Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby EmperorGrieferus » 2019-3-27 @ 16:19

I have crazy idea for Simple Gain VST.
How's about increase gain range max value to 24 dB?
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby Falcosoft » 2019-3-27 @ 16:56

EmperorGrieferus wrote:I have crazy idea for Simple Gain VST.
How's about increase gain range max value to 24 dB?


The current max value of +12 dB means the original signal can be boosted to ~4x. 24 dB would mean a ~16x boost. It's really crazy. I can not imagine any practical situations where a 16x boost would be necessary.
Moreover extending the gain range would sacrifice the possibility of finer adjustments in the more meaningful/useful range of current -12 to +12 dB. So I'm not convinced it is a good idea.

@Edit:
I have tried Monkey Island MT-32 version with Munt VSTi. This is one of the quietest Midi I have met and even at +12 dB it clips. What Midi you used where more than +12 dB gain would be necessary?
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby EmperorGrieferus » 2019-3-27 @ 19:46

Falcosoft wrote:
EmperorGrieferus wrote:I have crazy idea for Simple Gain VST.
How's about increase gain range max value to 24 dB?


The current max value of +12 dB means the original signal can be boosted to ~4x. 24 dB would mean a ~16x boost. It's really crazy. I can not imagine any practical situations where a 16x boost would be necessary.
Moreover extending the gain range would sacrifice the possibility of finer adjustments in the more meaningful/useful range of current -12 to +12 dB. So I'm not convinced it is a good idea.

@Edit:
I have tried Monkey Island MT-32 version with Munt VSTi. This is one of the quietest Midi I have met and even at +12 dB it clips. What Midi you used where more than +12 dB gain would be necessary?

My practical situation requires this value. Because i'm tired of high-frequency noises in recordings of SCVA samples that I can't fully reduce (I'm about Rock Organ, French Horn, Accordion, Bandoneon, and some others. All that samples were super-panned).
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby Falcosoft » 2019-3-27 @ 21:18

EmperorGrieferus wrote:
My practical situation requires this value. Because i'm tired of high-frequency noises in recordings of SCVA samples that I can't fully reduce (I'm about Rock Organ, French Horn, Accordion, Bandoneon, and some others. All that samples were super-panned).

To be honest I do not understand how adding more gain could reduce any noise. Gain is not a filter. It strengthens the whole signal together with noise.
Have you tried using 32000 Hz sample rate instead? Maybe you hear some interpolation artifacts. If modified sample rate can not help using a low-pass filter is still more reasonable against high frequency noise than using gain. Try e.g. Gband or ReaFIR:
https://www.gvst.co.uk/gband.htm
https://www.reaper.fm/reaplugs/
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby EmperorGrieferus » 2019-3-27 @ 21:40

Falcosoft wrote:
EmperorGrieferus wrote:
My practical situation requires this value. Because i'm tired of high-frequency noises in recordings of SCVA samples that I can't fully reduce (I'm about Rock Organ, French Horn, Accordion, Bandoneon, and some others. All that samples were super-panned).

To be honest I do not understand how adding more gain could reduce any noise. Gain is not a filter. It strengthens the whole signal together with noise.
Have you tried using 32000 Hz sample rate instead? Maybe you hear some interpolation artifacts. If modified sample rate can not help using a low-pass filter is still more reasonable against high frequency noise than using gain. Try e.g. Gband or ReaFIR:
https://www.gvst.co.uk/gband.htm
https://www.reaper.fm/reaplugs/

You will be impressed, but left sample of Rock Organ on 81 key don't have noises because his source volume was -14,39. All other samples had noises because they had -20 - -30 dB source volume.
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby Falcosoft » 2019-3-27 @ 21:58

OK. I do not think you fully understand what my Gain VST plugin can do. Even if the 'source volume' is the problem that causes noise, SimpleGainVST cannot magically correct the characteristics of SC-VA's sound generation. If the noise is there when SC-VA generates the tones (it does not matter what causes this noise) it will stay there since the SimpleGainVST plugin only gets the samples after SC-VA rendered and mixed them. If the rendered samples contain noise then Gain strengthens the noise also as I said before.
As a prove try this: record SC-VA's output and load it into your favorite Wave Editor (e.g. Soundforge or whatever else). Then add 24 dB gain to it. You will notice that the noise cannot magically disappear. That is exactly what my gain plugin can do also. Nothing more, nothing less.
Upload some samples since I have the strong feeling that there is some misunderstanding here.
Last edited by Falcosoft on 2019-3-27 @ 22:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby EmperorGrieferus » 2019-3-27 @ 22:06

Falcosoft wrote:OK. I do not think you fully understand what my Gain VST plugin can do. Even if the 'source volume' is the problem that causes noise, SimpleGainVST cannot magically correct the characteristics of SC-VA's sound generation. If the noise is there when SC-VA generates the tones (it does not matter what causes this noise) it will stay there since the SimpleGainVST plugin only gets the samples after SC-VA rendered and mixed them. If the rendered samples contain noise then Gain strengthens the noise also as I said before.
As a prove try this: record SC-VA's output an load it into your favorite Wave Editor (e.g. Soundforge or whatever else). Then add 24 dB gain to it. You will notice that the noise cannot magically disappear. That is exactly what my gain plugin can do also. Nothing more, nothing less.

It seems I can't normally explain.
I'm recording super-panned samples for easier looping, but saving sound. I found that these samples were VERY silent. Their silence causes noises.
Attachments
O9pQYdcLdHA.jpg
Same steps as second image. That's what I said earlier. Both samples are on 6th octave and were amplified before taking screenshots.
aSWodRpY7dw.jpg
Look at amplify level and after look at upper right angle.
YQO_t2PnkpU.jpg
Look at upper sample. That's what I'm talking about.
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby Falcosoft » 2019-3-27 @ 22:39

I see. If you add 12 dB gain to the upper sample by using 'Effect->Amplify' in your Audacity then you should get exactly the same result that SimpleGainVST would do when gain is set to 12 dB. That is the whole signal strengthened by 12 dB together with noise... +24 dB would also strengthen the whole signal further but also the noise proportionally. Increasing gain cannot help decreasing noise if the noise is already in the recording.
The same is true for the real time gain effect of the gain plugin. It cannot decrease noise when the noise is already in the sound rendered by SC-VA .
I cannot explain it more clearly either, so I feel we have to give up...
@Edit: If the noise is not there when you increase the gain in Audacity by either +12 or +24 dB (you only hear noise in the original quiet recording) then the problem is your audio hardware/driver There is no other explanation. And then the noise is really not "there" even in the original recording.
Last edited by Falcosoft on 2019-3-27 @ 22:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby EmperorGrieferus » 2019-3-27 @ 22:44

Falcosoft wrote:I see. If you add 12 dB gain to the upper sample by using 'Effect->Amplify' in your Audacity then you should get exactly the same result that SimpleGainVST would do when gain is set to 12 dB. That is the whole signal strengthened by 12 dB together with noise... +24 dB would also strengthen the whole signal further but also the noise proportionally. Increasing gain cannot help decreasing noise if the noise is already in the recording.
The same is true for the real time gain effect of the gain plugin. It cannot decrease noise if the noise is already in the sound rendered by SC-VA .
I cannot explain it more clearly either, so I feel we have to give up...

Third screenshot (Where amplify is 17) shows that sample DON'T have noises. It's problems of recording. Not the synthesizer. And I will not give up until I see that changing the maximum value of the gain range to 24 dB in Simple Gain VST make samples remains with noises.
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby Falcosoft » 2019-3-27 @ 22:57

Once again:
If the noise is not there when you increase the gain in Audacity by either +12 or +24 dB (you only hear noise in the original quiet recording) then the problem is your audio hardware/driver. There is no other explanation. And then the noise is really not "there" even in the original recording.
Third screenshot (Where amplify is 17) shows that sample DON'T have noises. It's problems of recording.

This above sentence is without any sense. The samples ARE the recording. If the samples do not contain noise then the recording cannot be the problem. The only possible explanation is then that the problem is your audio gear during playback.
Please, do not attach more pictures but audio samples instead.
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby EmperorGrieferus » 2019-3-27 @ 23:01

Falcosoft wrote:Once again:
If the noise is not there when you increase the gain in Audacity by either +12 or +24 dB (you only hear noise in the original quiet recording) then the problem is your audio hardware/driver. There is no other explanation. And then the noise is really not "there" even in the original recording.
Third screenshot (Where amplify is 17) shows that sample DON'T have noises. It's problems of recording.

This above sentence is without any sense. The samples ARE the recording. If the samples do not contain noise then the recording cannot be the problem. The only possible explanation is then that the problem is your audio gear during playback.
Please, do not attach more pictures but audio samples instead.

If you will just listen that samples, you will not hear that noises, because they're silent. But in lower tones noises shows themselves.
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby Falcosoft » 2019-3-27 @ 23:33

This whole conversation started to be completely nonsensical. Let's start it again.
Please, answer these simple questions:
1. What happens when you listen to SC-VA real time without any gain effect? Do you hear any noise you mentioned? (It's important since you mentioned the problem is not with the synth.)
2. If you record the sound of SC-VA also without any gain effect do you hear any difference between the recording and the real time sound? If yes, please attach the problematic recording.
3. When you record the sound of SC-VA with gain effect (e.g. +12 dB) is this recording different in any way from the original recording amplified by Audacity also by +12dB ?
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby Roland User » 2019-3-27 @ 23:38

EmperorGrieferus
I understand you , but Falcosoft) right , you can hear noise if you have one of two :
1) you use old resampler which include in Windows 7 , if so , result will be not good and to nearer bad )
2) you have low velocity level in MIDI file , if so , simle increase velocity and noise will disappear )

As to you want , you need noise reduction after increase volume level , in real-time usually this work bad
Last edited by Roland User on 2019-3-27 @ 23:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby EmperorGrieferus » 2019-3-27 @ 23:44

Roland User wrote:EmperorGrieferus
I understand you , but Falcosoft right ) , you can hear noise if you have one of two :
1) you use old resampler which include in Windows 7 , if so , result will be not good and to nearer bad )
2) you have low velocity level in MIDI file , if so , simle increase velocity and noise will disappear )

As to you want , you need noise reduction after increase volume level

Noise reduction doesn't work. Nothing more.
2. I'm just clicking on the key when recording sample. Nothing more.
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby Roland User » 2019-3-27 @ 23:49

But ,as you want reduction noise if you sayd what level low ? With low level signal and amplifing this signal , will be amplifed all , not only useful sound.
The only way increase key press velocity level in MIDI file. Thereby increase volume MIDI file.
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby EmperorGrieferus » 2019-3-27 @ 23:53

Roland User wrote:But ,as you want reduction noise if you sayd what level low ? With low level signal and amplifing this signal , will be amplifed all , not only useful sound.
The only way increase key press velocity level in MIDI file.

Velocity level is on maximum. It doesn't help.
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby Falcosoft » 2019-3-27 @ 23:59

Answer my previous 3 questions before expecting further help
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby Roland User » 2019-3-28 @ 00:00

EmperorGrieferus
Please , Upload example for we can understand what not so )
For compress you can use this https://yadi.sk/d/REsUrPOP54cC2A
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby EmperorGrieferus » 2019-3-28 @ 00:12

Falcosoft wrote:This whole conversation started to be completely nonsensical. Let's start it again.
Please, answer these simple questions:
1. What happens when you listen to SC-VA real time without any gain effect? Do you hear any noise you mentioned? (It's important since you mentioned the problem is not with the synth.)
2. If you record the sound of SC-VA also without any gain effect do you hear any difference between the recording and the real time sound? If yes, please attach the problematic recording.
3. When you record the sound of SC-VA with gain effect (e.g. +12 dB) is this recording different in any way from the original recording amplified by Audacity also by +12dB ?

1. There was no noises, because in that time I was too stupid to lay out Rock Organ/Accordion/Bandoneon/French Horn/Square Wave/Saw Wave/Bass & Lead/Synth Bass 2 on the easier samples to be more truthful in stereo sounding.
2. No. There's no differense (Except in real time sound little bit more silent).
3. Yes. Because then I will get sample with distortion.
I will make my quotes easier: the noises problem has began when I began laying out instruments into easier samples, because source samples are too silent to be noiseless.
The noise problem itself: https://drive.google.com/open?id=17LOzr ... rbqJXhRN3v
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Re: Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

Postby Falcosoft » 2019-3-28 @ 00:44

3. Yes. Because then I will get sample with distortion

Then you must be doing something wrong in Audacity since the original 0 dB gain recording amplified by Audacity by +12dB should give the same result as recording with Simple Gain VSTi by +12dB.
Also you should only hear distortion/clipping when you use integer formats. 32-bit floating point data should never clip/distort.
I have noticed that you use 44100 Hz sample rate in Audacity. Maybe you also used this sample rate when recording SC-VA sounds. This is a bad choice. The native sample rate of SC-VA is 32000 Hz. There is no problem free conversion between 32000 and 44100 Hz. So you should set the sample rate of Midi Player before recording to 32000 Hz. But even 48000 Hz is a better choice. Also in Audacity you should also use 32000 or 48000 Hz for your project and select 32-bit float format everywhere (quality and output settings). Also select Windows WASAPI as output device instead of MME. And also make sure in your Windows audio playback device's control panel the Default Format is set to 48000 Hz.
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