VOGONS


What is a 3D accelerator?

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Reply 20 of 92, by Joakim

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Usefulness of voodoo cards are over rated esp in relation to the price.. It is really very short period between ca 1996-2000 ish they are king.

I don't know the game you are referring to but if it is d3d maybe you are just having a drivers problem or direct X.

Reply 22 of 92, by cyclone3d

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I've actually been seeing GeForce 256 DDR cards on eBay for not that much... As in $50 or less.

It also helps to search for other terms than just exactly what you are looking for.

You could also look for one of the PCI Quadro cards that are GeForce 2, 3, or 4 based. Those usually go for fairly cheap just because they aren't sought after as much as the regular GeForce cards.

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Reply 23 of 92, by leileilol

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If you do go the Voodoo1/2 route, keep in mind that Kao won't detect the card by default as they're secondary video devices. 2000 was also a turning point of disregard for supporting secondary 3d, as all the mainstream 3d accelerated video cards in use were primary, and driver updates for both ended in mid 1999 and early 2000 respectively.

V2's expensive because it's a cherished cult classic (it was the fastest 3d accelerator for most of 1998), many believe in having two of them (Voodoo2 SLI) is a status symbol of ultimate "retro coolness" especially after 201X influencers. but it is NOT a necessity and has weird quirks and big design drawbacks of its own that's usually never admitted. also forsaken's a crap benchmark

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Reply 24 of 92, by rasz_pl

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koleq wrote on 2022-04-05, 14:22:
Kao the kangaroo? or Tomb Raider 4? .... I actually remembered that I do have another PC: […]
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Kao the kangaroo? or Tomb Raider 4?
....
I actually remembered that I do have another PC:

CPU: AMD Sempron 1.8Ghz
RAM: 512 MB (I keep 512 so I don't have to bother with Windows 98 RAM limit)
GPU: Nvidia GeForce FX 5200 128 MB

2003-2005 extreme low-end computer, Now this is a good platform for 2000 period games, much closer than 1995 high-end of Pentium 133/S3 Trio 64.

Reply 25 of 92, by firage

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Joakim wrote on 2022-04-05, 19:18:

Usefulness of voodoo cards are over rated esp in relation to the price.. It is really very short period between ca 1996-2000 ish they are king.

It is a period of just a few years, but 1996-2000 is the entire Win9x era in essence. 😀

3dfx is never overrated for hardware targeting 1996-1998 3D games. There its place is well deserved in my opinion, though the prices are unfortunate.

Last edited by firage on 2022-04-06, 13:24. Edited 1 time in total.

My big-red-switch 486

Reply 26 of 92, by Cuttoon

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didn't read through all the comments here, but in general: If you got that low priced Voodoo2, perfect.
Also, many voodoos, though expensive, may still be the best value in the PCI segment.

Many others around, but none of them packed to much punch, compatibility or image quality.
Still not all too rare, in my not-so-up-to-date experience:
Matrox Mystique
-ATI 3d rage
-S3 Virge
-Maybe earlier nvidia like Riva 128, if you find a PCI one

If not period correct, there are much more recent PCI cards like Nvidia up to Geforce 6 (or even 7, I've heard) - depends on the driver issues and what you want to play with those.

But, apart from ISA sound for DOS, this may just be the mother of all rabbit holes.
It gets much easier and more affordable once you hit AGP territory, but none less complicated...

I like jumpers.

Reply 27 of 92, by LightStruk

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Cuttoon wrote on 2022-04-06, 13:21:
Still not all too rare, in my not-so-up-to-date experience: Matrox Mystique -ATI 3d rage -S3 Virge -Maybe earlier nvidia like Ri […]
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Still not all too rare, in my not-so-up-to-date experience:
Matrox Mystique
-ATI 3d rage
-S3 Virge
-Maybe earlier nvidia like Riva 128, if you find a PCI one

There's a reason why the Rage 3D, S3 Virge, and Matrox Mystique are not rare or desirable - they are 3d decelerators most of the time. They aren't bad 2d cards, so they still have value in a DOS gaming rig.

At the risk of starting an argument, if you are considering a card from ATI, S3, or Matrox, the first ones worth having are:

  • ATI Rage 128
  • S3 Savage 4
  • Matrox G400

Contemporary Nvidia cards like the TNT2 are still better, but the Rage 128 in particular isn't a waste. I have a Savage 4-derived GPU in an embedded board and the drivers are... disappointing.

There's a theme here - all three of those cards came out around 1999, because it took until then for anyone other than Nvidia to release a compelling chip to compete with 3dfx's offerings. Also by then, proprietary 3D APIs were obsolete, with Direct 3D and OpenGL dominating, avoiding vendor lock-in.

Reply 28 of 92, by koleq

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it's funny to me the term 3D accelerator and Graphics are two different things,
I am so used to that all Graphics cards go either into the AGP or PCI-Express slot.
But I need to Find a Graphics Accelerator that goes into the Vanila PCI slot and is decently fast,
but all of them are really slow or really expensive online.

As I said here before I think I will keep my Pentium 1 system without a 3D accelerator and play DOS/Windows 9x games that don't need one.
And for games that need one I will spin up my machine that has an AMD Sempron and Nvidia Geforce FX 5200
There is probably no reason for me to get a 3D accelerator that is not a Voodoo and those are Unoptanium.

###HP Vectra VL 5/133 Series 4, D4644B###
CPU: Pentium 1 133Mhz
RAM: 96 MB EDO RAM (4x8MB, 2x32MB)
GPU: ELSA Victory 3DX (S3 Virge/DX 4MB)
Sound: Avance Logic ALS100 Plus+ REV 2.0
HDD: Seagate 20 GB (need to boot OnTrack)
OS: Windows 98 SE

Reply 29 of 92, by Cuttoon

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As LightStruk pointed out once more, those more numerous, non-Voodoo 3D cards of 1996/7 - like 3D rage, Virge or Mystique are not much of an accelerator to speak of.

So if it's about the history, Voodoo is the way to go and everything else is more of an curiosity.
Something to try out things on this list:
3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)

But for PCI per se, Voodoos are more of a trophy item.
Exactly that Geforce FX5200 is rather abundant in PCI, many made by Zotac, and should do pretty much any early Windows 3D game you throw at it.

I like jumpers.

Reply 30 of 92, by Meatball

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Get a Rage LT Pro or a Rage XL, though I lean toward the Rage LT Pro (I have to test further, but the dithering on the XL is borderline obnoxious when playing in 16bit - maybe it's just the setup I had it in). The Rage LT Pro and Rage XL cards are dirt cheap still. I have tested the crap out of the Rage LT Pro the past few weeks and it does very well. Yeah, it has an inability to filter alpha channel textures, but you'll appreciate the old-timey feel with the machine you're running. Of course, I tested it with a 2GHz Pentium, and it did very well with many games into early 2000. With your 133MHz non-mmx Pentium, you won't get the same results, but you're not going to be playing those games anyway. Plus, you get the bonus of ATI CIF games like Turok, Mechwarrior 2, and Assault Rigs, Tomb Raider, etc.

https://gona.mactar.hu/3D/
(Similar information as link from Cuttoon, but this one is grid formatted).

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Reply 31 of 92, by leileilol

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an LCD monitor was also mentioned in another thread, and Voodoo cards don't look too good on them with the more realized signal interference, or have other weird problems (like Commander Keen 4 turning yellow on V3)

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long live PCem

Reply 32 of 92, by koleq

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So S3 Virge PCI and ATI 3D Rage 2c PCI wouldn't make my pc much faster, would it?

I read the Rage 2c supports DirectX 5 but I probably would like something even faster than that.

I think what I want might not be possible in a PCI graphics card. That is Direct X 7.

###HP Vectra VL 5/133 Series 4, D4644B###
CPU: Pentium 1 133Mhz
RAM: 96 MB EDO RAM (4x8MB, 2x32MB)
GPU: ELSA Victory 3DX (S3 Virge/DX 4MB)
Sound: Avance Logic ALS100 Plus+ REV 2.0
HDD: Seagate 20 GB (need to boot OnTrack)
OS: Windows 98 SE

Reply 33 of 92, by rasz_pl

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virge is a decelerator, most "3d" chips were until Voodoo1
DirectX 7 is once again a late 1999 thing, so no to Pentium 133. Even DirectX 6 (TNT2) is already too modern for Pentium 1, unless its 3dfx Voodoo2/Voodoo Banshee, but those are >$100. Maybe something like Matrox Millennium G200 PCI (max $50) would be suitable? You could even pick up G450 PCI as they seem to sell in same price range of $40-50 max. But definitely not Matrox Mistake.

Last edited by rasz_pl on 2022-04-07, 05:58. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 34 of 92, by leileilol

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koleq wrote on 2022-04-07, 05:28:

I think what I want might not be possible in a PCI graphics card. That is Direct X 7.

Plenty of DX7 PCI cards abound: Geforce2/4 MX

Though, DX7 games would be out of class for a P133 rig.

And then there's driver support for just a backend (like Voodoo2/3's "DX7 driver") being different from having DX7 capabilities (compressed textures, HWT&L, cubemapping)

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long live PCem

Reply 35 of 92, by koleq

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Would the ATI Rage 2c be better than my S3 Trio 64?

###HP Vectra VL 5/133 Series 4, D4644B###
CPU: Pentium 1 133Mhz
RAM: 96 MB EDO RAM (4x8MB, 2x32MB)
GPU: ELSA Victory 3DX (S3 Virge/DX 4MB)
Sound: Avance Logic ALS100 Plus+ REV 2.0
HDD: Seagate 20 GB (need to boot OnTrack)
OS: Windows 98 SE

Reply 36 of 92, by darry

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koleq wrote on 2022-04-07, 05:46:

Would the ATI Rage 2c be better than my S3 Trio 64?

The Rage IIC has 3D acceleration functionality ( nothing to write home about --> https://vintage3d.org/rage2.php#sthash.EjpAqnH2.dpbs ) the Trio 64 does not .

Reply 37 of 92, by rasz_pl

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koleq wrote on 2022-04-07, 05:46:

Would the ATI Rage 2c be better than my S3 Trio 64?

no https://vintage3d.org/rage2.php
EVERYTHING on the market up to ~1997 except for 3dfx was a Placebo 3d accelerator. Then you have Nvidia Riva 128 and Rage Pro almost reaching Voodoo1 speed but bad quality. Then in 1998 ATI Rage 128, Matrox G200, TNT (no PCI versions), Voodoo2 and Banshee.

Here have a contemporary review of 3D product from 1997 https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/3d-accel … reviews,42.html (ATI tested there is a later Rage PRO). They didnt even know how to benchmark 3D at the time 😀 so its useless for judging anything other than reading about bad drivers, visual glitches and quirks.

Reply 38 of 92, by Putas

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koleq wrote on 2022-04-07, 05:46:

Would the ATI Rage 2c be better than my S3 Trio 64?

For direct3d games mostly yes. Even first Virge can provide substantial improvements over software renderers.
When people call these cards decelerators it is because they do not reach comfortable framerates. But they can still do much better than CPUs of that period alone.

Reply 39 of 92, by rasz_pl

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Putas wrote on 2022-04-07, 06:39:

For direct3d games mostly yes. Even first Virge can provide substantial improvements over software renderers.
When people call these cards decelerators it is because they do not reach comfortable framerates. But they can still do much better than CPUs of that period alone.

do they? For Virge break even was around 120-133MHz, at that point playing 320x200 software rendering was faster than "accelerated" mode on Virge.

Last edited by Stiletto on 2022-04-07, 22:37. Edited 1 time in total.