VOGONS


First post, by foxbat

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I have two PCI graphic cards:
- S3 Trio64V+ installed DRAM modules are two HM514265CJ7 https://datasheet.datasheetarchive.com/origin … /DSA-332346.pdf
- Cirrus Logic GD5446-HC-A installed DRAM modules are two V53C16258HK60 https://datasheet.datasheetarchive.com/origin … /DSAP002072.pdf

Both of them have only 1MB of DRAM in two modules and two additional sockets for upgrade:

IMG-20220922-005114-MP.jpg

I found offer with following SOJ40 modules that, at least for me, looks like ones that should work: IC41C16257-35K https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/v … C16257-35K.html

The only difference I found is timing which for those modules I wish to purchase is even lower then theoretically should not be the case. Could you take a look at those to verify my findings when you have much more experience in the area that I have.

Reply 1 of 17, by pentiumspeed

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Both takes EDO chips. 256K x 16 bit EDO SOJ 40 pin IC. Order 4 or 6 just in case from seller and keep spares. Do not order from any chinese sellers, these are fakes.

Cheers,

Great Northern aka Canada.

Reply 2 of 17, by Sphere478

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Might be able to find some 72 pin simms with those chips on it.

Sphere's PCB projects.
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Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
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SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
-
Tyan S1564S to S1564D single to dual processor conversion (also s1563 and s1562)

Reply 3 of 17, by TrashPanda

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pentiumspeed wrote on 2022-09-21, 23:26:

Both takes EDO chips. 256K x 16 bit EDO SOJ 40 pin IC. Order 4 or 6 just in case from seller and keep spares. Do not order from any chinese sellers, these are fakes.

Cheers,

Not all are fakes, there are some legit seller in China, easiest way to tell is to check their feedback and ratings.

Its the same for sellers of CPUs from China, I have one I use a lot and they have never not once sold me a fake CPU.

Reply 4 of 17, by clb

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I have that S3 Trio 64V+ as well, without the extra memory, and been wondering what I'd gain in practice by upgrading.

I was calculating this with the following estimates:

Modes that work even without upgrade:
- 640*480*24bpp = 921600 B
- 800*600*16bpp = 960000 B

Modes that would work with upgrade:
- 640*480*32bpp = 1228800 B
- 800*600*24bpp = 1440000 B
- 800*600*32bpp = 1920000 B
- 1024*768*16bpp = 1572864 B

Modes that wouldn't fit even with 1MB -> 2MB upgrade:
- 1024*768*24bpp = 2359296 B
- 1280*1024*16bpp = 2621440 B

(did VESA spec both 24bpp and 32bpp variants of video modes?)

So basically 1MB -> 2MB upgrade would gain 800x600@16Mil. colors and 1024x768@65536 colors? Anything I missed?

Reply 5 of 17, by foxbat

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In general this is interesting case bacause this document: http://www.bitsavers.org/components/s3/DB018- … rator_Jul95.pdf on page 58 (7-1) states that 4MB configuration is supported on Trio64V+. The only condition here is that this is supported for PCI when VLB is capable for 2MB only. In my experience with those cards from 90s to the present is that I have never seen any Trio64 PCI card with more than 2MB of DRAM.

Reply 7 of 17, by Sphere478

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Can it be upgraded to 3 or 5mb?

Sphere's PCB projects.
-
Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
-
SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
-
Tyan S1564S to S1564D single to dual processor conversion (also s1563 and s1562)

Reply 8 of 17, by pentiumspeed

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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-09-22, 05:56:
pentiumspeed wrote on 2022-09-21, 23:26:

Both takes EDO chips. 256K x 16 bit EDO SOJ 40 pin IC. Order 4 or 6 just in case from seller and keep spares. Do not order from any chinese sellers, these are fakes.

Cheers,

Not all are fakes, there are some legit seller in China, easiest way to tell is to check their feedback and ratings.

Its the same for sellers of CPUs from China, I have one I use a lot and they have never not once sold me a fake CPU.

Not always, I had seen many auctions for processors are ES which is engineering samples.

I had shopped enough to know individual components like amplifier IC including 5 pin fast sweep, individual memory chips etc are too commonly fakes from chinese sellers.
The leads snaps off just bending once, just little, trouble soldering or not solderable etc, marginal dies that does not meet original specs.
For multiple memory modules, chinese also duplicated the serial and SPD data across many modules remarked as micron stickers even IC is correct, and I bought 5 or 6 four memory modules from separate chinese sellers.

Trust me on this and when discovered, many wanted back and shipping back from Canada is expensive made me very reluctant to buy again from chinese sellers.
Also I purchased a CPAP blower fan Ebmpapst 939-3020-003 from aliexpress and received generic blower. My intended use is not for CPAP. But imagine if the another guy see this too and purchased it on faith to fix their dying Ebmpapst blower in their CPAP machine? The auction page does not say anywhere in there about substituting a item in question nor advising suitable substitution.

Cheers,

Great Northern aka Canada.

Reply 9 of 17, by pico1180

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I've done this recently with apparent success. All I did was search eBay for like modules that were already on the board. For instance, V53C16258HK60. Then bought the appropriate amount. boom done. worked 2 out of 2 times. I do notice ebay has quite a few options for V53C16258HK but with various timings. Theoretically I dont think lower times would hurt, but ideally I would want a perfect match. If I had to choose same or lower times, I would choose same timings every day.

Reply 10 of 17, by Sphere478

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Yeah not much point in having a mismatched set. The highest will still hold you back. You could upgrade the soldered on ones I suppose though.

But then you have to figure out how to overclock it to realize any benefit. Can it even be overclocked?

Meh, basic no frills video card just give it whatever it already has 🤣.

I still wanna know if it can accept higher capacity chips than what it has soldered?

Sphere's PCB projects.
-
Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
-
SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
-
Tyan S1564S to S1564D single to dual processor conversion (also s1563 and s1562)

Reply 11 of 17, by foxbat

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I've got my order with set of 6 DRAM modules, about $10 for the entire set:

IMG-20220923-190955-MP.jpg

and upgraded both cards:

IMG-20220924-184606-MP.jpg

I'm now able to get 800x600x32 then 1,9MB that proves that the modules are not fakes. Unfortunately CirrusLogic card starts showing little artefacts in some areas of the screen like single wrong colour pixels on edges or fonts of descriptions under icons in Windows. Need to check other modules but it will be difficult when it is not easy to remove module from the socket ...

Anyway, any resolution over 800x600 provides quite low screen quality. This reminds me same problem that I had with S3 Trio3D, looks like same chipset with same limitations. Then in my opinion if you have any 1MB card and wish to upgrade it to 2MB to get higher resolution/color depth you should get card like S3 ViRGE which will give you proper screen quality on those resolutions.

Reply 12 of 17, by Sphere478

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Paperclip maybe bent at ends?

I think for further testing it may be possible to only partially insert them.

If you are getting artifacts though, maybe loose connection?

Sphere's PCB projects.
-
Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
-
SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
-
Tyan S1564S to S1564D single to dual processor conversion (also s1563 and s1562)

Reply 13 of 17, by foxbat

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yeah, thanks for advices, this did the job:

IMG-20220925-005751-MP.jpg

and card still works after two times. Anyway it is still risky when you must put quite large force to take the module out. I did tests with putting modules in about half the socket depth. No success. When removed them and backed to default 1MB config artefacts gone and screen is clear again. Looks like those modules are incompatible with CirrusLogic card or its built-in modules.

Then I have put all 4 remaining modules, those that I used with CirrusLogic, and put them into S3 ViRGE card:

IMG-20220925-012817-MP.jpg

after system boot card reported 4MB, no artefacts so far. But this is the oldest S3 ViRGE/325 and it can't get any better resolutions that take more than 2MB of DRAM.

Reply 14 of 17, by Sphere478

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Nice! Maybe see if you can track down the same
Pm that is on the card?

Also
Check google images for alternate part numbers.

Sphere's PCB projects.
-
Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
-
SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
-
Tyan S1564S to S1564D single to dual processor conversion (also s1563 and s1562)

Reply 15 of 17, by Robx66

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Hi, anyone knows if there is any way of testing or checking those kind of chips by multimeter ot oscilloscope maybe while they are soldered or fittet in socket ? I've got a card with those chips but instead of desoldering all the chips and fitting new ones would be great to be able to check which chip is actually bad before attempting soldering or removing them and swapping the whole lot of chips. Knowing which one causing artifacting for example would be great.
Thanks

Save vintage / retro computers from ending up in the bin. Keep them in working condition. It's a great history !

Reply 16 of 17, by pentiumspeed

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foxbat wrote on 2022-09-24, 17:31:
I've got my order with set of 6 DRAM modules, about $10 for the entire set: […]
Show full quote

I've got my order with set of 6 DRAM modules, about $10 for the entire set:

IMG-20220923-190955-MP.jpg

and upgraded both cards:

IMG-20220924-184606-MP.jpg

I'm now able to get 800x600x32 then 1,9MB that proves that the modules are not fakes. Unfortunately CirrusLogic card starts showing little artefacts in some areas of the screen like single wrong colour pixels on edges or fonts of descriptions under icons in Windows. Need to check other modules but it will be difficult when it is not easy to remove module from the socket ...

Anyway, any resolution over 800x600 provides quite low screen quality. This reminds me same problem that I had with S3 Trio3D, looks like same chipset with same limitations. Then in my opinion if you have any 1MB card and wish to upgrade it to 2MB to get higher resolution/color depth you should get card like S3 ViRGE which will give you proper screen quality on those resolutions.

Where were this chips bought from? These issues is consistent with parts sold from within chinese and Kong Hong sources are fakes.

Cheers,

Great Northern aka Canada.

Reply 17 of 17, by The Serpent Rider

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If they work on one card without issues, then it's just low-quality chips, which possibly can't handle higher operating frequency on another card. Certainly not 35ns grade, as you might think just by looking at "35K". Most S3 cards manufacturers were playing it "safe" and cards were underclocked, to work with any garbage bin RAM inserted.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.