What model and bus (ISA, VLB or PCI)? Also what is the main system based on?

kixs wrote on 2021-11-29, 19:04:

What model and bus (ISA, VLB or PCI)? Also what is the main system based on?

Good points, thanks.

Various systems:

1) Pentium (60 to 166 MHz), PCI bus
2) 486 (DX2 66 to DX4 100), PCI bus

possibly, also:

3) 486 (DX2 66 to DX4 120), VLB bus
4) 386 DX 40, VLB bus (if I can find such a motherboard)
5) 386 DX 40, ISA bus

Thanks

Mediocre.

In a nutshell 😉

PCI... nothing special. Good image quality but not top performance.
VLB... VRAM is top notch in Windows (up to 4MB VRAM), good in DOS. DRAM still very strong in Windows and good in DOS.
ISA... VRAM best in class in Windows (also up to 4MB VRAM) - surprisingly fast for ISA bus, good in DOS. DRAM only 2nd place after the VRAM version and good in DOS.

I can't say much about compatibility with DOS games.

kixs wrote on 2021-11-29, 21:26:

In a nutshell ;) […]
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In a nutshell 😉

PCI... nothing special. Good image quality but not top performance.
VLB... VRAM is top notch in Windows (up to 4MB VRAM), good in DOS. DRAM still very strong in Windows and good in DOS.
ISA... VRAM best in class in Windows (also up to 4MB VRAM) - surprisingly fast for ISA bus, good in DOS. DRAM only 2nd place after the VRAM version and good in DOS.

I can't say much about compatibility with DOS games.

Wow!
Thanks!!!
I guess, regardless of bus type, the Mach32 would be better for old DOS games compatibility?

I'd say they are probably pretty much the same compatibility wise.

kixs wrote on 2021-11-29, 22:34:

I'd say they are probably pretty much the same compatibility wise.

gotcha, thanks again

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-11-29, 21:02:

Mediocre.

thanks

Mach64 cards with ISA and VLB "flavors" are usually not something that is commonly available or could be bought for reasonable price.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-11-30, 14:45:

Mach64 cards with ISA and VLB "flavors" are usually not something that is commonly available or could be bought for reasonable price.

I noticed 🤣

I found ATI cards (Mach32, Mach64) just below average in DOS and average in GUI.

Check my test here - https://dependency-injection.com/vlb-vga-group-test/

IMHO the sweet spot (both excellent GUI and DOS) is something like S3 Trio64 DRAM or anything with ET4000 W32 i/p.

I remember ISA Mach32/64 compares much better with ISA counterparts and provides better (but I don't have comprehensive tests at hand).

mpe wrote on 2021-11-30, 15:16:

I found ATI cards (Mach32, Mach64) just below average in DOS and average in GUI. […]
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I found ATI cards (Mach32, Mach64) just below average in DOS and average in GUI.

Check my test here - https://dependency-injection.com/vlb-vga-group-test/

IMHO the sweet spot (both excellent GUI and DOS) is something like S3 Trio64 DRAM or anything with ET4000 W32 i/p.

I remember ISA Mach32/64 compares much better with ISA counterparts and provides better (but I don't have comprehensive tests at hand).

Whoooooa fantastic job!!!

Thanks!!!!!

mpe wrote on 2021-11-30, 15:16:

Check my test here - https://dependency-injection.com/vlb-vga-group-test/

WQHOOOOOOOOOOA BRO!!! 😳 (besides the previous whoa above!!)
You managed to get a VLB running at 41MHz and zero wait states??? How the heck did you do that? What VLB mobo are you using?

I also loved the "can be switched to zero waitstate operation using one of several undocumented jumpers located next to the VGA connector" part!

Great to hear the goodness of Tseng W32 cards. I have emotional baggage about that bro!
My first 'personal' PC (means, mine, not the older first 'family' PC which was a 286) was a Compaq ProLinea 4/33. I was so excited of having gotten a 486 DX in 1992, when all I had done for more than 1 year was DREAMING of getting my hands on a 386, since the 286 was pretty underperforming as you can imagine. I was drooling over the idea of a 386.

Anyway, the dream was struck by reading an article about the ISA bottleneck: I found out my mighty Prolinea wasn't as mighty as I imagined, with just 3 ISA slots.
HDD? Not a problem. EIDE didn't exist yet, and the speed of IDE HDDs wasn't bottlenecked by the ISA bus. Though the controller was integrated on the motherboard, so, could have been on local bus.

The graphics card tho! It was an ET4000 AX 1 MB. When I started learning (I was a mid-school kid), I quickly realized my card wasn't that good. I so wanted to buy a better graphics card, but I strongly suspected that the gains would have been meaningless due to the ISA slots. Indeed, I suspected the AX was on a local bus, because it was integrated on the motherboard (suspect confirmed as correct decades later thanks to the information-power of the internet).

I so wanted that the motherboard-integrated graphics chip would have been better than that. And I so wanted to have the 4/66 instead of the 4/33.

Well, decades later, I managed to get a Compaq Prolinea 4/66 on eBay, I have it right here. And its motherboard-integrated graphics chip is an ET4000 W32i (and it's on local bus!) 😁 😁

So, I guess as mid-range 486 for DOS and Win 3.xx it sounds like a great compromise, what do you think?

aries-mu wrote on 2021-11-30, 15:48:

You managed to get a VLB running at 41MHz and zero wait states??? How the heck did you do that? What VLB mobo are you using?

Yes. It was not that difficult. I am using NexGen VL motherboard, which is a kind of unusual as the bus is not driven directly by CPU, but by the chipset, which likely somwehat reduces the problem.

I am in the process of redoing my benchmarks (and adding even more cards) on a more conventional 486 system. Like Am5x86-133 and DX2-66. The numbers might change slightly, but I don't expect there will be relative differences between cards.

aries-mu wrote on 2021-11-30, 15:48:

mpe wrote on 2021-11-30, 15:16:

Check my test here - https://dependency-injection.com/vlb-vga-group-test/

WQHOOOOOOOOOOA BRO!!! 😳 (besides the previous whoa above!!)
You managed to get a VLB running at 41MHz and zero wait states??? How the heck did you do that? What VLB mobo are you using?

In my experience, it's not so much that VLB graphics won't do that, there are lots that do, but that VLB I/O cards won't co-exist with them without the wait state set. So with onboard, ISA or PCI i/o you're good to go, but otherwise you really need to cherrypick and match the graphics card and i/o card combo.

mpe wrote on 2021-11-30, 16:07:

Yes. It was not that difficult. I am using NexGen VL motherboard, which is a kind of unusual as the bus is not driven directly by CPU, but by the chipset, which likely somwehat reduces the problem.
I am in the process of redoing my benchmarks (and adding even more cards) on a more conventional 486 system. Like Am5x86-133 and DX2-66. The numbers might change slightly, but I don't expect there will be relative differences between cards.

Whoa fantastic! I'd like so much to know more about those little 'details'. I was pretty knowledgeable at those times, but not that much like you guys are. VL Bus managed by the chipset instead of the CPU... am I mistaken or does it sound like a slower design? Like one extra step? At least nowadays, direct-CPU buses for NVMe SSDs grant faster speeds than NVMe slots that go through the chipset. But I don't know if this analogy works or not with that old hardware...

BitWrangler wrote on 2021-11-30, 16:22:

In my experience, it's not so much that VLB graphics won't do that, there are lots that do, but that VLB I/O cards won't co-exist with them without the wait state set. So with onboard, ISA or PCI i/o you're good to go, but otherwise you really need to cherrypick and match the graphics card and i/o card combo.

I understand. Interesting, thanks.

Alright, then: mpe, BitWrangler and WHOEVER ELSE:

What would be in your opinion the best bet for supporting a 40 MHz Bus speed for the following (only pre-1994ish-1995ish cards to maintain the spirit of nostalgia that is the very reason behind all this - for what I can remember, S3 968 / Cirrus 5434 things like that were as late as it got until the market went wild and other interests caught my attention for a few years - I'd say Matrox Millenium and S3 Trio were already ahead of that time):

1) A non-caching EIDE (PIO Mode 4) PCI controller
2) A non-caching EIDE (PIO Mode 4) VL Bus controller
3) A non-caching Ultra DMA 33/66/100 PCI controller
4) A non-caching Ultra DMA 33/66/100 VL Bus controller
5) A caching EIDE (PIO Mode 4) PCI controller
6) A caching EIDE (PIO Mode 4) VL Bus controller
7) A caching Ultra DMA 33/66/100 PCI controller
8) A caching Ultra DMA 33/66/100 VL Bus controller

9) A non-caching SCSI (possibly at least W, ideally UW) PCI controller
10) A non-caching (possibly at least W, ideally UW) VL Bus controller
11) A caching (possibly at least W, ideally UW) PCI controller
12) A caching (possibly at least W, ideally UW) VL Bus controller

13) Best DOS-DOS Games-Win 3.xx sweet spot graphics card, VLB
14) Best DOS-DOS Games-Win 3.xx sweet spot graphics card, PCI
15) Best DOS-DOS Games graphics card, VLB
16) Best DOS-DOS Games graphics card, PCI
17) Best Win 3.xx graphics card, VLB
18) Best Win 3.xx graphics card, PCI

I understand it's a lot. So, don't worry, just if you know it on top of your mind, no need to do research for that. Even just a partial reply on only a couple of points. Thanks a lot.

this vlb-testrig with pci-cards would be interesting. all tested cards should have native win3x drivers.

Storage controller stuff is complicated. IMHO if backed by solid state device (CF card) it doesn't really matter. Caching makes things slower actually. I don't believe there is a big difference between storage adapters.

13) Best DOS-DOS Games-Win 3.xx sweet spot graphics card, VLB

Diamond Stealth 64 DRAM T (Trio64)

14) Best DOS-DOS Games-Win 3.xx sweet spot graphics card, PCI

Not quite sure. Maybe 3dfx Banshee might have Win. 3.x drivers. I'd say CREATIVE Labs 3D Blaster 3Dfx Voodoo Banshee 16MB PCI 😀

15) Best DOS-DOS Games graphics card, VLB

WD Paradise Bali32 (ARK1000VL) or similar.

16) Best DOS-DOS Games graphics card, PCI.

Not sure. Still would bet on 3dfx banshee.

17) Best Win 3.xx graphics card, VLB

Diamond Stealth 64 Video (S3 968 with VRAM)

18) Best Win 3.xx graphics card, PCI

Perhaps still CREATIVE Labs 3D Blaster 3Dfx Voodoo Banshee

mpe wrote on 2021-11-30, 20:20:

Storage controller stuff is complicated. IMHO if backed by solid state device (CF card) it doesn't really matter. Caching makes […]
Show full quote

Storage controller stuff is complicated. IMHO if backed by solid state device (CF card) it doesn't really matter. Caching makes things slower actually. I don't believe there is a big difference between storage adapters.

13) Best DOS-DOS Games-Win 3.xx sweet spot graphics card, VLB

Diamond Stealth 64 DRAM T (Trio64)

14) Best DOS-DOS Games-Win 3.xx sweet spot graphics card, PCI

Not quite sure. Maybe 3dfx Banshee might have Win. 3.x drivers. I'd say CREATIVE Labs 3D Blaster 3Dfx Voodoo Banshee 16MB PCI 😀

15) Best DOS-DOS Games graphics card, VLB

WD Paradise Bali32 (ARK1000VL) or similar.

16) Best DOS-DOS Games graphics card, PCI.

Not sure. Still would bet on 3dfx banshee.

17) Best Win 3.xx graphics card, VLB

Diamond Stealth 64 Video (S3 968 with VRAM)

18) Best Win 3.xx graphics card, PCI

Perhaps still CREATIVE Labs 3D Blaster 3Dfx Voodoo Banshee

great, thank you!
Yes sure, SD cards ALWAYS 😀 😀 😀