The Rage series is not recommended for DOS gaming, you will get the scrolling glitch defect in games like Keen Dreams. For 3D gaming Rage Pro and Rage 128 are meh when the driver works, Rage 128 T&L performance can be slower then running T&L off the CPU and as for the Rage II series I would call those 3D decelerators. I owned the Rage IIc AGP and Rage 128 AGP when they were new...I sold them and won't look back. My recommendation for a video card of that gen is to use a Riva TNT2 for best DOS game compatibility and decent 3D gaming in Windows plus they are still dirt cheap to buy, I just paid $3 for one off ebay.

Keen screwups aren't ATI isolated. It wasn't the primary concern of the PC windows 3d boom era to keep compatibility up with old VGA tricks

DonCatoli wrote on 2022-12-08, 00:58:

Rage 128 T&L performance can be slower then running T&L off the CPU

also rage128 doesn't have any HW T&L to speak of

marxveix wrote on 2022-12-07, 22:22:

With Rage3 (8MB) cards it is possbile to get better fps, more like 30-40fps with GLQuake @ 640x480x16 timedemo demo1 without ove […]
Show full quote

W.x. wrote on 2022-08-30, 22:30:

The differance is remarkable. In GLQuake 640x480x16, 4 MB Rage Pro Turbo gets 16.7 fps. But 8MB Rage Pro Turbo gets 21.8 fps. What's going on there? Both versions are same (SGR memory, same Ati-109- code , just one is Ati Xpert@Work (without TV out) and one is Ati Xpert@Play.

With Rage3 (8MB) cards it is possbile to get better fps, more like 30-40fps with GLQuake @ 640x480x16 timedemo demo1 without overlock, use right OpenGL, best at the moment is 1094 or 1068 version for Quake1 and Quake2 1068 or 1076/1077 as i member and i recommend using Rage XL AGP pn 109-66700-01 or 109-66700-00 cards.

Rage3 OpenGL Win9x files for download:
https://www.upload.ee/files/14683268/Rage3-GL_Win9x.zip.html

If anybody has some other Win9x MiniGL/OpenGL versions for Rage3, let me know , Thank you!
ATi RagePro OpenGL files

MiniGL 4.10.1010, 4.10.1021, 4.10.1036

OpenGL 4.11.1051, 4.11.1058, 4.11.1060, 4.11.1065, 4.11.1068, 4.11.1076, 4.11.1077, 4.11.1084, 4.11.1085, 4.11.1091, 4.12.1091, 4.11.1094, 4.12.1094, 4.12.1095, 4.12.1096, 4.12.1103, 4.12.1104, 4.12.1106, 4.12.1107

Thanks for interesting note, but my testing setup is Windows XP (for easier manipulation), so I can test only there right now.
Anyway, always wondered, what's FPS is under windows 98, and I've expected of course more fps. With ATI official drivers. I am using Rage Pro ati official drivers, last version from early 2002 or so, on official page. I admit, some drivers can have better performance for particular game, but latest drivers have usually best compatibility, stability, and overall less issues in games/programs, also less rendering glitches. That's why I wanted to go with latests drivers.

So right now, I cannot test it on windows 98, it would be time consuming. I cannot find time even to compile my results from windows Xp benchmarks, I was making several days. Not to mention, even switch drivers... that would basicaly multiply all time.
But I never liked tactic to use special drivers for special game. I kinda played more games in one era, and also shared computer with brother in that time, he played different games. It would unrealistic to change drivers in that time, everytime I play something. I also didnt want to touch OS too much, as it was unstable... often resulted in crashes, and unstable system, when playing with stuff like that. Now, I dont risk anything, but in that time, it was shared primary computer. If anything screwed up, it was really really bad at home, lots of anger (everyone wanted just sit behind computer that is working, and when we had to reinstall everything, it usually costed like 1-2 hours, it was really really bad. Like really bad. In that time, I just didnt touch anything on OS, only play games.
So... in summary, I see reasonable to only use latest drivers. Not choose drivers for one game, than switch them for another. That was unrealistic scenario for most people to do. And I find it also not properiate for benchmarks. Because, it's not only about Quake (or only one game). Many times, drivers had better FPS in one game, but was unstable or slow, in others. That is, why I dont like tactic to cherry pick drivers for only one benchmark, but rather, find overall best and most stable drivers, and test all games on it.
specificaly Ati was known to do it, that they've sacrificed everything, to get few FPS more in one game, that was benchmarked the most. So they'll get better reviews. (later, when reviews were out, after few months, they released newer version, that was better overall, but had less FPS in that particulary game... because reviews were already out... they basicaly unscrewed the driver for 90% games, back to original state) I've never liked this tactic, and would not use such drivers for wide benchmarks.

DonCatoli wrote on 2022-12-08, 00:58:

The Rage series is not recommended for DOS gaming, you will get the scrolling glitch defect in games like Keen Dreams. For 3D gaming Rage Pro and Rage 128 are meh when the driver works, Rage 128 T&L performance can be slower then running T&L off the CPU and as for the Rage II series I would call those 3D decelerators. I owned the Rage IIc AGP and Rage 128 AGP when they were new...I sold them and won't look back. My recommendation for a video card of that gen is to use a Riva TNT2 for best DOS game compatibility and decent 3D gaming in Windows plus they are still dirt cheap to buy, I just paid $3 for one off ebay.

This K1n9_Duk3 person from the links below seems to have addressed the scrolling issue. You can use ATI cards with better results for DOS gaming with the update utility below for patching problematic games:

https://pckf.com/viewtopic.php?p=96074&hilit=ati#p96074

http://k1n9duk3.shikadi.net/

leileilol wrote on 2022-12-08, 01:26:

Keen screwups aren't ATI isolated. It wasn't the primary concern of the PC windows 3d boom era to keep compatibility up with old VGA tricks

DonCatoli wrote on 2022-12-08, 00:58:

Rage 128 T&L performance can be slower then running T&L off the CPU

also rage128 doesn't have any HW T&L to speak of

brain fart, was thinking of Rage 6.

Meatball wrote on 2022-12-08, 19:19:

This K1n9_Duk3 person from the links below seems to have addressed the scrolling issue. You can use ATI cards with better resul […]
Show full quote

DonCatoli wrote on 2022-12-08, 00:58:

The Rage series is not recommended for DOS gaming, you will get the scrolling glitch defect in games like Keen Dreams. For 3D gaming Rage Pro and Rage 128 are meh when the driver works, Rage 128 T&L performance can be slower then running T&L off the CPU and as for the Rage II series I would call those 3D decelerators. I owned the Rage IIc AGP and Rage 128 AGP when they were new...I sold them and won't look back. My recommendation for a video card of that gen is to use a Riva TNT2 for best DOS game compatibility and decent 3D gaming in Windows plus they are still dirt cheap to buy, I just paid $3 for one off ebay.

This K1n9_Duk3 person from the links below seems to have addressed the scrolling issue. You can use ATI cards with better results for DOS gaming with the update utility below for patching problematic games:

https://pckf.com/viewtopic.php?p=96074&hilit=ati#p96074

http://k1n9duk3.shikadi.net/

Interesting Keen 4-6 are mentioned, I only had the issue with Keen Dreams on ATI cards and that is not listed for this patch from what I have so far read.

DonCatoli wrote on 2022-12-10, 08:12:

Meatball wrote on 2022-12-08, 19:19:

This K1n9_Duk3 person from the links below seems to have addressed the scrolling issue. You can use ATI cards with better resul […]
Show full quote

DonCatoli wrote on 2022-12-08, 00:58:

The Rage series is not recommended for DOS gaming, you will get the scrolling glitch defect in games like Keen Dreams. For 3D gaming Rage Pro and Rage 128 are meh when the driver works, Rage 128 T&L performance can be slower then running T&L off the CPU and as for the Rage II series I would call those 3D decelerators. I owned the Rage IIc AGP and Rage 128 AGP when they were new...I sold them and won't look back. My recommendation for a video card of that gen is to use a Riva TNT2 for best DOS game compatibility and decent 3D gaming in Windows plus they are still dirt cheap to buy, I just paid $3 for one off ebay.

This K1n9_Duk3 person from the links below seems to have addressed the scrolling issue. You can use ATI cards with better results for DOS gaming with the update utility below for patching problematic games:

https://pckf.com/viewtopic.php?p=96074&hilit=ati#p96074

http://k1n9duk3.shikadi.net/

Interesting Keen 4-6 are mentioned, I only had the issue with Keen Dreams on ATI cards and that is not listed for this patch from what I have so far read.

A few days ago, I happened to be deciding whether I’d use a PCI ATI Rage Pro Turbo in a build, and I tested Keen Dreams. The card had 8MB of SGRAM (4 chips). I didn’t have the scrolling issue.

Gona also lists the game as working OK for ATI:

https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

I’m not saying you’re mistaken; only it’s possible for Keen Dreams to work OK on ATI.

Meatball wrote on 2022-12-10, 14:17:

A few days ago, I happened to be deciding whether I’d use a PCI ATI Rage Pro Turbo in a build, and I tested Keen Dreams. The car […]
Show full quote

DonCatoli wrote on 2022-12-10, 08:12:

Meatball wrote on 2022-12-08, 19:19:

This K1n9_Duk3 person from the links below seems to have addressed the scrolling issue. You can use ATI cards with better results for DOS gaming with the update utility below for patching problematic games:

https://pckf.com/viewtopic.php?p=96074&hilit=ati#p96074

http://k1n9duk3.shikadi.net/

Interesting Keen 4-6 are mentioned, I only had the issue with Keen Dreams on ATI cards and that is not listed for this patch from what I have so far read.

A few days ago, I happened to be deciding whether I’d use a PCI ATI Rage Pro Turbo in a build, and I tested Keen Dreams. The card had 8MB of SGRAM (4 chips). I didn’t have the scrolling issue.

Gona also lists the game as working OK for ATI:

https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

I’m not saying you’re mistaken; only it’s possible for Keen Dreams to work OK on ATI.

This seems to be a hit and miss with Keen Dreams, without getting into too much detail when I worked in the IHV sector long ago we troubleshooted this issue and found the Rage series of GPUs ran fine with Keen 4-6 but were very jerky with Keen Dreams however folks were also seeing the opposite [although unlikely it's not completely impossible the variance between early production and sample boards vs later revision production boards come into play here] however I can only report on the findings we found and the resources would not be put into resolving the issue for this because in 1999 DOS was in the rear window however we did not investigate VESA TSRs [maybe they might help?]. Even with the Keen issues out of the way there are other compatibility issues with ATI offerings found here you may want to review https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

Have an ATI Rage PRO Turbo 8mb AGP 2x and IMHO it's an OK card for DOS games (mine does have the scrolling problem with commander Keen, but the vast majority of games have no issues). It's quite capable in games using OpenGL and direct3d once you find the right drivers.
Can get GLQuake to run at 30fps average on a P200mmx, Quake 2 runs at 20, but this is due to CPU bottleneck, both at 640x480.
The special thing about this card is being able to run Tomb Raider 1 at 640x480 using the ATI patch (the ATI Rage PRO is the latest card to support ATI CIF) almost steady 30fps, except in some very specific parts it goes to 20fps. Yeah, the voodoo is better and more supported, but its price is not for everyone.
Other games that run fine with it:
Tomb Raider 2 (Runs better than TR1 in fact)
World Cup 98
Need for Speed 3 (this one benefits from a faster CPU, but playable on the P200)
POD
Forsaken
Outlaws (Direct3d patch)
Also want to try Wipeout and Actua Soccer as both games use the ATI CIF API, but couldn't try them yet.

It's a good card for games between 1993-1997, maybe some from 1998.

I just had the strangest thing happen to my Rage Pro Turbo in the past couple of weeks. I'd installed the 2002 drivers under DirectX 8 like I always have, but when I tried to launch DOS games under Windows that used VESA SVGA moves I'd get a blank screen while the game continued to play in the background (sound and controls worked, allowing me to quit games like Quake). Suspecting that it was some kind of monitor refresh rate snafu, I checked the available refresh rates and found that I couldn't select a refresh rate below 72 Hz at 800x600 or 640x480, which seems to have been causing the problem! Un-installing the ATI driver and using the Standard VGA (ie. no driver selected) led to DOS games working perfectly fine, and using the ATI Rage Pro Turbo driver that came with Windows 98 SE seems to have solved the issue for now. I am very confused that this is the first time I have had this problem in 20 years of using this driver, though!

hello guyz, i necro this post up because i have a few questions on the rage2c cards:
1. has anyone tried getting rage2c run on 486 systems?
2. i can't remember whether rage2c driver had official opengl support(not third party wrapper)?

i also have my opinions on them: rage pro is a decent but imperfect card for its days, its slower than riva128 and i740 but still decent.
rage2c is a final upgrade of the older rage2 core rather than cut down from the rage pro, probably aimed at low end market, although the cards pcb layout seems similar.

Short answer: don't bother with Rage IIC for anything 3D, it's not worth trying, unless you are a masochist.
Longer answer - there's already a thread:
OpenGL on Rage IIc

I would add to that Rage II performance seems quite CPU dependant, so it might be the worst possible choice for something like a 486.

I don't remember the Rage 2C quite late final drivers having any OpenGL support but a good (probably much CPU dependent) Direct3D one being able to render many Directx6 and even later games @ 400x300 15-20 fps like results with a interesting enough correct rendering accuracy for such old accelerator. But it still was a weak slow accelerator and the Rage Pro was indeed a much newer solution (with its problems too) but interesting how much ATi tried so much in those times to get where they arrived with better and better solutions in that fast and difficult market period.

Do you mean drivers above 2692 support dx6 games? I know they REQUIRE DX6 to install...

Tangential question: Can you overclock Rage II by any means whatsoever?

Rage 2, C, +, Pro, Turbo - it was all a scam just like Virge 3D "acceleration". Those companies were learning basics and implementing checklists of features without any consideration for performance.

W.x. wrote on 2022-12-05, 12:54:

Found another one, from october 1997, it is from different magazine, Computer. I was reading it, I have it physically, and didn't expect such cool price listing. So I've copied it from pdf. (it's without tax, which was around 22% at the time, so you need to add +22% to the price, if you are regular customer)

Fantastic price lists, shows just how big of a scam S3 and ATI were running at the time 😀
1997:

so I can buy S3Trio64 + Diamond Monster 3D Voodoo1. 800+5600 = 6400
or riva128 Elsa Victory Erazor 6900. Drivers and rendering quality werent great compared to 3dfx, but speed was.
or I can get scammed by ATI buying Rage 3D Pro Turbo 4MB/Xpert@Work 4MB PCI/AGP/ 8MB PCI/AGP 5000/5600/6100/7300/7800. I mean you cant go wrong with a card called 3D, Pro AND Turbo at the same time!
or I can drink marketing piss from S3 and get STB Nitro 3D/Elsa Winner/STB Velocity 3D/miroCrystal 4000VR 4MB Virge at 3900/5600/5900/7400
btw difference in performance between 3900 Nitro 3D and 5900 Velocity 3D is approximately ZERO https://vintage3d.org/virgedx.php https://retro.swarm.cz/s3-virge-325-vx-dx-gx- … tors-deep-dive/ At least I will feel like a Winner driving my Mitsubishi 3000GT 4000VR Nitro at high Velocity!
Permedia 2 and Verite V1000 delivered speed, but software support wasnt there to even consider.

Only two choices will allow me to play GLQuake >30fps out of the box. Only two will give me working opengl driver.

1998:

One year passed, surely people learned and prices reflect reality, right?
3DExpert XL/ASUS AGP-V264GT3/Xpert@Work 3050/4370/4580 Hard choice between "3D" "Expert" with XL and Asus with GT3 in name, both must be super fast!
Asus 3DP-V375DX 4MB Virge 1700 cant charge 3d accelerator prices for a scam anymore
Riva128 Asus AGP-V3000/Diamond Viper V330/STB Velocity 128 3D 5000/5530/5600
Yakumo 3DFX/Diamond Monster 3D Voodoo1 5000/5700 Monster actually got more expensive because people DID in fact learn what is a truly working 3D accelerator and what is not 😀
Diamond Monster 3D II Voodoo2 8000 noice
Matrox m3D with PCX2 PowerVR 3500 Interesting proposition, worked amazingly in few games (tomb raider), still great in others.

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-04-08, 23:20:

Fantastic price lists, shows just how big of a scam S3 and ATI were running at the time 😀

Yeah, I also provide average month salary in Czech Republic in 1998, so you can calculate, how much money demanding those prices were.
https://www.finance.cz/zpravy/finance/7910-vy … dy-v-roce-1998/
It was around 12000 CZK (KČ) monthly. But in villages (up to 5000 population), it's much less than in Prague (hl.m Praha in graph), as you can see in graph.
It was before taxation, so Gross income. Net income was much lower, only tax was around 22%.
So as you can see, for voodoo2, at 8000CZK without tax (9760 CZK with tax - marked as DPH in czech language), you needed actually more than whole 1-month salary. In villages, it was even worse, they were often left with 6000 CZK or less after taxes.
So, quite expensive card, at the time of introduction. Particulary, if you've needed to buy also 2D VGA adapter.

just checked Poland average salary for 1998 - 1239,49/m https://www.zus.pl/en/baza-wiedzy/skladki-wsk … dzenie-w-latach
usb 1:3.45 https://www.finanse.egospodarka.pl/kursy-walu … /USD/1998-10-21
$360 before taxes. I remember bigger components like GPUs or big hard drives being monthly wage around 2000.

I found some graphic card prices from Poland 1997

miroVideo 3d (some sort of Virge) 295 ~= $85
S3 Trio64V+ 120 ~= $35
ET6000 420 ~= $120

Monster 3D 730 ~= $215 https://archive.org/details/secretservicemaga … 22monster+3d%22
Righteous 3D 830 ~= $245 https://archive.org/details/secretservicemaga … 22monster+3d%22

Whole computers October 1998 https://mmgik.org/images/scan/ks/7.pdf https://mmgik.org/images/scan/ks/6.pdf ~$1.4K with taxes for P200-233/celeron 300/P2 266, 16-32MB ram, 1.5-3GB hdd, 15' CRT, from S3Trio to Voodoo Rush. If you didnt know any better you got random graphic card while paying same money, all depending on luck 😀

and nvidia wasnt sitting still, in September 1998 TNT came out and everything older got $100 cheaper all of a sudden:
Diamond Viper V550 16MB $200 September 1998 https://www.anandtech.com/show/195/5
Creative Labs Graphics Blaster TNT 16MB $169 September 1998, $125 November 1998 https://www.anandtech.com/show/182/5
MATROX G100 8MB $99 April 1998
optional DVD Upgrade Module (Hardware MPEG2 decoder) for G100/G200 $79 April 1998
MATROX MILLENNIUM G200 8MB $230 August 1998 https://assets.hardwarezone.com/2009/reviews/ … /g200/g200.html
STB Velocity 128 4MB $129 June 1998
Creative Labs 3D Blaster VooDoo2 8MB $229 June 1998 and dropping fast after TNT release
Diamond Monster 3D II 8MB $249 June 1998 and dropping fast after TNT release

I cant imagine anyone sane consciously overpaying for "high end" ATI Rage model when 3dfx was available on the market.

If you dial your Delorean for December 1997, you could buy... https://web.archive.org/web/19971210211328/ht … bcatg/video.htm or maybe you wanna go to this place in 1998? https://web.archive.org/web/19981205233151/ht … accelerator.htm

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-04-08, 23:20:

Only two choices will allow me to play GLQuake >30fps out of the box. Only two will give me working opengl driver.

Voodoo Graphics isn't that fast. And eventually you get a driver making Rage Pro faster in the game.
And we should remember people use graphics cards for more than 3d games.

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-04-08, 23:20:

Permedia 2 and Verite V1000 delivered speed, but software support wasnt there to even consider.

That does not even make sense.