VOGONS


Reply 20 of 55, by darry

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underage wrote on 2021-06-19, 20:38:
... […]
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dvwjr wrote on 2008-07-03, 09:11:

for NVidia video adapters one must dis-assemble the vBIOS code to determine the location of the various tables which determine the VGA and VESA modes and 'dot-clock' values to change refresh rates.

dvwjr wrote on 2008-07-03, 09:11:

Once you program the CRTC registers directly, you can do almost anything in DOS... However, if you are going to use the standard VGA or VESA modes defined in the vBIOS via the Int 10h interface, the VESA video mode refresh rate might as well be changed with the standard VESA 3.0 vBIOS API, which is supported via the Int 10h/AX=4F02h ES:DI->CRTC information block with bit 11 of the BX=requested video mode bit set.

...

billyboy.png

Another option to consider to get 70Hz out of at least some Nvidia cards in DOS and using DVI, however, is described in these threads :

[HOWTO] Running DOS games natively with perfect 4:3 aspect ratio @ 70 Hz over DVI (using a DIY EDID emulator)
70Hz in pure DOS at 1600x1200 (or other) over DVI on an old card (FX5900) with modern monitor is possible (using a commercially available EDID emulator)

This approach has been tested successfully on multiple Nvidia cards, including a Geforce 6800 GT .

EDIT : Just saw that you intend to use a CRT, so this will not be applicable to your use case .

Reply 21 of 55, by shamino

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underage wrote on 2021-06-18, 23:58:

thx guys
I couldn't find any threads discussing the GF7 in depth, and I searched for quite a while. I want to use one of the cards with PCIe-AGP bridge chip, if i can get ahold of one

I don't know what motherboard you intend to use, but bear in mind the bridged AGP cards will start artifacting (geometry, not just pixels) when used with some motherboard chipsets. I definitely ran into this with 7600GS AGP on a VIA 694X board. Interesting thing though is that it only happened with certain games/ scenes of 3DMark and not others. The issues were 100% repeatable and consistent.
The same card worked perfectly with an i865 and an nForce2 though.

Nvidia probably didn't care about compatibility with chipsets they considered obsolete, but now that we're looking at these cards for retro builds the range of boards somebody might want to plug them into has widened. I wonder which other chipsets people have found these cards to get along with, or not.

Last edited by shamino on 2021-06-20, 00:48. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 22 of 55, by darry

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shamino wrote on 2021-06-20, 00:35:
I don't know what motherboard you intend to use, but bear in mind the bridged cards will malfunction and start artifacting when […]
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underage wrote on 2021-06-18, 23:58:

thx guys
I couldn't find any threads discussing the GF7 in depth, and I searched for quite a while. I want to use one of the cards with PCIe-AGP bridge chip, if i can get ahold of one

I don't know what motherboard you intend to use, but bear in mind the bridged cards will malfunction and start artifacting when used with some motherboard chipsets. I definitely ran into this with 7600GS AGP on a VIA 694X board. Interesting thing though is that it only happened with certain games/ scenes of 3DMark and not others. The issues were 100% repeatable and consistent.
Worked perfectly with an i865 though.
Nvidia probably didn't care about compatibility with chipsets they considered obsolete, but now that we're looking at these cards for retro builds the range of boards somebody might want to plug them into has widened.

That is a very good point .

Even a Geforce 6600 GT (same with a regular 6600) in an 815E board is unstable for me in at least Windows 98 SE . This is a known issue, AFAICR . I can predictably lock/crash/reboot the system just by scrolling quickly . A Geforce FX 5900 works fine in that setup . PSU is a Corsair RM850x .

On my P3B-F (440BX) a Radeon 9700 is only stable under Windows 98 SE if forced to AGP 1x , without any AGP overclocking. On the same board, a Geforce FX 5900 XT is fine at AGP 2X, whether I run the FSB at stock 100MHz or at overclocked to 133MHz (89MHz AGP base clock) .

Pairing AGP GPUs and motherboards that are multiple generations apart can result in headaches .

Reply 23 of 55, by The Serpent Rider

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underage wrote:

...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsCKnxe8hGY

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Reply 24 of 55, by cyclone3d

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darry wrote on 2021-06-20, 00:47:
That is a very good point . […]
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shamino wrote on 2021-06-20, 00:35:
I don't know what motherboard you intend to use, but bear in mind the bridged cards will malfunction and start artifacting when […]
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underage wrote on 2021-06-18, 23:58:

thx guys
I couldn't find any threads discussing the GF7 in depth, and I searched for quite a while. I want to use one of the cards with PCIe-AGP bridge chip, if i can get ahold of one

I don't know what motherboard you intend to use, but bear in mind the bridged cards will malfunction and start artifacting when used with some motherboard chipsets. I definitely ran into this with 7600GS AGP on a VIA 694X board. Interesting thing though is that it only happened with certain games/ scenes of 3DMark and not others. The issues were 100% repeatable and consistent.
Worked perfectly with an i865 though.
Nvidia probably didn't care about compatibility with chipsets they considered obsolete, but now that we're looking at these cards for retro builds the range of boards somebody might want to plug them into has widened.

That is a very good point .

Even a Geforce 6600 GT (same with a regular 6600) in an 815E board is unstable for me in at least Windows 98 SE . This is a known issue, AFAICR . I can predictably lock/crash/reboot the system just by scrolling quickly . A Geforce FX 5900 works fine in that setup . PSU is a Corsair RM850x .

On my P3B-F (440BX) a Radeon 9700 is only stable under Windows 98 SE if forced to AGP 1x , without any AGP overclocking. On the same board, a Geforce FX 5900 XT is fine at AGP 2X, whether I run the FSB at stock 100MHz or at overclocked to 133MHz (89MHz AGP base clock) .

Pairing AGP GPUs and motherboards that are multiple generations apart can result in headaches .

A lot of this has to do with either BIOS issues or the motherboards not actually being able to supply the amount of power that is specified in the slot specifications.

Sometimes it also has to do with newer drivers requiring instructions that the CPU being used doesn't supported if I remember correctly.

Then you also have the AGP cards that are PCIe cards with a PCIe to AGP bridge chip that apparently can be picky about what they actually work with.

And then there is the whole voltage issue and some cards having the universal keying when they shouldn't and some motherboards sporting universal slots when they shouldn't.

It really was a huge mess back then.

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Reply 25 of 55, by underage

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shamino wrote on 2021-06-20, 00:35:

I don't know what motherboard you intend to use, but bear in mind the bridged AGP cards will start artifacting (geometry, not just pixels) when used with some motherboard chipsets. I definitely ran into this with 7600GS AGP on a VIA 694X board. Interesting thing though is that it only happened with certain games/ scenes of 3DMark and not others. The issues were 100% repeatable and consistent.
The same card worked perfectly with an i865 and an nForce2 though.

Nvidia probably didn't care about compatibility with chipsets they considered obsolete, but now that we're looking at these cards for retro builds the range of boards somebody might want to plug them into has widened. I wonder which other chipsets people have found these cards to get along with, or not.

Probably some board with a 855gme or i865 chipset, haven't decided yet. But certainly some hardware that is more closely related to an AGP GF7, also to avoid being completely bottlenecked by the rest of the system.

Reply 26 of 55, by cyclone3d

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underage wrote on 2021-06-20, 12:14:
shamino wrote on 2021-06-20, 00:35:

I don't know what motherboard you intend to use, but bear in mind the bridged AGP cards will start artifacting (geometry, not just pixels) when used with some motherboard chipsets. I definitely ran into this with 7600GS AGP on a VIA 694X board. Interesting thing though is that it only happened with certain games/ scenes of 3DMark and not others. The issues were 100% repeatable and consistent.
The same card worked perfectly with an i865 and an nForce2 though.

Nvidia probably didn't care about compatibility with chipsets they considered obsolete, but now that we're looking at these cards for retro builds the range of boards somebody might want to plug them into has widened. I wonder which other chipsets people have found these cards to get along with, or not.

Probably some board with a 855gme or i865 chipset, haven't decided yet. But certainly some hardware that is more closely related to an AGP GF7, also to avoid being completely bottlenecked by the rest of the system.

If it were me, I would use an Intel P45 chipset as a minimum. Below that and you are going to be CPU limited. The Geforce FX5950U is CPU limited up to about 3.2Ghz on a Core2 Extreme.

The Gigabyte EP45-UD3P range are great overclocking boards. I would still guess you would be CPU limited though even at 4Ghz+. I would probably go with at least 1st gen i7 on the LGA1366 socket and overclock the snot out of it.

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Reply 27 of 55, by Riikcakirds

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underage wrote on 2021-06-18, 23:58:
thx guys I couldn't find any threads discussing the GF7 in depth, and I searched for quite a while. I want to use one of the car […]
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thx guys
I couldn't find any threads discussing the GF7 in depth, and I searched for quite a while. I want to use one of the cards with PCIe-AGP bridge chip, if i can get ahold of one.
Somewhat odd follow up questions - has anyone ever tried using a GF7 under pure DOS? Does it support VESA modes, and what version?
One other thing i'd like to try is getting a Vortex2 card working in win2k, and GF7 is the latest nvidia card with drivers for that OS.

I have been using a GF 7900GS @100hz in pure DOS since 2007 with UniRefresh. Dos svga vesa games at default @60hz is screen flicker headache inducing hell, especially on larger crts. DVI will output 60-72hz but could also be changed if panel supports it eg 144hz.
This is just with the factory 7900gs bios, no modding. For example I play Avalon hill Stalingrad (1995) at 1280x1024 in dos with unirefresh set to 100hz. Also hex modded this game to support 1600x1200 (all of these DOS vesa games that usually only run at 640x480 you can hex edit the vesa table to run up to software 1600x1200). GP2, Quake , NascarRacing 1 etc.

Reply 28 of 55, by The Serpent Rider

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Good to know that there are examples of fully working VBE 3.0 on these cards. Which brand btw?

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Reply 29 of 55, by underage

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Riikcakirds wrote on 2021-06-20, 23:46:

I have been using a GF 7900GS @100hz in pure DOS since 2007 with UniRefresh. Dos svga vesa games at default @60hz is screen flicker headache inducing hell, especially on larger crts. DVI will output 60-72hz but could also be changed if panel supports it eg 144hz.
This is just with the factory 7900gs bios, no modding. For example I play Avalon hill Stalingrad (1995) at 1280x1024 in dos with unirefresh set to 100hz. Also hex modded this game to support 1600x1200 (all of these DOS vesa games that usually only run at 640x480 you can hex edit the vesa table to run up to software 1600x1200). GP2, Quake , NascarRacing 1 etc.

Excellent, would you share the brand of this 7900GS? Maybe it's just a case of a non-standard BIOS ruining VBE compatibility with some cards. I was favoring a 7900GS AGP before focusing on the 7800gs, when I read that the latter had an additional Win98 driver on offer.
Are you using a PCIe or AGP card?

cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-20, 22:56:

If it were me, I would use an Intel P45 chipset as a minimum. Below that and you are going to be CPU limited. The Geforce FX5950U is CPU limited up to about 3.2Ghz on a Core2 Extreme.

The Gigabyte EP45-UD3P range are great overclocking boards. I would still guess you would be CPU limited though even at 4Ghz+. I would probably go with at least 1st gen i7 on the LGA1366 socket and overclock the snot out of it.

I'm entertaining the idea of an all-in-one, so this particular GF7 shan't be allowed to stretch it's legs 🤡
I might put another one in my Ivy Bridge though, if VBE 3.0 really does work with them.

Reply 30 of 55, by Riikcakirds

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underage wrote on 2021-06-21, 18:55:
Riikcakirds wrote on 2021-06-20, 23:46:
I have been using a GF 7900GS @100hz in pure DOS since 2007 with UniRefresh. Dos svga vesa games at default @60hz is screen […]
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I have been using a GF 7900GS @100hz in pure DOS since 2007 with UniRefresh. Dos svga vesa games at default @60hz is screen flicker headache inducing hell, especially on larger crts. DVI will output 60-72hz but could also be changed if panel supports it eg 144hz.
This is just with the factory 7900gs bios, no modding. For example I play Avalon hill Stalingrad (1995) at 1280x1024 in dos with unirefresh set to 100hz. Also hex modded this game to support 1600x1200 (all of these DOS vesa games that usually only run at 640x480 you can hex edit the vesa table to run up to software 1600x1200). GP2, Quake , NascarRacing 1 etc.

Excellent, would you share the brand of this 7900GS? Maybe it's just a case of a non-standard BIOS ruining VBE compatibility with some cards. I was favoring a 7900GS AGP before focusing on the 7800gs, when I read that the latter had an additional Win98 driver on offer.
Are you using a PCIe or AGP card?

Brand is Inno3D 256MB PCI-Express.
https://www.cdrinfo.com/d7/content/inno3d-7900gs?page=1
https://www.cnet.com/products/inno3d-geforce- … -256-mb-series/

Not had any problems with this card running any Dos games so far and it has VBE3. ATI/AMD apparently never made cards that contained a bios higher than VBE2.0 so is a no go for setting refresh rate in DOS.

THe 7900GS is newer than the cards tested here https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ but passed all the ones I tested. I haven't tried GF8 and newer nvidia cards in DOS but would not be surprised that at least a few generations newer than GF7 would still allow refresh rate to be set.

Reply 31 of 55, by underage

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Riikcakirds wrote on 2021-06-22, 18:37:
Brand is Inno3D 256MB PCI-Express. https://www.cdrinfo.com/d7/content/inno3d-7900gs?page=1 https://www.cnet.com/products/inno3d- […]
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Brand is Inno3D 256MB PCI-Express.
https://www.cdrinfo.com/d7/content/inno3d-7900gs?page=1
https://www.cnet.com/products/inno3d-geforce- … -256-mb-series/

Not had any problems with this card running any Dos games so far and it has VBE3. ATI/AMD apparently never made cards that contained a bios higher than VBE2.0 so is a no go for setting refresh rate in DOS.

THe 7900GS is newer than the cards tested here https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ but passed all the ones I tested. I haven't tried GF8 and newer nvidia cards in DOS but would not be surprised that at least a few generations newer than GF7 would still allow refresh rate to be set.

The stars are aligning, I bought a NOS Quadro version (FX 3500) of this exact card just a week ago. Is there any chance you would upload your card's BIOS?
Mine is going through a forwarding service though, and it's going to take a while to get to me, so I'm not in a hurry. Like sometime around Christmas would probably suffice 🎅😁

Reply 33 of 55, by cyclone3d

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Gotta move some resistors as well.

I've got some Quadro cards and I didn't really plan on modding them to GeForce cards.

Won't the old Quadro cards work with the GeForce drivers as long as you add the PCI IDs to the .inf file?

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Reply 34 of 55, by underage

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Well I guess I can do that, if it comes to it. Maybe the Quadro cards still have fully working VBE 3.0, in which case I probably wouldn't bother converting it either.
But when did this move beyond simple BIOS reflashing? Was that not sufficient for GF4 & GF5 series cards still?

Reply 35 of 55, by The Serpent Rider

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Won't the old Quadro cards work with the GeForce drivers

"It just works".

But when did this move beyond simple BIOS reflashing? Was that not sufficient for GF4 & GF5 series cards still?

It never was.

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Reply 36 of 55, by Riikcakirds

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underage wrote on 2021-06-23, 00:22:
Riikcakirds wrote on 2021-06-22, 18:37:
Brand is Inno3D 256MB PCI-Express. https://www.cdrinfo.com/d7/content/inno3d-7900gs?page=1 https://www.cnet.com/products/inno3d- […]
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Brand is Inno3D 256MB PCI-Express.
https://www.cdrinfo.com/d7/content/inno3d-7900gs?page=1
https://www.cnet.com/products/inno3d-geforce- … -256-mb-series/

Not had any problems with this card running any Dos games so far and it has VBE3. ATI/AMD apparently never made cards that contained a bios higher than VBE2.0 so is a no go for setting refresh rate in DOS.

THe 7900GS is newer than the cards tested here https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ but passed all the ones I tested. I haven't tried GF8 and newer nvidia cards in DOS but would not be surprised that at least a few generations newer than GF7 would still allow refresh rate to be set.

The stars are aligning, I bought a NOS Quadro version (FX 3500) of this exact card just a week ago. Is there any chance you would upload your card's BIOS?
Mine is going through a forwarding service though, and it's going to take a while to get to me, so I'm not in a hurry. Like sometime around Christmas would probably suffice 🎅😁

Attached the bios, I saved it with GPUZ in windows but checked it was identical hash when saved in DOS using NSSI.
Also pretty sure changing refresh rates in DOS on the FX 3500 will work with it's stock bios.

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7900GS-PCIE-256MB.7z
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Reply 37 of 55, by underage

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Riikcakirds wrote on 2021-06-23, 14:16:

Attached the bios, I saved it with GPUZ in windows but checked it was identical hash when saved in DOS using NSSI.
Also pretty sure changing refresh rates in DOS on the FX 3500 will work with it's stock bios.

7900GS-PCIE-256MB.7z

Awesome, many thanks for that 👍

Reply 38 of 55, by RayeR

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Hi, this sounds interesting and a bit incredible for me as I have some GF7xxx cards and tried various vbios versions (older and newer than your 5.71.22.41.00L) but with none the refresh rate setting worked. I just belived that nvidia discarded this feature from vbios a generations before GF7. If it really wors for you then it means nvidia didn't discarded it but it is just some way broken on most cards and it may be fixed. Also it would be interesting if this would apply for other bugs of newer GFs.

Please could you make a vbios dump of your VGA using the nVFlash utility (nvflash --save filename.rom)? Use version 5.80 or similar for this GF. https://x-drivers.com/catalog/flash/video_car … /12054/download
This is the only corrent way to dump nvidia vbios because the vbios shadowed in RAM after boot may be patched runtime at initialization and we need the vanila version from flashrom on the card. Newer GFs even has vbios >64kB so this is the only way to dump whole flashrom.

Also I'd like to know some details how you patched the game for 1600x1200. I tried to modify DOS graphics application 3D Studio 4 (Vibrant VESA driver) to add 1600x1200 over 1280x1024 but without success.

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Reply 39 of 55, by RayeR

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Well, I tried to load the BIOS dump on my sistem with 7900GT but the VBIOS doesn't fully works. Only in textmode but when switching to any VESA mode it hangs. So I cannot try if refresh settings works. So first I need a real dump of vbios from Inno card via NVFLASH.

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