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SC8500 sound card - what does it do?

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Reply 20 of 99, by retro games 100

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Amigaz wrote:
elianda wrote:

I am currently at work. I will up a working example config incl. the necessary tools when I am home.
Basically two programs are run, the crystal PnP Init cs4232c.exe (or newer cwdinit.exe) that reads the resources from cwdaudio.ini and loads the crystals firmware. After this 94dinit.exe is run to init the Dream DSP for DOS. No TSR.

Thanks, really appreciate it 😀

Itching to try this card 😁

Hehe, me too! 😀

Reply 21 of 99, by elianda

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ok Utilities needed for DOS:
http://mail.lipsia.de/~enigma/neu/files/maxi64dos.rar
I have put a initm.bat together.
- Open cwdaudio.ini and adjust the resources you wish to have
CDIO and CDInt is Dream and MPU401IO is daughterboard. If you don't use Daughterboard write 'Disabled'
- open initm.bat remove first copy line (you can use this as examples to switch between different resource templates)
- adjust Volumes in the Mixer Setting Line
- adjust paths

For 94dinit you might even write rom as Soundfont, though if you find out how it really loads a 94b file, give me a hint. It seems to read from the given 94b file, but i doubt it loads the whole MBs in this short time.

These are the latest Maxi Sound 64 Utilities. I found it some day in 1998 on the belgian ftp of guillemot.
http://mail.lipsia.de/~enigma/neu/files/Maxi64.EXE

So, does the card give sound?
http://mail.lipsia.de/~enigma/neu/files/HIGHWAY.MID

Reply 22 of 99, by Silent Loon

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elianda wrote:

It does not have the SB Pro mute bug. (...)
On technical level this card is nearly identical as an EWS64XL. Same Dream SAM6407, same Crystal 4236...

I still have the distant hope, that this is no bug at all and that some day a hero comes and solves the problem by using the right mixer-settings, driver version and/or eeprom /pnp configuration...
I have the EWS64XL and I think it has a lot to offer (full range of effects under dos, SBPro compability that sounds better than SB16 a.s.o.). Also a nice feature is the front panel box, with the included waveblaster connector. This would be great - if (for those who do not know) this wavetable (as well as line-in/CDin b.t.w.) is not muted for some strange reason, every time you use it together with the codecs SBPro mode.
Maybe its firmware related? I looked into the driver/application folder, and found the file "cwaudio.bin".
Elianda - do you have this file too for the maxi sound? It seems to be the firmware for the crystal codec (only 8kb), but the ews generally uses its own firmware (ews64_os.bin) and so it does not really make sense (older versions of the drivers don't seem to have have this file).

To retro games 100: Do you have an EWS64? I mean, as you call such simple devices like the Maestro 32/96 and the Guillemot 64 "beasts" *snotty laughter* - what about a real challenge? But beware! You will be all of your own in the dark realm of confusing mixer settings and perfidious configuration software, designed by mad german technicians! 😉

Reply 23 of 99, by elianda

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I have a EWS64XL myself too. I tried to use the EWS64s Dream firmware for the maxisound but it failed, since the maxisound seems to have a smaller firmware flash. (at least the error message suggests this)
The EWS64 software does not work, since it seems to check some IDs. There is no common tool that works on every Dream as far as I know of.
For the Crystal Codec, the maxisound64 version of the firmware is included in maxi64dos.rar. The mute bug is 99% related to the Crystal Codec Config.
Though I think there is no difference in the crystals firmware for both cards (or if it is different, there is no noticeable change).
Please note that the routing for the Dream/Daughterboard is different for MaxiSound and EWS64XL. On MaxiSound64 the Dream is routed to CD-In of the Codec.

Someone knows Kay Bruns? Driver programmer for Terratec and also author of MOD4WIN? I think he could give some hints to this topic.
BTW: MOD4WIN also sees the SAM9407 of the MaxiSound64 as Hardware Wavetable for Tracker Playback.

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Reply 24 of 99, by retro games 100

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Silent Loon wrote:

To retro games 100: Do you have an EWS64? I mean, as you call such simple devices like the Maestro 32/96 and the Guillemot 64 "beasts" *snotty laughter* - what about a real challenge? But beware! You will be all of your own in the dark realm of confusing mixer settings and perfidious configuration software, designed by mad german technicians! 😉

Hehehe!!
I don't have any EWS64 cards. I didn't realise this soundkarte was more of a "beast" than a Maestro 32/96 or Guillemot 64! So, is an EWS64 a type of über-beast? 😉 But seriously, all of this leads me to ask a personal question -

I'm looking for a "beast of a card" which has good quality onboard wavetable ROM, and can provide funky onboard ROM-based wavetable tunes in old DOS games. I'm getting rather confused about how many old sound cards are kicking about on ebay, that I was hoping someone could simply list some of them please.

I can name two which I have tested in the last month or so -

Terratec Maestro 32/96
Yamaha SW20-PC

(Please note: I'm not terribly concerned about cards which have a wavetable header, because so many old cards have this feature.)

Thanks a lot! 😀

Reply 25 of 99, by keropi

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@retro games 100:
IMHO for 99% coverage of DOS sound you need:
1. A SB card (I prefer the SB16 CT-1740)
2. A good-quality General Midi addon (I prefer the DB50XG or DB60XG installed on the sb card)
3. A Roland Midi device for GS ( LAPC-I or CM-32L / MT32 with a good MPU card)
that is my goal when I build my retro-pc's... original SB card, a good GM card and a Roland Device...
My next plan is to use on my 486 a SB PRO 2.0 card + SW60XG (stand-alone ISA db50xg) + LAPC-I ...

disclaimer: all the above are from my humble point of view, my main goal is to have good coverage in sound but with "almost mainstream - common" hardware... sure a GUS can play some stuff better but for me it does not worth the hussle to setup or maybe install patches etc...

Last edited by keropi on 2009-02-13, 13:00. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 26 of 99, by Silent Loon

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The EWS64XL is an good card, when you don't need CD-music while playing dos games and don't care about the limited functionality of the wavetable header. You will need a dual boot or use the DOS of win95/98, as this makes it much easier to set the mixer settings. But when its done, its a great card, because it allows you to use all the effects of the DSP in dos.
On the other hand I don't know if it differs so much from the Guillemot card you allready have.

Another option is the Turtle Beach Tropez Classic, it has an ICS wavetable synth onboard, a real OPL3 and claims to be SBPro compatible.
I like this card, especially in WC Privateer it sounds great. But it's hard to get in europe.

I recently ordered a Miro PCM12, which should be similar to the SW-20 you have. But it didn't arrive yet.

For pure GM/GS/XG sound the SW60XG might be the best option (best sound quality, no noise from the card).

Has someone the Orchid Soundwave32? Said to be the only soundcard that can truely emulate a MT-32 (I doubt that).

@ Elianda:

Who dares to ask him? > http://kay-bruns.de

(...ehm, better don't mention my silly "mad german technician" comments...)

There is still dos audio freeware available via his site (great!): http://kay-bruns.de/freeware/index.html

Look at the GUSPnp eeprom config tool! Looks very similar to the one used for the EWS64.

Reply 27 of 99, by elianda

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Regarding DOS the difference between MaxiSound64 and EWS64XL is:
MaxiSound 64 has a 4 MB ROM Wavetable, I don't know a tool to load a SF from plain DOS
EWS64XL has 2 MB RAM onboard + PS/2 SIMM Upgrade capacity, you have to load a SF in DOS.
There is a init program for DOS for EWS64XL that allows to load a single SF (in Win you can load more than one).
f.e. if you load the MaxiSound64s ROMs SF into the EWS64XL both cards will sound more or less identical.
EWS64XL has the SB Pro mutes Daughterboard bug

Both cards reach their full potential under Win9x or NT4 as most of the late ISA cards do. Overall DOS feature support is better than on AWE32.

Comparisons show, that a disadvantage of the Dream DSP is a weak Reverb, on the other hand it has 64 voices polyphony. (check f.e. XWING Intro)
Also different loadable soundfonts give some versatility in the taste of music playback.

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Reply 29 of 99, by elianda

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The EWS64 program is an all-in-one tool that does PnP-Init, Firmware loading, Soundfont Loading and setting Mixer (incl. EWS64 Routing).
Since the PnP-Init already doesn't find a EWS64 it fails.

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Reply 30 of 99, by gerwin

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I found this site:
http://ftp.guillemot.com/old%20sound/old%20exe
and looked around a bit.
There was this file dospnp.zip with a utility called 94DINIT.exe, it seems to mention a soundbank to load. But I cannot verify this.

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Reply 31 of 99, by elianda

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Wow interesting that they put the stuff up again years later 😜
94dinit.exe is the tool I mentioned earlier. Though it seems to read from the file given, but not everything. It is done quite fast and I can't imagine transferring ~10 MB from a hdd in this time.

I downloaded the whole ftp, since also the other drivers for dream based cards might have some additional resources like soundfonts...

So looking over the files I found an interesting SFX archive: Win2kCrystalDriver.exe from October 2000.

There was no Win2K driver for the Maxi Sound 64 Home Studio. My hack in the days was first booting DOS, initializing the MaxiSound and Dream and then reboot using QEMMs Quickboot feature. Then I chose Win2K from the ntloaders menu. In Win2K I had the Crystal WDM driver installed and added a MPU-401 at the Dreams port. Tricky but it worked.

Now the driver in the SFX looks like a hacked Win2K driver from the Maxi Sound 64 Home Studio Pro card series that uses instead of the Crystal an ESS codec. They removed the ESS part and left the Dream Driver part inside. So installing the Crystal WDM driver (shipped with Win2K) onto the SB/WSS device showing up and then the Dream driver onto the DSP device should work. (I haven't tried it yet)
Even the Maxi Sound 64 Utilities should recognize the Dream then...

Also WinXP32 should be able to load Win2K drivers, so this seems to be some good news.

Reply 32 of 99, by GL1zdA

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5u3 wrote:

He is completely wrong about the "Surround output" however... 🤣

The ESS1868F based Maxi Sound Pro Studio (SC8600 V2.0) has surround output - probably he copied this text from somewhere else without noticing his card is a bit different.

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Reply 33 of 99, by elianda

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Why? The SC8500 features the second output too. Don't mess Surround with 'Dolby Surround'. It is a second Stereo Out where you can position speakers in the back f.e.
On the other hand if you set the different Wave Outs of the card to the different Output connectors you might use some sort of software Dolby Surround decoder.

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Reply 34 of 99, by gerwin

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@eilanda
These Crystal WDM drivers seem generic for every CS4232/35/36/37(b) chip. Some weeks ago I installed my Acer Magic S23 (link) in windows 2000 with the EWS64 WDM drivers. It is all the same, except the display-names of the devices. Of course the Dream synth didn't work, since the card didn't have one.
Then the Dream synths, I think they are very independent from the Crystal chip. They have their own interface to the isa bus, their own MPU-401 hardware. Example Image But their analog out it routed back to the Crystal mixer.
Both the Crystal and Dream synth should work with a generic Microsoft MPU-401 compatible driver.

Reply 35 of 99, by elianda

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Yes thats basically what I wrote above already how I solved it for Win2K when there was no driver available. It is like two soundcards on one card. As for the Dream, the MPU-401 Emulation doesn't work after a reset, since the DSP needs to be switched to this emulation. That is why under Win2K with the Crystal WDM driver and an MPU-401 on the Dreams port you won't hear anything from the DSP.
Thus you need the initialisation of the DSP somehow done, like loading the Dreams firmware before switching it to MPU-401 mode. You might also try to enable free hardware access from within a ntvdm process in Win2K and run the 94dinit.exe as you would do in plain DOS.

If there would be documentation free available you could even add more features to the firmware, as Terratec did for the EWS64XL (like 100% hardware accelerated *.xm / *.mod playback), Dolby Surround Decoder, maybe even EAX... whatever.

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Reply 36 of 99, by gerwin

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Okay now I can follow you, and I can certainly agree on the MPU problem in windows 2000. I feared my card was defective... Is it because Crystal MPU-401 WDM was supposed to be used with windows 98SE/ME, which support pre-initialization through config.sys/autoexec.bat...

Reply 37 of 99, by Amigaz

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elianda wrote:
Guillemot Maxi Sound 64 Home Studio Pro […]
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Guillemot Maxi Sound 64 Home Studio Pro

I have this card running since it was released.
http://mail.lipsia.de/~enigma/neu/pics/maxisound.jpg

It does not have the SB Pro mute bug. I have full manuals and software for it (even latest unofficial beta). Do you need any information?
On technical level this card is nearly identical as an EWS64XL. Same Dream SAM6407, same Crystal 4236...

For a comparison check this: http://www.dosforum.de/soundcards/
The Dream songs were recorded from my card.

While EWS64XL has 2 MB RAM and can be upgraded to 64? MB the MaxiSound has already a 4 MB ROM onboard and can be upgraded with 16 MB (probably even more, but 16 MB can be jumpered). The Maxisound ROM is based on a Roland wavetable soundfont.

Win9x driver: http://mail.lipsia.de/%7Eenigma/neu/files/driver_w9x_v5.zip
Win95 driver update: http://mail.lipsia.de/%7Eenigma/neu/files/driver_w9x_dx5.zip
NT4 driver: http://mail.lipsia.de/%7Eenigma/neu/files/max … d64_nt4_3.0.zip
DLS Soundfont Reader: http://mail.lipsia.de/%7Eenigma/neu/files/dlsreader.zip
MaxiSound64 Utilities: http://mail.lipsia.de/%7Eenigma/neu/files/maxi64.zip
(I am not sure if I uploaded the latest beta here, I might have some newer version somewhere)
9 MB Soundfont from Guillemot: http://mail.lipsia.de/%7Eenigma/neu/files/gm_9mb.zip
11 MB Soundfont: http://mail.lipsia.de/%7Eenigma/neu/files/gs_10mb.zip
Dream Datasheet: http://mail.lipsia.de/%7Eenigma/neu/files/SAM … 7_datasheet.pdf
Dream Driver API: http://mail.lipsia.de/%7Eenigma/neu/files/SAM … _driver_api.pdf

I don't know how good you are on configuring ISA PnP 😉
For NT4 I got some patched driver install to disable automatic PnP configuration, that enables the user to set any resources.

Today I tried my card on a newly installed 486 PC with Win95
I installed the first driver version and rebooted but got a yellow exclamation mark in my device manager for the WSS system
I also get some error when the card is initialized under DOS...is there some jumpers on the card that can be faulty?
Also noticed that in the updated driver folder the aupdate.exe is missing which is suppose top be there according to the readme in the folder

My retro computer stuff: https://lychee.jjserver.net/#16136303902327

Reply 38 of 99, by Amigaz

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elianda wrote:
ok Utilities needed for DOS: http://mail.lipsia.de/~enigma/neu/files/maxi64dos.rar I have put a initm.bat together. - Open cwdau […]
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ok Utilities needed for DOS:
http://mail.lipsia.de/~enigma/neu/files/maxi64dos.rar
I have put a initm.bat together.
- Open cwdaudio.ini and adjust the resources you wish to have
CDIO and CDInt is Dream and MPU401IO is daughterboard. If you don't use Daughterboard write 'Disabled'
- open initm.bat remove first copy line (you can use this as examples to switch between different resource templates)
- adjust Volumes in the Mixer Setting Line
- adjust paths

For 94dinit you might even write rom as Soundfont, though if you find out how it really loads a 94b file, give me a hint. It seems to read from the given 94b file, but i doubt it loads the whole MBs in this short time.

These are the latest Maxi Sound 64 Utilities. I found it some day in 1998 on the belgian ftp of guillemot.
http://mail.lipsia.de/~enigma/neu/files/Maxi64.EXE

So, does the card give sound?
http://mail.lipsia.de/~enigma/neu/files/HIGHWAY.MID

I tried these files and got the GM and Sb Pro stuff working in pure DOS 😀
But can't get any FM sound out of the card

btw. do I need to have a RAM stick on the card?

My retro computer stuff: https://lychee.jjserver.net/#16136303902327

Reply 39 of 99, by elianda

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No you don't need RAM on the card. Though for using DirectSound in Win9x it is recommended.
I just checked FM Playback here and it works. Maybe check your Mixer Settings.
With the ~8 kB Crystal Firmware
Daughterboard and FM Synth ist Mixer Synth, whereas Dream has no Slider.
I'am currently checking the original ~6.7 kB firmware.
(Maybe there is also a Crystal Firmware that fixes the EWS64s SB Pro Mute bug?!? needs also to be checked 😀 )

To clean this chaos a bit up:

There are the firmwares from the original MaxiSound64 install with the ~6.7 kB Crystal Firmware

There are the firmwares from the nearly identical Hoontech Soundtrack 97 with a ~8 kB Crystal Firmware

There is a firmware from the default crystal 423x card with around 5 kB.

Additionally the hoontech and ews64 have different Dream firmwares.

Regarding the daughterboard SB Pro mute issue for EWS64, I could imagine initializing the EWS64 as always and then reinitialize the Crystal with a different firmware. This might reset the Dream part too, but this wouldn't matter much, since in this case you plan to use Wavetable sound from the daughterboard.

I will try a bit around and see if I can find some relevant differences in all these software chaos.

Last edited by elianda on 2009-02-15, 16:04. Edited 1 time in total.