

There is PCI variant of Radeon 9000 locally but the seller wants 100 euros for it 😁

I have a 7500 now.

https://www.gpuzoo.com/Compare/ATI_Radeon_750 … TI_Radeon_9000/

Think it’s worth it?

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-03-21, 03:35:

I have a 7500 now. […]
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Paadam wrote on 2021-03-20, 21:18:

There is PCI variant of Radeon 9000 locally but the seller wants 100 euros for it 😁

I have a 7500 now.

https://www.gpuzoo.com/Compare/ATI_Radeon_750 … TI_Radeon_9000/

Think it’s worth it?

Personally, I would not fork 100 Euros to MAYBE get a slight performance increase in a machine that will almost certainly be limited by the CPU to a point that will make the difference between a 7500 and 9000 very small, in all likelihood.

That said, it's your project and your money . I have been known to pour money into projects and lines of research that apparently interest almost nobody but me, so I am definitely not going to be one to judge if you do decide to go for the 9000, in the interest of your own curiosity , science, posterity and the interest of the people following this thread (myself included) .

I imagine, though, that once this project is finished (in my case, nothing is ever truly finished), you will have another one that will also require financial expenditure. Your finances are none of our business, but assuming that, like for most of us, your disposable income is not unlimited (or at least practically so), it may make more sense to consider putting that 100 Euros towards the next project than towards polishing this one to the extreme . Or maybe not, depending on how committed you are to closing in on absolutes .

Choose wisely . 😉

darry wrote on 2021-03-21, 04:19:

Personally, I would not fork 100 Euros to MAYBE get a slight performance increase in a machine that will almost certainly be lim […]
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Sphere478 wrote on 2021-03-21, 03:35:

I have a 7500 now. […]
Show full quote

Paadam wrote on 2021-03-20, 21:18:

There is PCI variant of Radeon 9000 locally but the seller wants 100 euros for it 😁

I have a 7500 now.

https://www.gpuzoo.com/Compare/ATI_Radeon_750 … TI_Radeon_9000/

Think it’s worth it?

Personally, I would not fork 100 Euros to MAYBE get a slight performance increase in a machine that will almost certainly be limited by the CPU to a point that will make the difference between a 7500 and 9000 very small, in all likelihood.

That said, it's your project and your money . I have been known to pour money into projects and lines of research that apparently interest almost nobody but me, so I am definitely not going to be one to judge if you do decide to go for the 9000, in the interest of your own curiosity , science, posterity and the interest of the people following this thread (myself included) .

I imagine, though, that once this project is finished (in my case, nothing is ever truly finished), you will have another one that will also require financial expenditure. Your finances are none of our business, but assuming that, like for most of us, your disposable income is not unlimited (or at least practically so), it may make more sense to consider putting that 100 Euros towards the next project than towards polishing this one to the extreme . Or maybe not, depending on how committed you are to closing in on absolutes .

Choose wisely . 😉

honestly, I was wondering if a radeon 9000 is faster than a 7500 at all. Benchmarks seem kind of tied at best.

I have a Pentium 200 MMX in a 430HX motherboard and can confirm it works fine with my PCI Geforce2 MX 200. It is fussy about drivers though, I installed the Nvidia 80.* drivers and DirectX 8 and dxdiag ran everything perfectly and passed everything despite saying there was no 3d hardware available. 3DMark 99 ran but there were no textures on the models. I rebuilt the machine with the 40.* Nvidia drivers and DirectX 7 and it all runs perfectly.