VOGONS


First post, by rkurbatov

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My first PC was Am486DX4-100 that was bought in 1997 - very interesting time, when you could choose from several generations of PC being very different. The friend of mine was happy to play Dune II on his 286, retired from some office, another friend of mine did his university labs on 8086 and third friend of mine (very rich one, I suppose) was playing games on Pentium MMX while PII was on horizon.

So my PC was quasi-Pentium, based on Sis496 chip with PCI slots, probably even supporting EDO memory, with notebook HDD put to it for some reason (I knew that much later, because I was afraid to open it for several years 😀). I missed the VLB stuff completely, like SCSI and SIMM modules, all my adapters were Plug and Play so I wanted to play with something more 486ish when I planned this build initially.

I wanted to build classic 486 DX2 66MHz on VLB motherboard. And this journey turned into pain and still too far from resolution 😀

It's not interesting to get something prebuilt (though I payed probably twice or triple from that price already - enough to buy a new average machine), so I started hunting for parts last year, long before the war.

The motherboard is ECS UMV486V AIO
mainboard-elitegroup-ecs-um486v-aio-60b4c4c0d230d627346309.jpg

Seems not damaged because of external battery. I had to add one created from CR2032 holder and PC Speaker connector.

There was a problem with RAM modules when I was trying to install 8x1MB. I tried 3 chip modules in two sets, absolutely the same, but motherboard saw only 4MB of RAM for some reason. Like I install each of set independently and see 4MB and install them both - and again, see 4MB. The problem solved when I took another set of 1MB modules (with 9 chips) but later I found 8x4MB modules so now I have 32MB in total. I would have killed for such amount a memory back those days - I had only 8MB - barely enough to use WIndows 95.

Also need to check how turbo implemented on it. The mobo is not extendable, DX4-100 will not work in it, as it supports 5V CPUs only. I'll need a voltage regulator. There are known problems with WB cache and non-working motherboard cache in case AM5x86 CPUs are used. Pentium Overdrive is to rare (and I'm going to build pure Pentium build anyway).

I put motherboard in horizontal desktop case:
file.php?mode=view&id=144149

Nothing remarkable about it, I just wanted it to be non-tower one. Still don't know what S/B button does.

The videoadapter is Trident TGUI9440AGi
568_ky2-jax-tvga94vl_top_hq.jpg

It was 1MB initially, but I managed to find memory chips so now it's 2MB.

There is a problem with it I noticed recently, when started working on build on a regular basis. When I turn the PC on, I can have broken image in text mode, like lots of garbage in video memory. Usually, when I turn it off and on again, the problem disappears. I will try running it on 1MB of original memory and see if it helps. I have two spare modules to replace. Or maybe it's something related to capacitors, I don't know.

The motherboard has almost everything on it - two COM ports, LPT, gameport and FDC/IDE controller so I don't need a multicard.

The soundcard is ProAudio Spectrum 16. All I knew about it before - it's the strange name I saw in games setup program 😀
My card is with LMSI controller on board, this exact one:
81168b2e2d6c28efbac6174b0b29a5d1.jpg

$40 in prices before war 😀 Probably, only few are in Ukraine, only GUS is more rare one.

The network card is 3COM EtherLink III:
file.php?mode=view&id=144152

A good source of EPROM for XT-IDE Bios, has to be configured via the special tool to make XT-IDE work as it doesn't have jumpers.

XT-IDE is veeery convenient thing (and not only for IDE drives). I have two floppies - 5.25 and 3.5 - and due to the case shape the only way to connect them is when 5.25 becomes the drive A. And DOS boots only from drive A.

I wanted to make my own cable and bought everything for it but eventually found the cable of required lenght in one of the cases I bought recently. There are several solutions for my problem:
1. Twist the cable again close to the FDC end (I will probably do that when will create custom cable, don't want to do something with existing one)
2. Make an adapter with a twist (I need the male 40 pin connector for that, too problematic)
3. Install XT-IDE that allows drive swapping on old BIOSes - that's what I did.

The harddrive was the real pain, the most problematic part.

I could have used the CF-adapter, but I wanted the real hard drive so wanted to play with SCSI. I was hunting for the VLB SCSI for a long time, until found the Adaptec2842A:
raw.jpg

First, I spent a day trying to make it run at all. The problem was in a small jumper enabling the WB-cache (the motherboard doesn't support it).
Second, I tried to add support for larger hard drives. I used 18GB SCSI (68 pin via 68 to 50 pin adapter). There was an Adaptec BIOS patch by mkarcher (thanks him a lot), but I had different BIOS version so had to make my own patch with offsets of my BIOS based on his work.
And when I had all of it working and partitioned my hard drive it died 🙁 The problem with SCSI is that there are many hard drives with SCA-80 interfaces, even the new ones, of size 73GB or more that don't work on old 50-pin adapters. The simply don't have narrow/wide switch so SCA-80 to 50 pin adapters simply don't work. I bought 2 18GB drive with HD68 - one was dead initially and another one died few days ago - the motor tries to start and squeaks, though adapter detects the hard drive. The same was with 9GB drives.

The optical drive is period correct 6x CDROM Toshiba XM-6002. I managed to find drivers (all CD ROMs with speed up to 16x are very hard to make them work, they all require specific drivers, common ones simply don't work - sometimes every model has its own driver) but it had mechanical problems. I fixed mechanical problems by applying grease - it stopped to be recognized by the system. I need to check now whether it's IDE cable problem, drive or controller - HDC behaves quite strange on this motherboard.

So my initial plan to assemble everything during this short vacation wasn't completed. The battle rages on.

Anyway, it's interesting journey! I learnt how to program chips, knew a lot about their difference and how device BIOSes work. Experimented with different SCSI adaptors. Hope I will play Lotus III till the end of the year on my new old machine 😀

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486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300

Reply 1 of 16, by rkurbatov

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Btw, just noticed that memory modules on motherboard picture (it's not mine, didn't want to make photo as better ones can be easily found) are put in the same way as I put them - 4 3-chip modules and 4 9-chip modules. It can be coincidence as the user had only these modules or the same problem of having only half of memory visible if all modules are 3-chip ones. My current setup is 8 9-chip modules (of 4MB each) so I see all the memory. Just a hint for somebody who has the same motherboard and same problems.

486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300

Reply 2 of 16, by pshipkov

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Good backround story. Many of us here will relate to it.

This class ECS motherboards look good but are not functionaly great. Speaking from personal experience with few of them.
The situation you sounds familiar. Hey, i am going to assemble retro PC over the weekend - should be quick ... NOPE.
Especially the SCSI stuff - always more trouble than it looks.

Otherwise i like where this is going - casual pc - a replica of an average computer from the mid 90ies.
Charming.

retro bits and bytes

Reply 3 of 16, by rkurbatov

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I was going to make several builds actually - 386, 486, Pentium, Pentium 2/3 and out of a sudden - Pentium 4 - but that deserves its own story 😀. So I spent a whole week juggling all of that stuff and now I have tons of boxes, cards, modules, screws and wires all around and none of working machines 🙁

And as for typical PC - probably, if not to mention SCSI drive and huge amount of memory.

I have 386 ECS motherboard that I'm currently working on - it is much less problematic. But all it has is just a CPU socket, bios, cache and 8 ISA slots. I would probably replaced 486 though I like it. But VLBs are pretty rare guests here and ones I've seen are even worse.

486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300

Reply 4 of 16, by H3nrik V!

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The "S/B" button could be a Stand By function for motherboards supporting that feature?

Please use the "quote" option if asking questions to what I write - it will really up the chances of me noticing 😀

Reply 5 of 16, by PC-Engineer

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Your story is typical for the systems of that time (apart from SCSI). Plug in and run came much later with Windows XP. For the early 90s, it's always good to have a replacement to try. In the end, the journey is often the destination of the adventure.

I also like your choice of components: 486 DX2/66 CPU, Desktop case, Trident TGUI9440 graphics card, PAS16 sound card, SCSI subsystem. However, instead of the IDE CD drive, I would go with one with SCSI. You only need the Adaptec driver (ASPICD.SYS) and no specific driver for the drive.

I also have a DX2/66 PC, which for me is the typical 486 - that is, the 486 of the 486s. I also have an iDX4 Overdrive (Intel called this iDX4 and not 486DX4) and a POD in the drawer, but the DX2/66 is more 486 experience. Everything that needs more power as a DX2/66 you can do better with a Pentium.

Finding working SCSI disks is indeed difficult, as many SCSI disks in professional use have been tortured in continuous use, especially the SCA drives. Sometimes you can still get NOS spare parts with SCA. Or search for special types of the 2GB-9GB class (50 and 68pin). I have good experiences with IBM (DCHS, DCAS, DNES) and Seagate (Barracuda, Hawk, Elite). Avoid Quantum drives up to 1996 and used SCA drives. Finding a good, intact disk is the most difficult challenge today with SCSI.
All in all SCSI is a very reliable system with many possibilities (e.g. external drives, JAZ, ZIP, MO drives, etc.) and less hassle and CPU load than IDE. If you follow the rules of termination and cable lengths and qualities.
I use SCSI in most of my systems. My first system without parallel SCSI is my S939 with a SAS RAID and SATA drives.

Epox 7KXA Slot A / Athlon 950MHz / Voodoo 5 5500 / PowerVR / 512 MB / AWE32 / SCSI - Windows 98SE

Reply 6 of 16, by rkurbatov

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PC-Engineer, thanks.

SCSI CD-ROM is very rare guest here. And the best choice to me would be to buy the LMSI drive that is supported by PAS16 card but they are expensive as hell and even more rare. I tried 6x IDE and that's the best choice I could possibly find.

I like typical builds of a time - not very early ones and not the combines like VIP motherboards. And though I had Am486DX4 it always was poor man's Pentium.

As for SCSI drives... yes, I try SCA2 drives from spare parts, but they work only with SCA2 to 68 pin adapters to me.
As I understand, SCA2 to 50 pin either not work at all, or I need the drives of lesser capacity. There are problems with termination of unused contacts (and bus width on such drives that cannot be set).

486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300

Reply 7 of 16, by rkurbatov

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H3nrik V! wrote on 2022-08-27, 20:53:

The "S/B" button could be a Stand By function for motherboards supporting that feature?

Is it something from early Pentiums? There was an Asus Pentium board in it with Green PC connector - probably that's it.

But Pentium motherboard will go to the tower case eventually, I want desktop case for my 486.

486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300

Reply 8 of 16, by PC-Engineer

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You need an adapter that terminates the upper 8Bit of the wide bus correctly (Picture 1 +2). Mostly it works without, but without termination there are refexions on the data lines, which some drives can handle and others not. Most SCA adapters (Picture 3) have no termination. The SCA drives have no jumper for SCSI ID and spin-on behavior, this jumpers are delivered by the adapter. At the end of the cable there must also be a termination (Picture 4) in any case. SCA drives and SCA-adapters do not have this!

So first try to get an internal SCSI terminator, like in Picture 4 and put it at the end of your SCSI cable.
As an option: most drives with 50pin (narrow SCSI) have the option for termination built into the drive. I.e. if you get a SCSI CD-ROM (narrow SCSI), you attach it to the end of the SCSI cable and activate its termination.

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Epox 7KXA Slot A / Athlon 950MHz / Voodoo 5 5500 / PowerVR / 512 MB / AWE32 / SCSI - Windows 98SE

Reply 9 of 16, by rkurbatov

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PC-Engineer. Thank you for detailed explanation. I will try playing with a little bit modern hard drives.

486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300

Reply 10 of 16, by rkurbatov

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Surprisingly, one of the Cheetah's, 9Gb, 10K is working and even without the terminator. Formatting and surface test went well. Another one is dead.

But hell, how hot and lout it is. I afraid to put it into the case under the PSU.

I ordered two more 9G drives by IBM, also with SCA2, but they are 7200RPM so should be much more quite.

486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300

Reply 11 of 16, by rkurbatov

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Today I threw in thrash bin all my bad SCSI drives. 3x73G, 2x18G, 2x9G, 1x36G. There were 2x4.3G last year. So 10 in total. Either media errors or broken motor - I hear clicking sound but spindle doesn't start rotation. I have 7 working and tested ones: 7 out of 17,  something like 40% output. Could be worse.

As I thought, IBM at 7200 is much more quite and cold than crazy Cheetah (though pretty loud anyway). I'll use two 5cm coolers and will drill holes in case backplate - that should be enough.

Interesting, that more modern 15K drives are even more quite and colder than old 7200 ones. Standard 10cm cooler on front panel should be enough to cool two 73G drives I'm going to use on my P4 build.

486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300

Reply 12 of 16, by PC-Engineer

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In my experience the 15k drives (NOS) are more quiet than old 7.2k drives. But it can be, that the frequencies over 15k are out of the possibilities of my ears 😉
Do you have a termination at the end of the cable now?

Epox 7KXA Slot A / Athlon 950MHz / Voodoo 5 5500 / PowerVR / 512 MB / AWE32 / SCSI - Windows 98SE

Reply 13 of 16, by rkurbatov

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PC-Engineer, I have only one cable with terminator - it's 68pin. And only one device with builtin terminator - 50 pin streamer. Everything else just works fine (or doesn't work at all on any type of cable in any configuration).

I'm going to use 2 73GB SCA drives with terminated cable and for every other build I don't know what to do. Cables have only two connectors - one for controller and one for device and my 68 pin drives just work, so I'm nto going to do anything.

486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300

Reply 14 of 16, by PC-Engineer

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Termination is mandatory for SCSI to function reliably. Starting from U160 (68pol) a termination at the cable end was usual with SCSI. These cables and terminators are I downward compatible. If you run the drives on this cable, it is perfect.

Epox 7KXA Slot A / Athlon 950MHz / Voodoo 5 5500 / PowerVR / 512 MB / AWE32 / SCSI - Windows 98SE

Reply 15 of 16, by Anonymous Coward

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From what I remember 1X and 2X proprietary CD-ROM drives required specific drivers, but 4X (IDE interface) and faster should mostly all work with the ATAPI driver that comes with 9x. (unless you got one of those weird pre-ATAPI IDE drives).

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 16 of 16, by rkurbatov

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Anonymous Coward wrote on 2022-09-04, 07:07:

From what I remember 1X and 2X proprietary CD-ROM drives required specific drivers, but 4X (IDE interface) and faster should mostly all work with the ATAPI driver that comes with 9x. (unless you got one of those weird pre-ATAPI IDE drives).

I have two toshiba drives - 6x and 8x. And drivers for 8x claim they or NOT for 6x model (or vice versa - don't remember). I'm going to play both today to find out what's wrong with them and wether they are usable. Wanted to have CD drives a little bit closer to the era of both builds - 386 and 486.

Found this nice thing I was hunting for a week:
1e62a43ef53eb25c6fe7710c79f0a9cb.jpg

It will help to cool down my noisy hot SCSI drive. 486 that supposed to have only PSU fan now will have case fan to cool CPU (heatsink is going) and two 40mm fans to cool HDD. I'm thinking about Noctua fans 😁

486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300