VOGONS


First post, by notindeed

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So listening to how the intro midi in doom is meant to sound:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Trs7tpCli5w

Listen to the left ear, for about the first for seconds there is a cool kind of whispy synth noise that kind of floats about pitch.

However, considering that i don't own any midi hardware, i can't get that noise to be played on any soundfont or anything. Whenever i play it tends to sound like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXNBc0bF-fM

Also notice that in this version, the sound gets appreciable louder partway through.

Is this a fact of doom playing using different midi tracks for optimised different devices (soundcard / midi module)? Considering i am using zdoom, i'm not sure how to change that if it is the case anyway.... ?

The strange thing is, even with something like vsc, from samples i've heard, that doesn't appear to have that cool little noise either, which seems rather odd as i thought it was meant to be compatible.

I did read stuff about gm having propriety parts that only roland hardware can support, so maybe it is something to do with that, or am i spouting rubbish?

For more comparisons, people can try listening to this:
http://rfleshman-dsl.smt-net.com/music/browse.php?id=739

You can even select an 8850 which should in theory sound cool.
I haven't gotten it to work though at this time so i haven't heard it.
It used to be working, but i think the stream is broken? Could anyone try?

Hmm yes i am kind of new to this midi business so bear with me!!

Thanks.

Reply 1 of 24, by Mau1wurf1977

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Doom - all sound tracks on a SC-55:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBm_qK5jvPI

My website with reviews, demos, drivers, tutorials and more...
My YouTube channel

Reply 2 of 24, by d1stortion

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Virtual Sound Canvas differs from the real hardware. If you want the real thing, get the real thing. The SC-55 should not cost you an arm and a leg.

If you don't want to get hardware there are numerous cool software synthesizers to try out. One of my favorites is the Yamaha S-YXG50, which you can get here for free (2k/XP only, 7 with tweaking): http://djtbmx.stdrand.com/DLs/MSXG_driver-edited.zip

Simply install it with Add New Hardware. You can change it in ZDoom where it normally says FMOD in the sound settings then.

Reply 3 of 24, by rfnagel

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notindeed wrote:

So listening to how the intro midi in doom is meant to sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Trs7tpCli5w
Listen to the left ear, for about the first for seconds there is a cool kind of whispy synth noise that kind of floats about pitch.

However, considering that i don't own any midi hardware, i can't get that noise to be played on any soundfont or anything.

That sound would be MIDI patch 094 "Pad 7 (Halo)". I'm thinking that it simply must be how it sounds on that specific MIDI module in the video (a Roland Sound Canvas SC-155).

I noticed that I could hear the effect ever-so-slightly using my "¥Weeds¥ General MIDI SoundFont v3.0", but of course... all SoundFonts and MIDI modules are going to sound different (especially with the "weird synthy" patches/instruments).

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Reply 4 of 24, by notindeed

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Moleman! I watched your video before, and it seems the sc-55 is the same as the sc-155 in this case - at least it sounds the same. I just chose the other clip as it was already separated into the midi file in question.
-----------
As much as you would expect things to not be expensive, the only place i know where to look is ebay and ebay prices, especially uk ebay tend to be rather extortionate, particularly considering i would just be using it to make games sound more accurate.

Thanks for the info about the yamaha softsynth - i had forgotten how to install them and was wondering why right clicking install on the ini file wasn't doing anything!! 😁
What's the difference between the S-YXG50 and the S-YXG100 plus? (I assume the S-YXG100 is a later version or with 'better' samples?).

Also i think i read somewhere on these forums that the only correct / accurate yamaha softsynth is one that is a vst / vsti or something? Is that the case? And is it available?

Personally, from listening to yamaha stuff, it tends to feel less 'balanced' than roland but at the same time more natural and with better samples. The roland sounds more synthetic but at the same time gives a nicer overall sound, such that the sounds and volumes go together a lot better.

I guess the yamaha would sound a lot better on things composed for it. Is there a list of games that take advantage of it / were written for it? And if so, would you only get the advantage if you set your soundcard to some yamaha device in the music settings of a dos game (as opposed to just general midi) ?
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Weeds, thanks for that info!

It does seem strange though, as isn't the virtual sound canvas supposed to contain the same instrument set as an sc-55 (and 88 and 88 pro, though i don't really know what the difference is).
The way the sound kind of "wavers" made me think it must be some kind of effect being added to the sample that for some reason is only played correctly on the hardware, but that the sample was the same? I don't know really.

It's weird though, soundfonts have always seemed rather buggy to me, with notes going off-key and sounding rather strange. I don't know if this is anything to do with them being built with less care or just down to the format itself.
Certainly, loading them onto my x-fi xtreme gamer tended to give strange results sometimes. But even with BASSMIDI it seems like there can be issues. Perhaps certain instruments are just bad in certain soundfonts but it really does sound like the pitches go strange.

For me, i've found SGM 2.1 to be one of the best balanced, although i haven't been too happy with some of its samples.
Realfont seems quite nice but isn't balanced quite as well.
With your font, there is a strange issue with the doom 2 "wolfenstein" track d_evil ; where the gunshot is used to represent marching feet. For some reason using your soundfont it sounds awfully strange and broken on my computer.
At first i thought it was just the sample you used, but then i loaded another gunshot sample into the creative soundbank to compare (from some weird collosus soundfont set that someone made, i'm not really sure what it is but it's not balanced very well at all so i wouldn't recommenced it - nice samples but bad overall, and strange pitch issues too).
It turns out that it sounds like you use the same exact sample. However when play the track with their sample, it sounds fine. So that is rather confusing!

Do vstis themselves control the "effects" like reverb and chorus and stuff, or is that controlled by the host vst, like savihost or whatever? And for soundfonts? Is that done by the soundfont? Or BASSMIDI / creative?

Only, I guess if you really wanted to emulate a sc-55 properly, you would need the correct samples, balanced to the correct levels, but not only that but also hugely important would be the effects applied in the same manner.

Could there be some emulation project for something like this, similar to something like munt, or am i way off the mark?

Only, soundfonts seem really bad in this "emulation" regard - i tried a sc-55 one once and it was quite awful. And soundfonts in general don't give me a world of confidence.
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I guess to really have a "correct sounding" midi playback, you can vastly improve the samples, making them feel like real instruments, but you also need to keep the balance the same as roland sc-55 and also the method and implementation of applying effects.
Also, keeping the samples similar in terms of choice (i mean in type of instrument and same kind of effect - for example a similar yet improved gunshot or choir or scream, as opposed to a wildly different sounding one that would not work and also would break things where sound effects are used for different things than their intended purpose).

Can anyone get that streaming playback to work that i linked in the original post? it would be interesting to hear what it sounds like on an 8850.
I am wondering if all roland hardware is kind of "balanced the same" and so hopefully it would sound basically "correct but with better samples" kind of thing.
If so, it is this kind of approach that could be taken in terms of creating a vsti or soundfont or softsynth midi module project to kind of improve everyone's midi!

-------
Btw, has anyone tried mudlord's VST MIDI Driver ?
I tried it but it seems really problematic, which was surprising considering how lightweight BASSMIDI is.
It seemed that whenever a new track was loaded in doom, it would take about 5 - 10 seconds for it to load the instruments, then it would freeze the computer for a second or so and then it would start the playback in the middle of the tune (as it had obviously been playing without instruments for the first part).
This happened every time the song was changed (or music reset). It also happened outside of doom, just in my mediaplayer (potplayer).

Strange, considering looping midi with loopmidi and using savihost seemed to work a lot better.

Sorry this is so long, this is a bit of a confusing subject for me.

Reply 5 of 24, by rfnagel

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notindeed wrote:

Weeds, thanks for that info!

You're welcome 😀

notindeed wrote:

It does seem strange though, as isn't the virtual sound canvas supposed to contain the same instrument set as an sc-55 (and 88 and 88 pro, though i don't really know what the difference is).

I had always thought that the VSC used a ROM dump from the actual SC-55 (so the samples should be identical), but I may be mistaken.

BTW, FYI, the sample file included with the Yamaha S-YXG50 Software Synthesizer *IS* an actual ROM dump from the MU50/DB50XG.

notindeed wrote:

It's weird though, soundfonts have always seemed rather buggy to me, with notes going off-key and sounding rather strange. I don't know if this is anything to do with them being built with less care or just down to the format itself. Certainly, loading them onto my x-fi xtreme gamer tended to give strange results sometimes. But even with BASSMIDI it seems like there can be issues. Perhaps certain instruments are just bad in certain soundfonts but it really does sound like the pitches go strange.

The difference (or rather, problems) that you hear are more than likely due to the author's construction of the SoundFont.

That being said, welcome to the wonderful world of downloading and auditioning CAZILLIONS of SoundFonts... only to discover that out of the whole mess, only one or two are really worth a crap 🤣!

notindeed wrote:

With your font, there is a strange issue with the doom 2 "wolfenstein" track d_evil ; where the gunshot is used to represent marching feet. For some reason using your soundfont it sounds awfully strange and broken on my computer.

At first i thought it was just the sample you used, but then i loaded another gunshot sample into the creative soundbank to compare (from some weird collosus soundfont set that someone made, i'm not really sure what it is but it's not balanced very well at all so i wouldn't recommenced it - nice samples but bad overall, and strange pitch issues too).

It turns out that it sounds like you use the same exact sample. However when play the track with their sample, it sounds fine. So that is rather confusing!

I think that the problem that you (we) are hearing with the marching feet is from the actual sample that I used for the "gunshot" patch, as well as the pitch that it is set for in my SoundFont.

Hehe, I seriously doubt that other SoundFont used that same sample for the gunshot preset... MINE is the shotgun blast from Duke Nukem 3D 🤣! My goal was to find something that sounded like a gunshot... yet at very low pitches, sounds like a CANNON BLAST.

BTW, you can hear my intended usage of that instrument (and sample) at the immediate ending of one of my own compositions here -> http://tinyurl.com/7q7u7ys 😀

notindeed wrote:

Do vstis themselves control the "effects" like reverb and chorus and stuff, or is that controlled by the host vst, like savihost or whatever? And for soundfonts? Is that done by the soundfont? Or BASSMIDI / creative?

The VSTi's themselves control those effects. For SoundFonts, although one can set the amount of those effects within the SoundFont itself, the ACTUAL effects are generated by the hardware (e.g. SBLive!, etc...) or software (in the case of the BASSMIDI Driver).

notindeed wrote:

Could there be some emulation project for something like this, similar to something like munt, or am i way off the mark?

Hehe, the bog-standard Microsoft GS Wavetable Software Synthesizer that comes with WinDoZe 🤣! 😀

notindeed wrote:

Only, soundfonts seem really bad in this "emulation" regard - i tried a sc-55 one once and it was quite awful.

SoundFonts usually do not emulate other devices that well.

notindeed wrote:

And soundfonts in general don't give me a world of confidence.

For what can be done with them; check some of my music in the little Shockwave Flash MP3 players at the top of my web page here -> http://www.richnagel.net ... ESPECIALLY the prettier sounding and orchestral ones (click the "current music track playlists" XML links for the titles and genres of the songs). Really shows off what a (quality) SoundFont can do 😀

Rich ¥Weeds¥ Nagel
http://www.richnagel.net

Reply 6 of 24, by robertmo

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rfnagel wrote:
notindeed wrote:

Could there be some emulation project for something like this, similar to something like munt, or am i way off the mark?

Hehe, the bog-standard Microsoft GS Wavetable Software Synthesizer that comes with WinDoZe 🤣! 😀

isn't VSC already better?

Reply 7 of 24, by rfnagel

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robertmo wrote:

isn't VSC already better?

Yes, the VSC is considerably better than the MSGSSW Synth, but I figured that I'd mention it nonetheless 😀

Rich ¥Weeds¥ Nagel
http://www.richnagel.net

Reply 8 of 24, by notindeed

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I had always thought that the VSC used a ROM dump from the actual SC-55 (so the samples should be identical), but I may be mistaken.

Hmm that's strange, as if it really is a ROM dump then surely it should sound identical? At least in terms of samples (maybe not effects?). But then why would it sound different?

Hehe, I seriously doubt that other SoundFont used that same sample for the gunshot preset... MINE is the shotgun blast from Duke Nukem 3D Laughing Out Loud! My goal was to find something that sounded like a gunshot... yet at very low pitches, sounds like a CANNON BLAST.

Maybe using the creative soundfont bank manager to preview sounds is a dodgy method, but from that, they really are the same sound 😖:S:S ?

Hehe, the bog-standard Microsoft GS Wavetable Software Synthesizer that comes with WinDoZe

Hehe, nice joke :p
It does make you wonder why it sounds so bad though, just from leaving out all the effects. It's a bit shocking really.

I wonder if one day there will be a "munt-like" project for sc-55 or sc-8850 / 8820... hmmm.

Hmm I know that amazing things can be done with soundfonts, but it seems really that is when you are composing towards that soundfont.
From my experience, they seem buggy and can play broken pitch (even when the soundfont is correct), especially when using creative's drivers and larger soundfonts.

In terms of something for old game music, you really need something that has been balanced in terms of levels and effects for the sc-55 (or i guess all roland device's "levels" are similar?).

Maybe VSTis will be better? At least in terms of balance and consistency? If so what would you recommend?

Still don't understand why that VSTi driver thing made by the BASSMIDI people doesn't work very well 😖 Is it like that for everyone?

Thanks

Reply 9 of 24, by jwt27

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notindeed wrote:

Hehe, the bog-standard Microsoft GS Wavetable Software Synthesizer that comes with WinDoZe

Hehe, nice joke :p
It does make you wonder why it sounds so bad though, just from leaving out all the effects. It's a bit shocking really.

Have you heard the MS DirectMusic synth? I believe it is the same thing, WITH the effects. It sounds much better.

Reply 10 of 24, by notindeed

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Nope never heard of it?? If it's a lot better why didn't the include it with windows instead of the rubbish Microsoft GS Wavetable Softsynth?
I wonder how it compares to vsc? (Or even sc-55, though don't get my hopes up 😉 )

Reply 12 of 24, by d1stortion

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I never ever heard of anything like this. AFAIK the "DirectMusic synth" simply IS the MS GS Wavetable SW synth. And it is not rubbish. It still consists of licensed Roland sounds, albeit in lower quality and without effects. But that's still enough to beat many shitty wavetable products from that time.

Reply 13 of 24, by jwt27

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I just recorded E1M1 on it which seems to be THE wavetable comparison track. As you can hear it sounds more or less the same as the default MS synth, but with reverb. I think it's not too bad.

https://www.box.com/s/gqsup4pfogo7fbesmc0x

Note that this is just some MIDI file found on the interwebs which may or may not be ripped correctly. It might sound completely different if the MIDI data came straight from the game.

Last edited by jwt27 on 2013-06-03, 14:13. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 14 of 24, by d1stortion

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I can't open your file. Needs a login or something.

You say you select this from Winamp. Did you ever had this option in any other program that allows to select MIDI synths. DOSBox, MIDI sequencers, source ports, whatever. Because I have WinXP and I only get the default MS synth. It's probably just a Winamp thing.

Reply 15 of 24, by robertmo

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In dxdiag there is:
Microsoft Synthesizer
Microsoft MIDI Mapper [Emulated]
Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth [Emulated]

I always wondered what is Microsoft Synthesizer as it is not available to be chosen from midi mapper. I guess it is some superior technology not compatible with midi mapper (better alternative for midi mapper). And I guess most programs use midi mapper devices only not bothering to support Microsoft Synthesizer. I guess Winamp may be an exception.
It looks even Windows Media Player is not using it.

Reply 16 of 24, by jwt27

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d1stortion wrote:

I can't open your file. Needs a login or something.

You say you select this from Winamp. Did you ever had this option in any other program that allows to select MIDI synths. DOSBox, MIDI sequencers, source ports, whatever. Because I have WinXP and I only get the default MS synth. It's probably just a Winamp thing.

Ooops, wrong link. I changed it, this one should work.

As I said, I've never seen it anywhere else. Just Winamp and dxdiag. Here's a screenshot of the Winamp MIDI selection dialog attached.
Not sure what the chinese stuff is, probably some unicode fuckup.

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Reply 17 of 24, by rfnagel

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Microsoft DirectMusic will not show up as a standard MIDI device within the various versions of the Windows Control Panel MIDI device selection screens. That being said, a few programs (such as WinAmp, DXDiag, or a game or application that has native support) can utilize it.

Microsoft DirectMusic is essentially the same thing as the bog-standard Microsoft GS Wavetable Software Synthesizer, but it also supports reverb and chorus, as well as a slew of other effects.

Anyhow, one program that can be used to access Microsoft DirectMusic, as well as author MIDI files specifically taylored for it is the Microsoft DirectMusic Producer. The link seems to be currently dead, but here was the download link for Microsoft DirectMusic Producer -> http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details. … id=20215&mnui=1 .

Rich ¥Weeds¥ Nagel
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Reply 19 of 24, by jwt27

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Just heard a few TT midis in Winamp, now I'm pretty much 99% sure OpenTTD is using the DirectMusic synth.

Also I did have the DM Producer installed a few years back, maybe that's why it shows up in Winamp?

Here's another track for comparison, "Going down the fast way" from ROTT: https://www.box.com/s/qxgqlvbt16krlwyy5zii

The synth itself appears to be playing at 48kHz, yet the samples are only about 24kHz.