EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-05-14, 19:43:

Falcosoft wrote on 2024-05-14, 18:41:

Can you share an example of such clipping? Actually clipping in the traditional sense should not happen even in the 16-bit int […]
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EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-05-14, 17:10:

Maybe it's my fault, but even with 32-bit output there's some audible clipping.

Can you share an example of such clipping?
Actually clipping in the traditional sense should not happen even in the 16-bit integer/master version since version 0.1.1.
https://github.com/nukeykt/Nuked-SC55/commit/ … 4f3447972317948

This is small selection from Descent 2 credits theme. I know, I could've mute drums so I wouldn't need to cut this part out, but hey.

Sounds like aliasing but it's way too short a sample. Please include the whole track for proper analysis, with a gap at the start and end.

Spikey wrote on 2024-05-15, 06:15:

EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-05-14, 19:43:

Falcosoft wrote on 2024-05-14, 18:41:

Can you share an example of such clipping?
Actually clipping in the traditional sense should not happen even in the 16-bit integer/master version since version 0.1.1.
https://github.com/nukeykt/Nuked-SC55/commit/ … 4f3447972317948

This is small selection from Descent 2 credits theme. I know, I could've mute drums so I wouldn't need to cut this part out, but hey.

Sounds like aliasing but it's way too short a sample. Please include the whole track for proper analysis, with a gap at the start and end.

For the sake of discussion but also an eagerness to learn. Why do you (generally?) want a gap at the beginning and end?

Karmeck wrote on 2024-05-15, 11:04:

...
For the sake of discussion but also an eagerness to learn. Why do you (generally?) want a gap at the beginning and end?

I think because it's not always obvious if a click/crack/pop at the very beginning is caused by a sudden cut of a previous sample (or other recording related artifact) or genuinely generated this way by the emulator.

Falcosoft wrote on 2024-05-14, 20:34:

It does not sound and does not look like clipping. There is a glitch-like problem at the very beginning of the right channel but […]
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EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-05-14, 19:43:

Falcosoft wrote on 2024-05-14, 18:41:

Can you share an example of such clipping?
Actually clipping in the traditional sense should not happen even in the 16-bit integer/master version since version 0.1.1.
https://github.com/nukeykt/Nuked-SC55/commit/ … 4f3447972317948

This is small selection from Descent 2 credits theme. I know, I could've mute drums so I wouldn't need to cut this part out, but hey.

It does not sound and does not look like clipping. There is a glitch-like problem at the very beginning of the right channel but it's not because of sample overflow/clipping (the amplitude at the glitch is about -5 dBFS). There are louder problem free samples in the recording. Maybe a buffer underrun or another bug?
Just to be clear: You also hear it real-time from the synth not just on the recordings, don't you?
glitch.png

Yeah, real-time as well.

Spikey wrote on 2024-05-15, 06:15:

EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-05-14, 19:43:

Falcosoft wrote on 2024-05-14, 18:41:

Can you share an example of such clipping?
Actually clipping in the traditional sense should not happen even in the 16-bit integer/master version since version 0.1.1.
https://github.com/nukeykt/Nuked-SC55/commit/ … 4f3447972317948

This is small selection from Descent 2 credits theme. I know, I could've mute drums so I wouldn't need to cut this part out, but hey.

Sounds like aliasing but it's way too short a sample. Please include the whole track for proper analysis, with a gap at the start and end.

Here's the longer version. The clipping-like effect is best heard in uncompressed version, but it's still pretty audible here.
Link to an uncompressed version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PmI_hy0kxihy … iew?usp=sharing

Maybe asking about somthing obvious here, but. Why do we need a recording, from anyone?

Everyone has access to what is tested, and the files needed to conduct their own test. If errors occur that no one can reproduce, other than the person having them, it's fair to call for bad hardware or even user error (no disrespect).

At the same time, I do see, the satisfaction, in squishing a rare bug.

If no issue exist of this, issue, over at GitHub, I very much appreciated if it was crated, so it can be properly tracked. And more people can be aware of it. As I can't hear it, I can't create it my self.

EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-05-15, 18:20:

Spikey wrote on 2024-05-15, 06:15:

EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-05-14, 19:43:

This is small selection from Descent 2 credits theme. I know, I could've mute drums so I wouldn't need to cut this part out, but hey.

Sounds like aliasing but it's way too short a sample. Please include the whole track for proper analysis, with a gap at the start and end.

Here's the longer version. The clipping-like effect is best heard in uncompressed version, but it's still pretty audible here.
Link to an uncompressed version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PmI_hy0kxihy … iew?usp=sharing

It might be worth adjusting buffer settings as a troubleshooting step.

EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-05-15, 18:20:

Spikey wrote on 2024-05-15, 06:15:

EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-05-14, 19:43:

This is small selection from Descent 2 credits theme. I know, I could've mute drums so I wouldn't need to cut this part out, but hey.

Sounds like aliasing but it's way too short a sample. Please include the whole track for proper analysis, with a gap at the start and end.

Here's the longer version. The clipping-like effect is best heard in uncompressed version, but it's still pretty audible here.
Link to an uncompressed version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PmI_hy0kxihy … iew?usp=sharing

What these recordings are demonstrating isn't clipping but aliasing, assuming you mean the filter sound. Aliasing is most famously heard on the JV-80 series. It's similar to clipping in the sense that distortion is generated above a volume threshold but unlike clipping, volume doesn't have to be above 0dB for the aliasing effect to be heard.
It's typically heard in filter sweeps and resonant type sounds. And TBH, I don't always consider it a negative thing. Love it at times on my JV-90.

Aliasing is definitely typical (in certain cases) on the SC-adjacent JV-80/880/90/1000, but I don't remember it in the SC-55. Of course I haven't listened to a real SC-55 for some time.

From the Roland JV FAQ (credit to Don Solaris):
"A 32 kHz DAC can in fact produce frequencies above 16 kHz. This is considered an artifact and is known as aliasing. Back then manufacturers spent a ton of resources to suppress and remove as much of these as possible. As we can see Roland went for the simpler / cheaper option with some basic LPF filter behind the DAC, far away in specs of today’s brick wall filters. In fact service manual suggest this scenario as well. As a result of all that a lot of signal is aliased."
This was also changed in the Roland JV-1080 and beyond, which has much less of this. Both for better and worse.

Emperor, do you have a link to the specific MIDI you used so others can test the hypothesis?

For the sake of discussion but also an eagerness to learn. Why do you (generally?) want a gap at the beginning and end?

Well, it depends on the scenario. In the UltraProteus I wanted it so I could remove awful shrill noise from the recording and make it listenable!
In this case, we don't know what's going on with the user's setup - in fact everyone pretty much uses different audio devices with their Roland's etc. It's useful to hear what the background noise level is in someone's setup (sometimes that could even be the problem or exacerbating it), and also sample and remove it from the recording and see if results are different then.

And as Falcosoft mentioned, it's useful to hear things in totality. We don't know from a 7 second sample whether the track plays normally and if that was an aberration, or whether the (perceived) issue is throughout, etc etc. The beginning and end of recordings done by non-savvy people can result in distorted audio themselves.

Maybe asking about somthing obvious here, but. Why do we need a recording, from anyone?

The objective is to determine if there IS an issue or whether this is expected behaviour (as in, the aliasing happens on real hardware, therefore it's not a bug) - or if there is an issue, whether it's on the user's side etc. Let me put this to you - without hearing what the user is hearing, how would anyone be able to test that user's claim or even know what their issue is?

Spikey wrote on Yesterday, 13:22:

What these recordings are demonstrating isn't clipping but aliasing, assuming you mean the filter sound. Aliasing is most famous […]
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EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-05-15, 18:20:

Spikey wrote on 2024-05-15, 06:15:

Sounds like aliasing but it's way too short a sample. Please include the whole track for proper analysis, with a gap at the start and end.

Here's the longer version. The clipping-like effect is best heard in uncompressed version, but it's still pretty audible here.
Link to an uncompressed version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PmI_hy0kxihy … iew?usp=sharing

What these recordings are demonstrating isn't clipping but aliasing, assuming you mean the filter sound. Aliasing is most famously heard on the JV-80 series. It's similar to clipping in the sense that distortion is generated above a volume threshold but unlike clipping, volume doesn't have to be above 0dB for the aliasing effect to be heard.
It's typically heard in filter sweeps and resonant type sounds. And TBH, I don't always consider it a negative thing. Love it at times on my JV-90.

Aliasing is definitely typical (in certain cases) on the SC-adjacent JV-80/880/90/1000, but I don't remember it in the SC-55. Of course I haven't listened to a real SC-55 for some time.

From the Roland JV FAQ (credit to Don Solaris):
"A 32 kHz DAC can in fact produce frequencies above 16 kHz. This is considered an artifact and is known as aliasing. Back then manufacturers spent a ton of resources to suppress and remove as much of these as possible. As we can see Roland went for the simpler / cheaper option with some basic LPF filter behind the DAC, far away in specs of today’s brick wall filters. In fact service manual suggest this scenario as well. As a result of all that a lot of signal is aliased."
This was also changed in the Roland JV-1080 and beyond, which has much less of this. Both for better and worse.

Emperor, do you have a link to the specific MIDI you used so others can test the hypothesis?

Just call me Grieferus, since I can't really change my nickname here. Anyway, here it is: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P_UxGggi-rqU … iew?usp=sharing
Strangely enough, aliasing isn't present in the official release versions.

Falcosoft wrote on 2024-04-21, 23:42:

The final buffer size is a product of page_size and page_count (page_size * page_count). If you want 4096 as a final buffer size […]
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Karmeck wrote on 2024-04-21, 23:19:

Greatly appreciated and a bit overwhelming. So many new options.

What is the default buffer size? I can find the number 4096.

The final buffer size is a product of page_size and page_count (page_size * page_count). If you want 4096 as a final buffer size you can use e.g. 1024 as page_size and 4 as page count

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1-ab:1024:4

The default buffer size of the above test release is 8192

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1-ab:2048:4

The master version uses 16384:

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1-ab:512:32

@Edit:
I have also made a 32-bit Win XP compatible test release. Since under Win XP SDL2 cannot use WASAPI only Directsound bigger buffer defaults are set (-ab:8192:4). In the zip the 32-bit SDL2.dll is also included.
https://github.com/Falcosoft/Nuked-SC55/relea … t_x86_winxp.zip

It works fairly well with a Core2 Duo 3.2 GHz under Win XP SP3 (30-35% CPU usage).

I've been using the Windows XP build and it works great.

Hopefully, future updates will be made for Windows XP in the future.

paxstatic wrote on Yesterday, 23:21:

Falcosoft wrote on 2024-04-21, 23:42:

The final buffer size is a product of page_size and page_count (page_size * page_count). If you want 4096 as a final buffer size […]
Show full quote

Karmeck wrote on 2024-04-21, 23:19:

Greatly appreciated and a bit overwhelming. So many new options.

What is the default buffer size? I can find the number 4096.

The final buffer size is a product of page_size and page_count (page_size * page_count). If you want 4096 as a final buffer size you can use e.g. 1024 as page_size and 4 as page count

Copy code to clipboard

1-ab:1024:4

The default buffer size of the above test release is 8192

Copy code to clipboard

1-ab:2048:4

The master version uses 16384:

Copy code to clipboard

1-ab:512:32

@Edit:
I have also made a 32-bit Win XP compatible test release. Since under Win XP SDL2 cannot use WASAPI only Directsound bigger buffer defaults are set (-ab:8192:4). In the zip the 32-bit SDL2.dll is also included.
https://github.com/Falcosoft/Nuked-SC55/relea … t_x86_winxp.zip

It works fairly well with a Core2 Duo 3.2 GHz under Win XP SP3 (30-35% CPU usage).

I've been using the Windows XP build and it works great.

Hopefully, future updates will be made for Windows XP in the future.

Windows xp version also made it possible for me to start the emulator on an a really old laptop. With windows 10, but one of those official lighter versions.
Ran like shit and is unusable, but it starts.