Garrett W wrote on 2023-05-31, 21:32:

I do not have personal experience with 8MB V2 cards, but considering that the 12MB version already struggles with textures in some games even from 1998 (Unreal shows off texture thrashing) and it struggles even worse in SLI at 1024x768, I'd urge you to rethink your approach.

Miro were among the better manufacturers around, they even made "special" 3Dfx cards (their Voodoo 1 with 6MB was somewhat legendary).

Thanks for the info. The final decision has not been made yet. At first I need to get the p3 800mhz system in my hands (it will happen next week, june 10th) and then I need to test the functionality. Only when everything works as it should I will purchase the cards.

Both options are still potentially interesting. A Voodoo 2 Sli set for glide gaming only and a better direct 3d card like the geforce mx440 does not sound like a bad solution.

If the price is concerned a decent Voodoo 2 2000 agp card would also be attrative. There is not doubt about it. I am quite confident that for 97 and 98 glide games the Voodoo 3 would be very good gaming partner.

The only grey horse in that regard is the year 1999. There are opinions out there that the Voodoo 3 can strangle with same games from that year especially some direct 3d games. In that regard The SLi System would be the better option because the geforce mx440 would run everyting from 99 just fine.

I need to look into that matter more closely before making my final decision. Need to find out how many games are there really out there that do not run that well on the Voodoo 3 and if I even care about these games. If I do not care about these games this con of the Voodoo 3 would be irrelevant .

Unreal (and games using its engine) has the tendency to constantly upload textures on the fly for several effects which is inefficient on early hardware 3D accelerators. Although it isn't a completely smooth experience (let alone 60+ fps, something barely achievable on authentic period correct computers), it is playable.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-06-01, 12:50:

Unreal (and games using its engine) has the tendency to constantly upload textures on the fly for several effects which is inefficient on early hardware 3D accelerators. Although it isn't a completely smooth experience (let alone 60+ fps, something barely achievable on authentic period correct computers), it is playable.

I've gotten 60+ FPS in Unreal, Unreal Tournament and Deus Ex on my Voodoo 3 2000. However, only in 640x480 and 800x600. Upping the resolution any higher causes the FPS to tank on that particular card.

These games are also very hungry for CPU speed, especially Deus Ex. I played them on an AthlonXP 1700+ and got the aforementioned results in most areas, save for Liberty Island in Deus Ex, which is the most demanding map in the game. On slower CPUs, it might be more difficult to hit the 60 FPS mark.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-06-01, 13:01:

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-06-01, 12:50:

Unreal (and games using its engine) has the tendency to constantly upload textures on the fly for several effects which is inefficient on early hardware 3D accelerators. Although it isn't a completely smooth experience (let alone 60+ fps, something barely achievable on authentic period correct computers), it is playable.

I've gotten 60+ FPS in Unreal, Unreal Tournament and Deus Ex on my Voodoo 3 2000. However, only in 640x480 and 800x600. Upping the resolution any higher causes the FPS to tank on that particular card.

These games are also very hungry for CPU speed, especially Deus Ex. I played them on an AthlonXP 1700+ and got the aforementioned results in most areas, save for Liberty Island in Deus Ex, which is the most demanding map in the game. On slower CPUs, it might be more challenging to hit that mark.

True, that engine is CPU bound as well.

The K6-2+/450 in Unreal with a single Voodoo2 12 MB struggled in 800x600, but on a PIII-750 with the same card it performed overall better with much less hiccups.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-06-01, 12:50:

Unreal (and games using its engine) has the tendency to constantly upload textures on the fly for several effects which is inefficient on early hardware 3D accelerators. Although it isn't a completely smooth experience (let alone 60+ fps, something barely achievable on authentic period correct computers), it is playable.

That's good to know becuse there some Unreal Engine games on my to play list. I want to play Unreal, UT, Klingon Honor Guard and Deus Ex on my upcoming rig.

Cpu wise I should be ok with P3 800 MHZ for that era I guess.???

Have not seen the mainboard yet so I cannot confirm it but the owner also says that it is possible to put 1GHZ P3 in the motherboard.

Not sure if is worth to upgrade but at least it would be possible to change the p3 800 mhz to more powerful p3 1ghz cpu.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-06-01, 15:03:

That's good to know becuse there some Unreal Engine games on my to play list. I want to play Unreal, UT, Klingon Honor Guard and […]
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That's good to know becuse there some Unreal Engine games on my to play list. I want to play Unreal, UT, Klingon Honor Guard and Deus Ex on my upcoming rig.

Cpu wise I should be ok with P3 800 MHZ for that era I guess.???

Have not seen the mainboard yet so I cannot confirm it but the owner also says that it is possible to put 1GHZ P3 in the motherboard.

Not sure if is worth to upgrade but at least it would be possible to change the p3 800 mhz to more powerful p3 1ghz cpu.

Pointless in my opinion. I've compared 650MHz P3 to a 1000MHz model with Voodoo3 3000 using UTBench for Unreal Tournament and FPS went from ~32 to ~40 @800x600 if I recall correctly.

As for are you ok with 800MHz is up to you, it's a period correct CPU so are you ok with period correct <60 fps.

People always forget that we were on CRTs and didn't care about vsync or hitting 60fps. 60fps standard became more of a thing with flat panel monitors which aren't even retro, but just old.

ptr1ck wrote on 2023-06-01, 17:37:

People always forget that we were on CRTs and didn't care about vsync or hitting 60fps. 60fps standard became more of a thing with flat panel monitors which aren't even retro, but just old.

This is true, the commonly used refresh rate on CRT monitors at the time was 85 Hz. On my AthlonXP 1700+ I can almost reach that in Unreal Tournament at 640x480 with a Voodoo 3 2000.

That said, back in the day, we were usually happy with 25+ FPS and pretty much everyone played with V-Sync off. However, mouse movement feels much more responsive with 60+ FPS, at least to me.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-06-01, 15:30:

retep_110 wrote on 2023-06-01, 15:03:

That's good to know becuse there some Unreal Engine games on my to play list. I want to play Unreal, UT, Klingon Honor Guard and […]
Show full quote

That's good to know becuse there some Unreal Engine games on my to play list. I want to play Unreal, UT, Klingon Honor Guard and Deus Ex on my upcoming rig.

Cpu wise I should be ok with P3 800 MHZ for that era I guess.???

Have not seen the mainboard yet so I cannot confirm it but the owner also says that it is possible to put 1GHZ P3 in the motherboard.

Not sure if is worth to upgrade but at least it would be possible to change the p3 800 mhz to more powerful p3 1ghz cpu.

Pointless in my opinion. I've compared 650MHz P3 to a 1000MHz model with Voodoo3 3000 using UTBench for Unreal Tournament and FPS went from ~32 to ~40 @800x600 if I recall correctly.

As for are you ok with 800MHz is up to you, it's a period correct CPU so are you ok with period correct <60 fps.

Let's just say that's my first build and I want to do things the easy way that's why I want to resort to complete system. I can get this p800 system for almost nothing so I think it's good starting point for contemporary voodoo machine.

If some of the parts are not working I need to improvise anyway with another new motherboard. But I hope the system will be still functional and I just need to buy the video cards and the soundcard.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-06-01, 18:00:

However, mouse movement feels much more responsive with 60+ FPS, at least to me.

Absolutely. Except when you use a PS/2 mouse, then you're screwed regardless 😁

That was actually one of the biggest surprises I ran into when I built my P3 machine, I'm not the biggest fps snob on the planet but laggy mouse bothers me kind of a lot.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-06-01, 18:44:

Let's just say that's my first build and I want to do things the easy way that's why I want to resort to complete system. I can get this p800 system for almost nothing so I think it's good starting point for contemporary voodoo machine.

If some of the parts are not working I need to improvise anyway with another new motherboard. But I hope the system will be still functional and I just need to buy the video cards and the soundcard.

I think this is the best way to start, keeping things simple and cheap (though voodoos don't really fit in with the cheap part)

Figure out what you like and want, then start throwing more money for specific stuff.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-06-01, 19:18:

Absolutely. Except when you use a PS/2 mouse, then you're screwed regardless 😁 […]
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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-06-01, 18:00:

However, mouse movement feels much more responsive with 60+ FPS, at least to me.

Absolutely. Except when you use a PS/2 mouse, then you're screwed regardless 😁

That was actually one of the biggest surprises I ran into when I built my P3 machine, I'm not the biggest fps snob on the planet but laggy mouse bothers me kind of a lot.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-06-01, 18:44:

Let's just say that's my first build and I want to do things the easy way that's why I want to resort to complete system. I can get this p800 system for almost nothing so I think it's good starting point for contemporary voodoo machine.

If some of the parts are not working I need to improvise anyway with another new motherboard. But I hope the system will be still functional and I just need to buy the video cards and the soundcard.

I think this is the best way to start, keeping things simple and cheap (though voodoos don't really fit in with the cheap part)

Figure out what you like and want, then start throwing more money for specific stuff.

I am fully aware that the voodoo cards do not suit the keep it simple and cheap for the first build rule but what shall I say having a Voodoo system is one of my unfulfilled childhood/early teen dream I want to make a reality now.

But with the other parts I want to keep it as cheap and simple as possible. That's reason why I am hoping to get a already fully functional system in my hands .

For an inexperienced user like myself that's the ultimate way to go. For a noob finding the right motherboard with the right chipset that works with every potential graphics cards configuration can be quite scary.

It also interesting at the same time to find the right parts at the same time. But due to money constraints I want to keep stuff as straightforward as possible and just resort to parts that are known to work.

A socket 370 p3 1000 mhz sounds like the perfect partner for Voodoo 2 SLI or single Voodoo 3 card. That's why I am glad that I have the chance to get such a system.

@all Got another question. It is more like a just in case question because the chances that it will really happen is rather slim.

In case I can find a Voodoo 4 or Voodoo 5 card that is priced way lower than normal would be worth considering instead of a Voodoo 2 or Voodoo 3?

In theory the answer would be simple yes because 4 and 5 are more powerful but maybe there are some issues I am not aware of.

That's a highly academic question and I know I am already lucky if I can find a voodoo 2 or voodoo 3 in the 100 to 200 euro range (about 200 plus shipping is the highest amount I am willing to spend) . But you never now what chances might come up...

Sombrero wrote on 2023-06-01, 19:18:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-06-01, 18:00:

However, mouse movement feels much more responsive with 60+ FPS, at least to me.

Absolutely. Except when you use a PS/2 mouse, then you're screwed regardless 😁

That was actually one of the biggest surprises I ran into when I built my P3 machine, I'm not the biggest fps snob on the planet but laggy mouse bothers me kind of a lot.

PS/2 can sample the mouse at up to 200Hz, which is plenty. You just have to adjust the sampling rate in windows

maxtherabbit wrote on 2023-06-02, 14:07:

PS/2 can sample the mouse at up to 200Hz, which is plenty. You just have to adjust the sampling rate in windows

Right, I had actually completely forgotten that I had seen a tool to increase the sample rate in Win98 and I may have never used a PS/2 mouse on later OS's that I assume have a built in way to increase it, so I had incorrectly kinda gotten in to my head that the sample rate is what it is.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-06-02, 06:37:

@all Got another question. It is more like a just in case question because the chances that it will really happen is rather sl […]
Show full quote

@all Got another question. It is more like a just in case question because the chances that it will really happen is rather slim.

In case I can find a Voodoo 4 or Voodoo 5 card that is priced way lower than normal would be worth considering instead of a Voodoo 2 or Voodoo 3?

In theory the answer would be simple yes because 4 and 5 are more powerful but maybe there are some issues I am not aware of.

That's a highly academic question and I know I am already lucky if I can find a voodoo 2 or voodoo 3 in the 100 to 200 euro range (about 200 plus shipping is the highest amount I am willing to spend) . But you never now what chances might come up...

Both Voodoo4 (single VSA-100 chip) and 5 (multiple VSA-100 chips, commonly two of them) have support for 32-bit color depth in 3D games, texture size up to 1024x1024, and both FXT1 and DXTC (S3TC) texture compression formats. Glide compatibility remains the same as with the Voodoo3.

I don't think that you would find them easily cheap since those are the most hyped products from 3dfx, in particular the Voodoo5.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-06-02, 14:43:

retep_110 wrote on 2023-06-02, 06:37:

@all Got another question. It is more like a just in case question because the chances that it will really happen is rather sl […]
Show full quote

@all Got another question. It is more like a just in case question because the chances that it will really happen is rather slim.

In case I can find a Voodoo 4 or Voodoo 5 card that is priced way lower than normal would be worth considering instead of a Voodoo 2 or Voodoo 3?

In theory the answer would be simple yes because 4 and 5 are more powerful but maybe there are some issues I am not aware of.

That's a highly academic question and I know I am already lucky if I can find a voodoo 2 or voodoo 3 in the 100 to 200 euro range (about 200 plus shipping is the highest amount I am willing to spend) . But you never now what chances might come up...

Both Voodoo4 (single VSA-100 chip) and 5 (multiple VSA-100 chips, commonly two of them) have support for 32-bit color depth in 3D games, texture size up to 1024x1024, and both FXT1 and DXTC (S3TC) texture compression formats. Glide compatibility remains the same as with the Voodoo3.

I don't think that you would find them easily cheap since those are the most hyped products from 3dfx, in particular the Voodoo5.

Thanks a lot for the info. And yes I do not think as well that I might find them for little money easily that's why I said it just a theoretical question.

The specs of the cards sound nice though and if somehow a miracle happens and I could them at cheap price I would pick one of them up.

Unlikely to happen but a man can dream .