VOGONS


First post, by Sphere478

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Dono if the dvi standard will even support it, but figure this is the place to ask.

Any hope of 4k on radeon 9800 pro?

If so, what about radeon 7500

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Reply 1 of 16, by TrashPanda

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Sphere478 wrote on 2021-12-19, 01:03:

Dono if the dvi standard will even support it, but figure this is the place to ask.

Any hope of 4k on radeon 9800 pro?

If so, what about radeon 7500

It’s not that the gpu core won’t support it but likely the lack of VRAM on older gpus that it the limiting factor. Possibly if you found a 512mb model you might be able to hack a driver to get 4K 30hz but I think dvi stopped at 1080p possibly dvi-d might have gone higher.

The 7500 is very unlikely to support 4K 30hz even if you could hack a driver for it.

Im crazy not stupid, well not stupid enough to make claims that are total nonsense.

Reply 3 of 16, by bloodem

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The maximum resolution (as written on the box of my Radeon 9800 PROs - see attachment) is 2048 x 1536 @ 85 Hz... so pretty far away from 4K 😀
The cards do work great for me at 1920 x 1440 (so the "4:3 version" of 1440p).

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Reply 4 of 16, by darry

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On the analogue (VGA) front :
Integrated RAMDAC is 400MHz on the Radeon 9800 family .
So you could theoretically (maybe) manage to squeeze out 3840x2160@30Hz (maybe even 45Hz) over analogue RGB (VGA) assuming the card/drivers/internal bandwidth of the chip and VRAM are flexible enough to let you do it with something like Powerstrip on the software side . You would still need to find
a) a 4K monitor with an analogue RGB (VGA) input that accepts such a high pixel clock
OR
b) a VGA to HDMI or DP converter that can handle such a pixel clock .
Good luck on both of these (not to mention that running so close to RAMDAC limits, even if it works, could produce a marginal quality output as this chip is specced at 2048x1536 max, officially and pushing more than that was very unlikely to have been tested at the time)

On the digital (DVI) front :
The card/chip is DVI compliant and has an integrated 165MHz TMDS . Using reasonable tight timings, you may get away with 3840x2160@19Hz or maybe a bit more if the card/drivers/internal bandwidth of the chip and VRAM are flexible enough to let you do it with something like Powerstrip on the software side . Officially, 1920x1200@60Hz was pretty much the limit, AFAICR .

In both cases, if you manage to run the RAMDAC or TMDS above its rated max specs and/or if you play with blanking intervals/porches, you might be able to get more, but that is far from guaranteed and you may well hit driver or internal bandwidth limitations well before that .

To get an idea of theoretical RAMDAC and TMDS bandwidth requirements have a look here : https://tomverbeure.github.io/video_timings_calculator

EDIT : the Radeon 7500 has a 350MHz RAMDAC, so even less likely to work . Its TMDS is 165MHz capable .

Reply 6 of 16, by TrashPanda

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Baoran wrote on 2021-12-20, 09:32:

I am just curious. What would be the oldest graphics card that you can actulle get 4k windows desktop out of?

IIRC you need HDMI 2.0 or DP 1.1 which would be around the GTX 600 series for nVidia, Intel HD 630 (There are reports of HD500 series supporting it too but unconfirmed), AMD is a bit vague but the R200 series appear to be the earliest to support 4k30 and have the required ports(Its possible the HD7000 also do as the R200 series is based on them)

If you dont mind shitty refresh rates you could hack the Intel HD 4000 series to display 2160p @ 24hz but it would struggle badly with the data rate and likely be a terrible experience.

Im crazy not stupid, well not stupid enough to make claims that are total nonsense.

Reply 7 of 16, by CwF

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TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-20, 09:48:

IIRC you need HDMI 2.0 or DP 1.1 ...possible the HD7000...

Yes, no chance without correct protocol support.
I recently swapped a dumb 1080 with a dumb 4k tv in a video wall and did limited testing, set it to 1080.
Hot plugged into a DP port on a HD7750 on Debian it mirrored a 1200p without config, I assume at 60Hz. There was a weird snag I don't remember clearly, the input on the monitor needed to be set to one protocol or another and it effects the sound channel. On XP, a Quadro K6 will not drive 4k, I *think* the regular HD7750 drivers won't, a Sky500 (~7870) will with firegl drivers, so hit and miss.

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Reply 8 of 16, by RetroGamer4Ever

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The oldest consumer GPU that you can get basic 4K out of is one that uses DisplayPort and HBR, which allows a single 4K/30fps signal or MST, which combines multiple DVI/DP video output signals to create a single high-resolution video signal on a monitor. MST was commonly used in pro displays, but MST never worked well due to sync issues and was quickly dropped from hardware, when HBR2 came out in the mid-2010's and was used in the first consumer/prosumer 4K monitors.

Reply 9 of 16, by CwF

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RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2021-12-20, 17:48:

DisplayPort and HBR, which allows a single 4K/30fps signal or MST,

? DP1.2 is HDR2 and either are still MST capable... they are not competing things. As for input to an hdmi monitor it's about the hdmi spec; >1.4 and 2.+, I'm not up on the details..
Anyway, feed it 1080, let the monitor scale itself and save the gpu, and all is good.

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Reply 10 of 16, by matze79

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwJyKhUWnX8

How is phil doing this ?

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Reply 11 of 16, by RetroGamer4Ever

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matze79 wrote on 2021-12-21, 00:32:

Per his own comments in the page, Phil recorded a video file and upscaled it to 4K, before uploading it to YouTube. That card definitely can't do 4K.

Reply 12 of 16, by CwF

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matze79 wrote on 2021-12-21, 00:32:

from comments
" PhilsComputerLab
PhilsComputerLab
4 years ago
This demo runs only at 1024x768. "

I used to know what I was doing...

Reply 13 of 16, by matze79

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I think the Max i got is 1600x1200 with Radeon 9000 (Which is basicly rebrand of 8500)

Well i just would go for a Radeon HD AGP and use HDMI Output 😉
My Athlon XP has HD3450 512Mb, its decent enough for 2002/3 Gaming

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Reply 14 of 16, by darry

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CwF wrote on 2021-12-21, 00:44:
from comments " PhilsComputerLab PhilsComputerLab 4 years ago This demo runs only at 1024x768. " […]
Show full quote
matze79 wrote on 2021-12-21, 00:32:

from comments
" PhilsComputerLab
PhilsComputerLab
4 years ago
This demo runs only at 1024x768. "

EDIT: Just saw that he ran it on an 8500, so he must indeed be upscaling. That said, the demo can definitely run in higher resolutions and in 16x9 by adjusting settings below .

He could have edited this file C:\ATI Demos\Nature\sushi.ini

by changing

resolution = 1024x768
renderableTexture = 512x256
fullScreen = T
letterbox = T //Fake widescreen with black bars at top and bottom
wideScreen = F //Set TRUE if running on a true 16:9 widescreen

to

resolution = 3840x2160
renderableTexture = 512x256
fullScreen = T
letterbox = F //Fake widescreen with black bars at top and bottom
wideScreen = T //Set TRUE if running on a true 16:9 widescreen

You can get the demo here : https://www.philscomputerlab.com/ati-radeon-8 … tech-demos.html and do the same .
Most ATI demos allow similar tweaking and at lasr this specific demo runs on non ATI hardware, like my Intel HD4000 in Windows 10 at 1920x1080 .

Last edited by darry on 2021-12-21, 06:26. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 15 of 16, by Baoran

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TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-20, 09:48:
Baoran wrote on 2021-12-20, 09:32:

I am just curious. What would be the oldest graphics card that you can actulle get 4k windows desktop out of?

IIRC you need HDMI 2.0 or DP 1.1 which would be around the GTX 600 series for nVidia, Intel HD 630 (There are reports of HD500 series supporting it too but unconfirmed), AMD is a bit vague but the R200 series appear to be the earliest to support 4k30 and have the required ports(Its possible the HD7000 also do as the R200 series is based on them)

If you dont mind shitty refresh rates you could hack the Intel HD 4000 series to display 2160p @ 24hz but it would struggle badly with the data rate and likely be a terrible experience.

What about Quadro cards? I think they got DP around 2009.

Reply 16 of 16, by TrashPanda

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Baoran wrote on 2021-12-21, 03:57:
TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-20, 09:48:
Baoran wrote on 2021-12-20, 09:32:

I am just curious. What would be the oldest graphics card that you can actulle get 4k windows desktop out of?

IIRC you need HDMI 2.0 or DP 1.1 which would be around the GTX 600 series for nVidia, Intel HD 630 (There are reports of HD500 series supporting it too but unconfirmed), AMD is a bit vague but the R200 series appear to be the earliest to support 4k30 and have the required ports(Its possible the HD7000 also do as the R200 series is based on them)

If you dont mind shitty refresh rates you could hack the Intel HD 4000 series to display 2160p @ 24hz but it would struggle badly with the data rate and likely be a terrible experience.

What about Quadro cards? I think they got DP around 2009.

You can try, which version ? If it’s not 1.1 then it’s unlikely you’ll get 4K 30 but if you are ok with even wise refresh rates then give it a shot.

Im crazy not stupid, well not stupid enough to make claims that are total nonsense.