Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-07-04, 08:08:

CRT monitor only 10 pounds, you must be kidding. Try lifting up my 19" Dell Trinitron crt if you want. I've never ever been zapp […]
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Peter Swinkels wrote on 2021-07-03, 14:47:

Be that as it may, with older computers you were stuck with pretty much the options offered by the hardware. Trust me I haven't […]
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Jo22 wrote on 2021-07-03, 14:38:

Well said, I think. […]
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Well said, I think.

This has been said a thousand times, but..
Some games were indeed as good looking/playable as we remember.
However, todays hardware is still not able to properly replicate the looks and feels of back then.
It's just not CRT vs LCD, but also other little details.
Say, the palette, blur and other analogue properties of a real CGA card's composite output; the lossy connection itself; etc.
But speaking of monitors.. I still haven't seen an modern replica of a B/W TV set, it's RF connection or an amber/green monitor that's authentic.
It seems that math alone can't replicate the chaotic glow of a phosphor screen,
or that our modern technology isn't ready yet (how ironic).
Anyways, that's a bit off-topic, I'm afraid. What I mean to say - even the screenshots shown in this thread/topic, don't do justice.
They will always be a bit different from the physical setup that each of us used to use.

Be that as it may, with older computers you were stuck with pretty much the options offered by the hardware. Trust me I haven't forgotten the many times where my computer was either a bit too fast or too slow or I didn't have the right hardware to fully enjoy a game. Today's computer screens and software may not be able to fully replicate the experience of a CRT and personally there isn't much I remember about such screens I would miss. Software emulation, especially DOSBox ironically allows me to do stuff I would have needed mulitple physical computers for, that is emulating set-ups each best suited to a specific game. And just to bring up hardware again, never ever in my life do I want to see a mouse with a trackball again or a serial port connector. Urgh. Did you enjoy strained eyes, being zapped by static electricity or having a 10 pound monitor taking up valuable deskspace when you lovingly speak of obsolete screen technology?

Yeah, seeing an old computer in a musuem or something is amusing. Not worth the details for enjoying older games imho however. It's the same as how I really don't understand how people could seriously long for a grammaphone player... And the special quality the music has when played on it.

I have no idea whether that is imagined or real, or whether it really can't be emulated.

CRT monitor only 10 pounds, you must be kidding. Try lifting up my 19" Dell Trinitron crt if you want. I've never ever been zapped from a crt. I personally love the hands on tactility of working on old kit. Something you cannot get from emulation. Serial, lpt etc ports were pretty standard for a long long time and are not a problem at all if you actually know what you are doing. I have no problem at all using ball mice on my XT-Turbo, Zenith 286LP Plus, other x86 systems or my Acorn A410, A4000s or RiscPCs or Amiga A600s and Mac SE systems. They work and work well as intended. Just like my 1976 Honda CB550H Super Sport motorcycle. They can still accomplish exactly what they were designed to do 20 plus years later.

Also with new tech continually being made for the older stuff, XT bios hdd, CF adapters, new sound cards etc they are bound to last a bit longer.

Let's get back on topic. What is your favorite game used on a 486? Where you even born when they were put on the market?

Alright, I was a bit on the conservative side, I have seen and dealt with CRT's that were heavier. Hah, try some older/low end model - you could hear the thing crackle with static electricity and even feel it if you weren't careful. Personally I don't want to have to deal with older stuff. A few exceptions are for a hobby or when I must. If I have the time, energy and other resources that is. And alright, so you have an older motorcycle that still does its job fine. It's very nice you have the time and skill to maintain it. Perhaps others don't?

Back on topic? Okay, while not specifically for the 80486 - one game that comes to mind is Leisure Suit Larry 1 VGA (the 1990 remake) - It's not the most beautiful in graphical terms, but it's a riot if you're in the mood to appreciate its brand of humor. I believe Leisure Suit Larry 7 - Love For Sail is specifically for the 80486. It also has better graphics imho. It's humor is a bit less cartoony but definitively not for everyone.

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2021-07-04, 07:30:

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-07-03, 20:40:

It's called "kicking Boris Johnson in the nuts". […]
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Peter Swinkels wrote on 2021-07-03, 20:17:

"I mean, shall we really talk about how much of Europe's population is currently obsessed with swinging one's leg at a sack of air?"- Haha, I must have missed something. What is this trend called?

It's called "kicking Boris Johnson in the nuts".

No it isn't, I jest. It's the game known as football. An old pasttime whose few simple mechanics (and clunky interface) lie over a vast wealth of complex possibilities and enjoyment, in the same way that old simple Tetris is merely "(the vast worlds of) geometry and calculus combined". Age, simplicity, technical trappings, these are two-edged swords, they can cut both ways, but alone are rarely the basis for superiority.

For example, 18th century violinist Niccolo Paganini was (by all accounts and evidence) technically superior to almost all musicians even to this day. What he created was more complex, more technical, more detailed, faster, than 99.9..% of individual musicians will ever be able to play. (Funny that, isn't it - a very old thing, which was 'tecAlmost all shrivel in comparisson to a well made modern gamehnically' superior to most new things : showing how age and technicality are not inevitably correlated.) That aside aside, how well do you think Paganini is doing in the charts these days against simple, plodding, strum-a-few-chords-and-warble Ed Sheeran?? How much enjoyment does the average human gain from the latter vs the former? Just one example of how technicals are rarely the primary factor in artistic endeavours (where computer gaming also resides).

🤣 - In short everything has it’s ups and downs and nothing is inherently superior or inferior. Age and technicality are not related per se.

Exactly. So your earlier statement "Almost all [old games] shrivel in comparisson to a well made modern game" is similarly true when inversed: "Almost all modern games shrivel in comparison to a well made old game".

Which we can simplify down to the overall truism: "most games seem average, when compared to an outstanding game". And yes, that is true! 😉 Good point!

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-07-04, 20:38:

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2021-07-04, 07:30:

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-07-03, 20:40:

It's called "kicking Boris Johnson in the nuts".

No it isn't, I jest. It's the game known as football. An old pasttime whose few simple mechanics (and clunky interface) lie over a vast wealth of complex possibilities and enjoyment, in the same way that old simple Tetris is merely "(the vast worlds of) geometry and calculus combined". Age, simplicity, technical trappings, these are two-edged swords, they can cut both ways, but alone are rarely the basis for superiority.

For example, 18th century violinist Niccolo Paganini was (by all accounts and evidence) technically superior to almost all musicians even to this day. What he created was more complex, more technical, more detailed, faster, than 99.9..% of individual musicians will ever be able to play. (Funny that, isn't it - a very old thing, which was 'tecAlmost all shrivel in comparisson to a well made modern gamehnically' superior to most new things : showing how age and technicality are not inevitably correlated.) That aside aside, how well do you think Paganini is doing in the charts these days against simple, plodding, strum-a-few-chords-and-warble Ed Sheeran?? How much enjoyment does the average human gain from the latter vs the former? Just one example of how technicals are rarely the primary factor in artistic endeavours (where computer gaming also resides).

🤣 - In short everything has it’s ups and downs and nothing is inherently superior or inferior. Age and technicality are not related per se.

Exactly. So your earlier statement "Almost all [old games] shrivel in comparisson to a well made modern game" is equally true when inversed: "Almost all modern games shrivel in comparison to a well made old game".

Which we can simplify down to the overall truism: "most games seem average, when compared to an outstanding game". And yes, that is true! 😉 Good point!

I whole heartedly concur sir..😉

And it needs repeating.

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-07-04, 20:45:

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-07-04, 20:38:

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2021-07-04, 07:30:

🤣 - In short everything has it’s ups and downs and nothing is inherently superior or inferior. Age and technicality are not related per se.

Exactly. So your earlier statement "Almost all [old games] shrivel in comparisson to a well made modern game" is equally true when inversed: "Almost all modern games shrivel in comparison to a well made old game".

Which we can simplify down to the overall truism: "most games seem average, when compared to an outstanding game". And yes, that is true! 😉 Good point!

I whole heartedly concur sir..😉

And it needs repeating.

Well, I am glad we all appear to be together in some form of agreement right now. Yay?

A well made old game that despite its utilitarian tech could give many a gamer a run for their money? Especially at its higher difficulty settings? A game that rivals modern games in a smooth and responsive interface where if you are skilled enough you can make the character you control pull off some pretty amazing acrobatics? A game that could make you rage-quit for how non-stop hard it makes the players' lives? Try playing IBM's Alley Cat (1983), not just for shits and giggles. Really try to progress as far as you can with little reward for your effort. Except for a few extra lives, which you will need to continue. That, and an increasing score.

I sometimes played it for laughs, it is pretty good at pulling off funny death scenes when you screw up. Otherwise, I would play something else where my effort appeared to be worth more than mostly just an increasing difficulty setting. Yes, I am lazy that way, I guess. 😀

null

Yeah, I think Cybersphere qualifies, looks and sounds nice for a DOS game. 😀 I see noone mention the original two DOOM episodes.

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2021-07-12, 13:01:

Yeah, I think Cybersphere qualifies, looks and sounds nice for a DOS game. 😀 I see noone mention the original two DOOM episodes.

Because they run like ass on 486 PCs except DX4s. I played Doom 1 on an DX33 and loved it, but let's be honest, it plays like ass.

null

Anders- wrote on 2021-07-12, 14:37:

appiah4 wrote on 2021-07-12, 14:06:

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2021-07-12, 13:01:

Yeah, I think Cybersphere qualifies, looks and sounds nice for a DOS game. 😀 I see noone mention the original two DOOM episodes.

Because they run like ass on 486 PCs except DX4s. I played Doom 1 on an DX33 and loved it, but let's be honest, it plays like ass.

Nah, it runs well on a VLB DX2-66.

I remember it running fine on a 80486 DX 50 mhz I used to play the game on. This was during breaks at school. Perhaps I was so glad I had the luxury of playing shoot ‘em up games at school I didn’t care whether or not it ran smoothly.

Or, I didn’t know better, I had to use even older pcs before that.

Partly depends on your other hardware. A modest 486 CPU (~40-50Mhz) with a $100-at-the-time VLB card would run Doom fine*, iirc. Versus say, the same 486 with a 1MB Trident ISA card.

Evidence : Up to ~400% framerate difference between the lowest and highest cards.

*for a given value of "fine" - standards and expectations then were not what they are now, in our modern hugescreen 100hz+ ultra-resolution raytracing wonderland of $2000 GPUs.

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-07-12, 21:00:

Partly depends on your other hardware. A modest 486 CPU (~40-50Mhz) with a $100-at-the-time VLB card would run Doom fine*, iirc. Versus say, the same 486 with a 1MB Trident ISA card.

Evidence : Up to ~400% framerate difference between the lowest and highest cards.

*for a given value of "fine" - standards and expectations then were not what they are now, in our modern hugescreen 100hz+ ultra-resolution raytracing wonderland of $2000 GPUs.

Shivers are they that much. I must remember not to buy one. Got given this G-Force thingy with my free Core 2 Duo system. It fans a huge fan. We all need fans of some sort I suppose...😉

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-07-12, 21:38:

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-07-12, 21:00:

Partly depends on your other hardware. A modest 486 CPU (~40-50Mhz) with a $100-at-the-time VLB card would run Doom fine*, iirc. Versus say, the same 486 with a 1MB Trident ISA card.

Evidence : Up to ~400% framerate difference between the lowest and highest cards.

*for a given value of "fine" - standards and expectations then were not what they are now, in our modern hugescreen 100hz+ ultra-resolution raytracing wonderland of $2000 GPUs.

Shivers are they that much. I must remember not to buy one. Got given this G-Force thingy with my free Core 2 Duo system. It fans a huge fan. We all need fans of some sort I suppose...😉

I was being conservative, in an attempt not to shock anybody. 😉

They're actually $3000+ at the top end. Yup. Utterly, utterly, nuts crazy.

Come to think of it, the CPU and video card aren’t the only important things. After getting to hear a few of my old favorites using a soundcard I wish our old 80386 had had one. A lot of games would have been even more fun to play.

appiah4 wrote on 2021-01-23, 21:50:

I think Legend of Kyrandia 2: Hand of Fate ought to win this..

What I wonder is how would it look in SVGA.
Do we have at least equally beautiful game in at least SVGA?
Is Kyrandia 2 the most beautiful game of all time?
Would it still be that beautiful in SVGA?

If you're strictly talking about the artwork, I think Quest for Glory III is the pinnacle of Sierra's art style WRT to their adventure games (although I didn't care for the game itself).

Albion is another stand-out in terms of backgrounds although I don't care for the appearance of the characters.

appiah4 wrote on 2021-01-23, 21:50:

I think Legend of Kyrandia 2: Hand of Fate ought to win this..

I liked the artwork in both the original and 2. I don't recall ever finishing LOK2 because all the jumping around from this place and that got really irritating and I think I put the game down after some point.

robertmo2 wrote on 2022-12-24, 10:48:

What I wonder is how would it look in SVGA. Do we have at least equally beautiful game in at least SVGA? Is Kyrandia 2 the most […]
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appiah4 wrote on 2021-01-23, 21:50:

I think Legend of Kyrandia 2: Hand of Fate ought to win this..

What I wonder is how would it look in SVGA.
Do we have at least equally beautiful game in at least SVGA?
Is Kyrandia 2 the most beautiful game of all time?
Would it still be that beautiful in SVGA?

Good question. I think with SVGA it might still have been looking fine. But if you crank the resolution further up it wouldn't. Unlike 3D polygon textures and whatnot Pixelart is just made for one specific resolution and nothing else. Basically "Pixelart" as such cannot exist on 1080p unless you artificially restrict the amount of used (fake) pixels.

From my personal experience I can even remember that when I played Duke Nukem 3D back then that I SVGA modes just didnt feel right for me. From today perspective I guess they just look better. But back then I perceived them as "being wrong".

Also you might remember that games were switching from "pixelart" (and I am using that term losely also for photographs of painted art turned into pixels) like in Kings Quest 6 or Monkey Island 2 into something which was just comic Drawings in Kings Quest 7 and Monkey Island 3 once they switched to SVGA (correct my if I am wrong and they weren't svga)

actually Curse of Monkey Island can look good:
https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/origin … 462-8850152.jpg
as well as Galador:
https://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/6704 … hot-meeting.png
So I guess Kyrandia 2 could look better in 640x480 too

robertmo2 wrote on 2022-12-25, 21:13:

actually Curse of Monkey Island can look good: https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/origin … 462-8850152.jpg as well as Galado […]
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actually Curse of Monkey Island can look good:
https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/origin … 462-8850152.jpg
as well as Galador:
https://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/6704 … hot-meeting.png
So I guess Kyrandia 2 could look better in 640x480 too

Imho these games look worse. But then its down to taste again I guess ^^

how about Lost Horizon:
https://d31-a.sdn.cz/d_31/d_15081065/img/56/1 … 1080_xirQs4.jpg
https://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/4615 … n-keeps-the.jpg

robertmo2 wrote on 2022-12-25, 21:42:

how about Lost Horizon:
https://d31-a.sdn.cz/d_31/d_15081065/img/56/1 … 1080_xirQs4.jpg
https://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/4615 … n-keeps-the.jpg

Yeah, thats great art. And I prefer that over the "comic art". But it is a completely different style. And the character is even a 3D model it seems. Not sure if you can really compare it.