VOGONS


Reply 141 of 341, by EmperorGrieferus

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KainXVIII wrote on 2024-04-11, 16:08:
EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-04-11, 15:37:

Okay, so, apparently, Koreans are REALLY interested in Nuked-SC55.

How so?

I tried to find some videos about Nuked-SC55, and most of them were from Korean channels.

Reply 142 of 341, by RetroGamer4Ever

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Koreans would be part of the JRPG audience, so I guess that's why. Back in the day, Koreans couldn't get JRPGs or Japanese games in general, due to national law against Japanese media materials and products, so the Koreans had to do their own copy/paste versions of the games, with the Japanese visual elements removed/changed.

Reply 143 of 341, by KainXVIII

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EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-04-11, 16:57:
KainXVIII wrote on 2024-04-11, 16:08:
EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-04-11, 15:37:

Okay, so, apparently, Koreans are REALLY interested in Nuked-SC55.

How so?

I tried to find some videos about Nuked-SC55, and most of them were from Korean channels.

Thanks, that's interesting situation 😁

Reply 144 of 341, by markanini

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zaphod77 wrote on 2024-04-08, 23:25:

rap-10 is equal to sc-7, which is a gm only cut down sound canvas.

so it uses sc-55 samples, but is missing the GS variations.

Given that I think RAP-10 is correct for Lee Jacksons early work on DN3D, which comprises that which was in the shareware version, basically two levels in episode 1 and the main theme, with SC-55 as an acceptable alternative to RAP-10. For episode 2-3 the SC88 sounds more correct on Lee Jacksons work because there you can hear that he for instance programmed filter sweeps that come through much more clearly on the SC-88(Gloomy), and generally the SC-88 samples are a better fit for the ambient vibe. Of course for all of Bobby Princes work they will be rendered correctly on the SC-55, that was what he had used.

Hear for your self:
https://youtu.be/qnbHsqnND08?si=mRFSqos41wMSefsq&t=2526
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf33IOzWclQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDvEEWeGyQU

Reply 145 of 341, by basic

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KainXVIII wrote on 2024-04-11, 18:19:
EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-04-11, 16:57:
KainXVIII wrote on 2024-04-11, 16:08:

How so?

I tried to find some videos about Nuked-SC55, and most of them were from Korean channels.

Thanks, that's interesting situation 😁

I thought they longed flawless SC-55 emulator with MS-DOS games using GM/GS, and me too.

Reply 146 of 341, by EmperorGrieferus

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basic wrote on 2024-04-12, 02:46:
KainXVIII wrote on 2024-04-11, 18:19:
EmperorGrieferus wrote on 2024-04-11, 16:57:

I tried to find some videos about Nuked-SC55, and most of them were from Korean channels.

Thanks, that's interesting situation 😁

I thought they longed flawless SC-55 emulator with MS-DOS games using GM/GS, and me too.

All of us did.

Reply 147 of 341, by leileilol

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The Pi5 test was to debunk the current practicality of Nuked-SC55 on the pi by trying the most powerful/current model. I have no personal desire to use it piped through one. Since a Pi 5 struggles (even against my initial guestpectations), I'd find it fruitless on anything lower. (also honest props to Nuked for choosing a non-commercial license)

RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2024-04-11, 17:57:

Koreans would be part of the JRPG audience, so I guess that's why. Back in the day, Koreans couldn't get JRPGs or Japanese games in general, due to national law against Japanese media materials and products, so the Koreans had to do their own copy/paste versions of the games, with the Japanese visual elements removed/changed.

South Korea were about shmups, beatemups and platformers, and Samsung / LG did license some japanese games for release on PC there, some even platform exclusive....

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Reply 148 of 341, by Xenon 2

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markanini wrote on 2024-04-11, 22:34:
Given that I think RAP-10 is correct for Lee Jacksons early work on DN3D, which comprises that which was in the shareware versio […]
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zaphod77 wrote on 2024-04-08, 23:25:

rap-10 is equal to sc-7, which is a gm only cut down sound canvas.

so it uses sc-55 samples, but is missing the GS variations.

Given that I think RAP-10 is correct for Lee Jacksons early work on DN3D, which comprises that which was in the shareware version, basically two levels in episode 1 and the main theme, with SC-55 as an acceptable alternative to RAP-10. For episode 2-3 the SC88 sounds more correct on Lee Jacksons work because there you can hear that he for instance programmed filter sweeps that come through much more clearly on the SC-88(Gloomy), and generally the SC-88 samples are a better fit for the ambient vibe. Of course for all of Bobby Princes work they will be rendered correctly on the SC-55, that was what he had used.

Hear for your self:
https://youtu.be/qnbHsqnND08?si=mRFSqos41wMSefsq&t=2526
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf33IOzWclQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDvEEWeGyQU

There are 3 MIDI musics from Duke Nukem 3D composed by Bobby Prince, using NRPN (Non Registered Parameter Number) messages, allowing some cool and unique effects, by altering the pitch coarse of the drum instruments :

- WATRWLD1.MID : this is the music played in the "Toxic Dump" map (E1L4), where you start in a wrecked submarine being flooded by water ... here the music suits the map very well, thanks to the NRPN which makes the drum instrument being played 'slowly', in a similar way than how you hear sounds in real life, when you are underwater.

- ALIENZ.MID : in this music, played in the "Lunar Reactor" map (E2L7), the NRPN does the opposite to the previous music ... here the drum instrument is rather 'quick'.

- INVADER.MID : in the "Movie Set" map (E3L5), you'll hear the NRPN altered drum instrument, from time to time (the first one being heard after the 30 first seconds) ... the drum instrument is played 'slowly', in a rather similar way than WATRWLD1.MID

Here are recordings of these 3 musics played with a Roland Sound Canvas SC-55, SC-88 and the 20th Anniversary World Tour version, allowing to compare them :

Recordings links for WATRWLD1.MID played in the "Toxic Dump" map (E1L4) :

- Roland Sound Canvas SC-55 version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h99fXCFpNYE (or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUt5iN_ENPo )
- Roland Sound Canvas SC-88 version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDvEEWeGyQU&t=893s
- 20th Anniversary World Tour version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EVhdhxuGFc

Recordings links for ALIENZ.MID played in the "Lunar Reactor" map (E2L7) :

- Roland Sound Canvas SC-55 version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJtKTQkB_Ic (or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4nFSIZED4Y )
- Roland Sound Canvas SC-88 version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDvEEWeGyQU&t=3506s
- 20th Anniversary World Tour version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQvhc0fVkOI

Recordings links for INVADER.MID played in the "Movie Set" map (E3L5) :

- Roland Sound Canvas SC-55 version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxHffgdfp58
- Roland Sound Canvas SC-88 version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDvEEWeGyQU&t=5580s
- 20th Anniversary World Tour version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fvTDAbTNqk

However, in the SC-88 recordings for these 3 musics, are the NRPN messages disabled, resulting in the drum instruments being played in a standard way, or is it just that the SC-88 doesn't sound like the SC-55 for the pitch coarse NRPN messages ?

Also, in the 20th Anniversary World Tour recordings for these 3 musics, the drum instruments seem to be altered, but unfortunately, they don't sound in a similar/faithful way than the SC-55 versions, and I've always been disappointed by these 20th Anniversary World Tour musics, especially by the one played in the "Toxic Dump" map (E1L4), since it doesn't have that "underwater feeling" anymore.

Reply 149 of 341, by markanini

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Xenon 2 wrote on 2024-04-13, 15:40:
markanini wrote on 2024-04-11, 22:34:
Given that I think RAP-10 is correct for Lee Jacksons early work on DN3D, which comprises that which was in the shareware versio […]
Show full quote
zaphod77 wrote on 2024-04-08, 23:25:

rap-10 is equal to sc-7, which is a gm only cut down sound canvas.

so it uses sc-55 samples, but is missing the GS variations.

Given that I think RAP-10 is correct for Lee Jacksons early work on DN3D, which comprises that which was in the shareware version, basically two levels in episode 1 and the main theme, with SC-55 as an acceptable alternative to RAP-10. For episode 2-3 the SC88 sounds more correct on Lee Jacksons work because there you can hear that he for instance programmed filter sweeps that come through much more clearly on the SC-88(Gloomy), and generally the SC-88 samples are a better fit for the ambient vibe. Of course for all of Bobby Princes work they will be rendered correctly on the SC-55, that was what he had used.

Hear for your self:
https://youtu.be/qnbHsqnND08?si=mRFSqos41wMSefsq&t=2526
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf33IOzWclQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDvEEWeGyQU

- WATRWLD1.MID : this is the music played in the "Toxic Dump" map (E1L4), where you start in a wrecked submarine being flooded by water ... here the music suits the map very well, thanks to the NRPN which makes the drum instrument being played 'slowly', in a similar way than how you hear sounds in real life, when you are underwater.

I can totally hear how SC-88 ruins the downtuned drum sound that starts at 0:07

Reply 150 of 341, by jcarvalho

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Hi guys! I dont know if I am asking an weird question but could this solution be ported to lets say a Pi 2W , a big OLED screen, some adapter to connect to joystick port and an nice 3d printed case to make a "real" SC-55 for those that cant afford the real thing?

Reply 151 of 341, by Eivind

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jcarvalho wrote on 2024-04-15, 11:09:

Hi guys! I dont know if I am asking an weird question but could this solution be ported to lets say a Pi 2W , a big OLED screen, some adapter to connect to joystick port and an nice 3d printed case to make a "real" SC-55 for those that cant afford the real thing?

I asked the same thing a few posts back. Answer for now is: no. The emulator currently uses way too much CPU for any of the Raspberry Pis to handle.
I'm playing around with the source code to learn how it works and see if there's room for optimizations. I've currently made it around 15% faster (on my machine, at least) by reducing conditionals, applying lookup tables, etc.
But we're still far away atm, unfortunately.

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Reply 152 of 341, by jcarvalho

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Eivind wrote on 2024-04-15, 11:13:
I asked the same thing a few posts back. Answer for now is: no. The emulator currently uses way too much CPU for any of the Rasp […]
Show full quote
jcarvalho wrote on 2024-04-15, 11:09:

Hi guys! I dont know if I am asking an weird question but could this solution be ported to lets say a Pi 2W , a big OLED screen, some adapter to connect to joystick port and an nice 3d printed case to make a "real" SC-55 for those that cant afford the real thing?

I asked the same thing a few posts back. Answer for now is: no. The emulator currently uses way too much CPU for any of the Raspberry Pis to handle.
I'm playing around with the source code to learn how it works and see if there's room for optimizations. I've currently made it around 15% faster (on my machine, at least) by reducing conditionals, applying lookup tables, etc.
But we're still far away atm, unfortunately.

Hi! Thanks for the quick answer! I am so sorry, I didnt read all the thread and I missed that, all my fault. This seems like a really nice project!

Reply 153 of 341, by RetroGamer4Ever

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jcarvalho wrote on 2024-04-15, 11:09:

Hi guys! I dont know if I am asking an weird question but could this solution be ported to lets say a Pi 2W , a big OLED screen, some adapter to connect to joystick port and an nice 3d printed case to make a "real" SC-55 for those that cant afford the real thing?

If there is sufficient demand for such a thing, there is an option for making "a real sc-55" with with the DREAM hardware, but it could likely cost enough to be deemed "expensive", if you want all the bells and whistles.

Reply 154 of 341, by Falcosoft

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RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2024-04-15, 12:06:
jcarvalho wrote on 2024-04-15, 11:09:

Hi guys! I dont know if I am asking an weird question but could this solution be ported to lets say a Pi 2W , a big OLED screen, some adapter to connect to joystick port and an nice 3d printed case to make a "real" SC-55 for those that cant afford the real thing?

If there is sufficient demand for such a thing, there is an option for making "a real sc-55" with with the DREAM hardware, but it could likely cost enough to be deemed "expensive", if you want all the bells and whistles.

I do not think that you can get closer to SC-55 'emulation' with DREAM hardware than the current line-up of DreamBlaster products from Serdaco (with the GS suffix).
The specific feature of Nuked-SC55 is to emulate the original hardware so it works just like the original. That's why it works so good compared to previous attempts.
DREAM hardware is not FPGA-like that you can program freely to work like an SC-55.

Last edited by Falcosoft on 2024-04-15, 12:25. Edited 2 times in total.

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Reply 155 of 341, by Eivind

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Falcosoft wrote on 2024-04-15, 12:18:
I do not think that you can get closer to SC-55 'emulation' with DREAM hardware than the current line-up of DreamBlaster product […]
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RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2024-04-15, 12:06:
jcarvalho wrote on 2024-04-15, 11:09:

Hi guys! I dont know if I am asking an weird question but could this solution be ported to lets say a Pi 2W , a big OLED screen, some adapter to connect to joystick port and an nice 3d printed case to make a "real" SC-55 for those that cant afford the real thing?

If there is sufficient demand for such a thing, there is an option for making "a real sc-55" with with the DREAM hardware, but it could likely cost enough to be deemed "expensive", if you want all the bells and whistles.

I do not think that you can get closer to SC-55 'emulation' with DREAM hardware than the current line-up of DreamBlaster products from Serdaco (with the GS suffix).
The specific feature of Nuked-SC55 is to emulate the original hardware so it works just like the original. That's why it works so good compared to previous attempts.
DREAM hardware is not an FPGA that you can program freely to work like an SC-55.

^ this!
@jcarvalho if you want the cheapest external solution, use a Pi Zero 2 running mt32-pi with one of the better soundfonts. Very close to the Dream-based wavetable boards, IMHO. Of course, you won't get the buttons and LCD of the SC-55 this way.

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Reply 156 of 341, by mattw

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Eivind wrote on 2024-04-15, 12:22:

the cheapest external solution, use a Pi Zero 2

no, the cheapest is to get any x86 Thin Client with sufficiently powerful AMD SoC like Futro S920, HP T620 (or Wyse, but they are rarer and usually more expensive), but I see both S920 and T620 for 15 EUR at the time of writing this (HP being cheaper as in that price it includes even the Power Adapter) and not only they are cheap, but they can run any SoftSynth you want. if you want screen - then for another 10-15 EUR you can go real fancy with 8" to 12" touchscreen from PoS terminal (for example Nixdorf brand model BA72A , at the time of writing, it's 14 EUR). also, all that put together is about the same size as real unit like MT-32/SC-55, etc. so, even as size is more appropriate.

Reply 157 of 341, by markanini

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Can anyone guide on how to handle the two main quirks of mkII rom? If I'm not wrong one is related to battery detection causing pitch change, the second one is missing sounds cased by sound mapping discrepancies aka capital tone fallback.
I've seen seen GS reset proposed as a solution for both issue: Q, hold U and press Q, W.

The question is when is a good time to use the reset operation?

Reply 158 of 341, by EmperorGrieferus

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markanini wrote on 2024-04-15, 14:39:

Can anyone guide on how to handle the two main quirks of mkII rom? If I'm not wrong one is related to battery detection causing pitch change, the second one is missing sounds cased by sound mapping discrepancies aka capital tone fallback.
I've seen seen GS reset proposed as a solution for both issue: Q, hold U and press Q, W.

The question is when is a good time to use the reset operation?

Right after the NukedSC played its intro animation.

Reply 159 of 341, by Falcosoft

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markanini wrote on 2024-04-15, 14:39:

Can anyone guide on how to handle the two main quirks of mkII rom? If I'm not wrong one is related to battery detection causing pitch change, the second one is missing sounds cased by sound mapping discrepancies aka capital tone fallback.
I've seen seen GS reset proposed as a solution for both issue: Q, hold U and press Q, W.

The question is when is a good time to use the reset operation?

1. It's enough the send a GM or GS Reset SysEx to cure pitch issue. If you use FSMP or Van Baso you can set them to send resets every time a new title is played.
2. The above key combo reset / GS reset cannot cure capital tone fallback related problems.
2a. To cure capital tone fallback related problems the simplest way is to send a GM reset. This way all bank select messages are ignored by mkII. But this way you actually disable all variation tones.
2b. The more sophisicated method that does not disable all variation tones is to use FSMP and its software Capital Tone Fallback feature:
You should click Main menu -> Instruments -> Custom Patch definitions and select Roland SCVA -> 'Roland SCVA-55' for melodic and 'Roland SCVA-55 Drumsets' for drum channels. Then you should also enable 'Use Patch info for Capital Tone Fallback' option.

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Last edited by Falcosoft on 2024-04-15, 18:22. Edited 1 time in total.

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