While waiting for responses (and maybe tinkering with the Monster and DOS glide game demos), here's another configuration which i will hopefully build later for a 'final' Win9x system. This is why i don't need the fastest stuff in the LEGACY/DOS machine.

target:

• AMD 2.8GHz Athlon/LE1660
  MSI K9MM-V micro-ATX
  2GB DDR2-800
  AGP NV GF FX 5900 (maybe build another clone with V5)
  PCI DMS MX300/Aureal SQ2500
  PCI SB0350 Audigy 2 ZS gold

what i've got:
P4 2.4C
Chaintech, i865PE
1.7GB DDR-400
NV GF 7900GS
SB0090 Audigy 1

but this should be much easier for me, as it shouldn't concern the "black magic" of DOS and the jungle of VOG (speed, sound etc), so in the meanwhile...

let's get back to my LEGACY/DOS config, would u, pleease? 😊

Welcome archsan. That is some nice hardware you are gathering.

archsan wrote:

1. Just to confirm--when i have this setup completed, i'd get all of these, right? Roland LA, GM, GS / AdLib/SoundBlaster / SB Pro 8-bit stereo (with MX300) FM/OPL-3 / SB-16 / SB-AWE / WSS & DirectSound / A3D

well.. most of it should be possible. Getting one PCI soundcard next to another PCI or ISA soundcard is not a big challenge, but putting in more soundcards gets tricky.

archsan wrote:

2. How good/bad is the SB Pro emulation on MX300/Vortex2?

A rough estimation; about 90% of my games/programs accept it as a SB-Pro without any issues. The OPL-3 FM is emulated, which is obvious.

archsan wrote:

3. Is MX300 (or any Vortex2) + Roland SCD-15 + Roland MT-32/CM-32L a good idea?

Usually the waveblaster header's midi port is Hardwired to the Gameport's midi port. So this might give problems. But I don't use external modules such as an MT-32, so I have never really tried.

archsan wrote:

4. Which SB16 CT model number should i get? One with the least noise and most acceptable sound quality. Won't be using it for MIDI--just OPL3 and SB16 sound. CT17xx? CT12xx? CT2xxx? CT4xxx?

The CT-2800 was my choice some months ago, it ain't noisy and has an OPL-3.

archsan wrote:

5. I've read this thread (Slowing a 440BX based PC). Is there a better option for a flexible platform than an unlocked P2 with SoftBIOS (386/486 range up to ~300MHz)? Any hardware + software-slowing down combination?

That multiplier limited P-II system can potentially give you 133MHz to 400MHz (with L2 cache disabled below 200MHz). But few mainboards have the 1.5x multiplier option. Besides P-II an AMD K-6 system is also an option: Link

FYI, I'm not sure that you can run an Audigy 2 in Windows 9x. It does look like the original Audigy can be used, however.

There is no perfect setup, IMO. 😀 Part of the fun is just messing around and seeing what happens. Combinations of hardware bring nuances that are hard to predict.

swaaye wrote:

FYI, I'm not sure that you can run an Audigy 2 in Windows 9x. Use a SBLive! or Vortex 2.

I have run an Audigy 2 ZS (with front drive bay) successfully in Windows 98, using the retail driver DVD-ROM. It's rather nice actually. You even get the option to revert back to the VxD driver package, if you don't want to use the WDM drivers.

Cool. I've just never tried and I didn't see drivers on Creative's site for Win9x and A2.

Thank you for your responses guys. I really appreciate it.

gerwin wrote:

well.. most of it should be possible. Getting one PCI soundcard next to another PCI or ISA soundcard is not a big challenge, but putting in more soundcards gets tricky.

swaaye wrote:

There is no perfect setup, IMO. 😀 Part of the fun is just messing around and seeing what happens. Combinations of hardware bring nuances that are hard to predict.

Copy that. From what i have read, VOGONS is not exact science 😐, well, at least not for me anyway. However, lots of member's experiences on the forum do help newbie like me on selecting which components to use 😀 . Or what to avoid. So i think i must do my part here (that is to put together the real things) and report back my own experience.

If it can't be done with one single box, i'm always ready to build a second one 😉 just to cover more standards. "Fun"? Yes, and i can see that the biggest reward will be the moments i share the legacy with other people (especially kids--i'm thinking of my nephews right now 😁).

gerwin wrote:

archsan wrote:

2. How good/bad is the SB Pro emulation on MX300/Vortex2?

A rough estimation; about 90% of my games/programs accept it as a SB-Pro without any issues. The OPL-3 FM is emulated, which is obvious.

Now i'm thinking again about putting in an original SB Pro (CT1330). I'm only concerned that it might be difficult to find them 😖. Have some of you guys tried or managed to find one in the recent years?

gerwin wrote:

archsan wrote:

3. Is MX300 (or any Vortex2) + Roland SCD-15 + Roland MT-32/CM-32L a good idea?

Usually the waveblaster header's midi port is Hardwired to the Gameport's midi port. So this might give problems. But I don't use external modules such as an MT-32, so I have never really tried.

Have someone else run this combination? For this system, i think of this card mostly as a MIDI header/port, like a PCI version of MPU401AT. I formed that opinion after reading (IIRC) Swaaye's thread or post somewhere on this forum. I'd like to try this myself, but i couldn't find an MT32 with an ACB-220 and the MX300 is not here yet. And i haven't even spotted a single SCD-15/SCB-55 to pick.

gerwin wrote:

archsan wrote:

4. Which SB16 CT model number should i get? One with the least noise and most acceptable sound quality. Won't be using it for MIDI--just OPL3 and SB16 sound. CT17xx? CT12xx? CT2xxx? CT4xxx?

The CT-2800 was my choice some months ago, it ain't noisy and has an OPL-3.

Copy that. thanks for the header.

Gerwin wrote:

That multiplier limited P-II system can potentially give you 133MHz to 400MHz (with L2 cache disabled below 200MHz). But few mainboards have the 1.5x multiplier option. Besides P-II an AMD K-6 system is also an option: Link

5u3's systems look very interesting--no, fantastic 😲. 5u3, if you read this, have you started stocking on "spare parts" to preserve your systems? 😁 but one thing that caught my attention the most was the

5u3 wrote:

case switches for selecting system bus speed and multiplier

thing. Have you documented it somewhere else? Maybe i can stay with ASUS P2B's and use this mod instead of relying on SoftBIOS.

retro games 100 wrote:

swaaye wrote:

FYI, I'm not sure that you can run an Audigy 2 in Windows 9x. Use a SBLive! or Vortex 2.

I have run an Audigy 2 ZS (with front drive bay) successfully in Windows 98, using the retail driver DVD-ROM. It's rather nice actually. You even get the option to revert back to the VxD driver package, if you don't want to use the WDM drivers.

I found this link for Win98 Hardware Compatibility List (official from Microsoft it seems). Only up to 2003 though. Audigy 2/ZS is released after that. Geforce FX and 6 series which are (were) officially supported are not on the list as well.

If you want something more updated, you may find useful info from a surviving Win9x user-base on MSFN. Try this link for general Win9x hardware compatibility and this link for latest motherboards that support/have drivers for Win98. They have been my resource for configuring my 'final' Win9x system, so i recommend the site for anyone building a new PC for Win9x.

It's DOS that i'm lost in... 😅

... but now i've found VOGONS though 😎

archsan, thanks very much for those '98 hardware compatibility links - they were very useful. 😀

BTW, I would be cautious getting any SB16 CT17xx models (..40, ..50, ..70), because they don't sound all that great.

gerwin wrote:

That multiplier limited P-II system can potentially give you 133MHz to 400MHz (with L2 cache disabled below 200MHz). But few mainboards have the 1.5x multiplier option.

correction: a 2.0x multiplier is sufficient for 133MHz.

archsan wrote:

Now i'm thinking again about putting in an original SB Pro (CT1330). I'm only concerned that it might be difficult to find them S-Face. Have some of you guys tried or managed to find one in the recent years

Well there is a SBPro2 code CT1600 too, I have seen them for sale regularly. But compared to these I would rather consider a quality 16-bit ISA soundcard that is SBPro compatible. ISA soundcards have an easier job in being compatible then a PCI card, because they don't have to fake/emulate the ISA bus channels.

archsan wrote:

Have someone else run this combination? For this system, i think of this card mostly as a MIDI header/port, like a PCI version of MPU401AT. I formed that opinion after reading (IIRC) Swaaye's thread or post somewhere on this forum. I'd like to try this myself, but i couldn't find an MT32 with an ACB-220 and the MX300 is not here yet. And i haven't even spotted a single SCD-15/SCB-55 to pick.

I measured things on my Turtle Beach Vortex-2 Card; The Waveblaster's Midi-out is connected to the Gameport's Midi-out through a 300 Ohm resistor.

Just wanted to add in a few points :

1. I'm having a SB Audigy 2 ZS too, and if I'm not mistaken, the minimum OS requirement out of the box for it is Windows 98 SE.

2. SCD-15 is rare. Quite difficult to get. For GS/GM sounds, you can get a SC-55 or SC-88. Problem is, both these are not very cheap. Otherwise, the AWE64 can handle good GM/GS compatibility in real mode games. And AWE-32 with additional RAMs will do wonders though, when compared to AWE64. (I have both.) For MT-32, it's a must to get the MT-32, or LAPC-1 (another rare item) or the Roland CM-32/64/300/500 series.

3. As for the external midi/internal soundcard combo, I have in one of my systems, the LAPC-I for MT-32 sounds, and an AWE32 connected via it's midi port to my SC-55 MKII. I also have the digital out cable connected to the AWE32 for digital FM/EMU chips-sounds. Occasionally I add in a Vortex2 based card (not from Diamond) to playtest the sounds in System Shock 2 and Thief, for the Aureal sounds in Windows 9x only. My MT-32 is connected to my main (another) system to the X-Fi's I/O drive.

4. One of my classic Dos based systems is using PIII 450MHz with P3B-F mobo. A bit similar to the P2B.

Hi there Malik, so we're neighbors by nation, i hope we can get along well here despite our nations' current issues... 😦 😁

Malik wrote:

1. I'm having a SB Audigy 2 ZS too, and if I'm not mistaken, the minimum OS requirement out of the box for it is Windows 98 SE.

Yes. Incidentally 98SE seems to be the most popular choice for people building/maintaining a Win9x system. Update this with all the available fixes, add some WinMe features (e.g., its defragger is said to be the fastest of all defraggers available for any OS) and you get the best of Win9x.

Malik wrote:

2. SCD-15 is rare. Quite difficult to get. For GS/GM sounds, you can get a SC-55 or SC-88. Problem is, both these are not very cheap. Otherwise, the AWE64 can handle good GM/GS compatibility in real mode games. And AWE-32 with additional RAMs will do wonders though, when compared to AWE64. (I have both.) For MT-32, it's a must to get the MT-32, or LAPC-1 (another rare item) or the Roland CM-32/64/300/500 series.

3. As for the external midi/internal soundcard combo, I have in one of my systems, the LAPC-I for MT-32 sounds, and an AWE32 connected via it's midi port to my SC-55 MKII. I also have the digital out cable connected to the AWE32 for digital FM/EMU chips-sounds. Occasionally I add in a Vortex2 based card (not from Diamond) to playtest the sounds in System Shock 2 and Thief, for the Aureal sounds in Windows 9x only. My MT-32 is connected to my main (another) system to the X-Fi's I/O drive.

I know i can replace SCD-15 with an SC-55 or even SC-88 for GM/GS, and yes they can be expensive.

Since you have a couple of Roland external modules, i'm curious about where did you get yours from. Your country has 240V (or is it 230V) mains, isn't it? Do you get the ACB-xxx and ACI-xxx (that is suitable for your mains) included in the package when you get your MT-32 and SC-55MkII? Or do you use an additional trafo with them?

gerwin wrote:

... But compared to these I would rather consider a quality 16-bit ISA soundcard that is SBPro compatible. ISA soundcards have an easier job in being compatible then a PCI card, because they don't have to fake/emulate the ISA bus channels.

You mean like the Ensoniq Soundscape or Terratec Maestro, for example? Does that mean more than 90% success rate? And what about their FM quality? I'd like to compare them all if i can.

gerwin wrote:

I measured things on my Turtle Beach Vortex-2 Card; The Waveblaster's Midi-out is connected to the Gameport's Midi-out through a 300 Ohm resistor.

Right, 300 ohm--um, what does that mean? I'm pretty much electronics-illiterate actually. 😁

archsan wrote:

You mean like the Ensoniq Soundscape or Terratec Maestro, for example? Does that mean more than 90% success rate? And what about their FM quality? I'd like to compare them all if i can.

Compare them All!? do you have any idea how many were made! that would be a very long list...

🤣 Just kidding, here is the list: ISA Soundcard Overview
Some ISA SBPro-compatible cards work with all of my 50 dos games. In real Dos that is. In a Windows 9x dosbox the compatibility is a little less perfect, but that may even be so with an actual SBPro.

archsan wrote:

Right, 300 ohm--um, what does that mean? I'm pretty much electronics-illiterate actually.

It means the two connectors are 'almost' hardwired to eachother. I don't know wheter it is OK to use both connectors at the same time. In the best case the midi daughterboard and the external midi module will both respond to the cards midi signal, and then they will both play the same tune.

fyi, you should stay far, far away from Ensoniq Soundscape 's FM synthesis emulation. It doesn't really sound like FM synth at all.

gerwin wrote:

Compare them All!? do you have any idea how many were made! that would be a very long list...

🤣 by all i mean just the cards i mentioned: SB Pro 1.0, MX300, Soundscape, and Maestro... but it's even nicer to have someone else do the job so others (me included) can enjoy the result 😁 --no, i mean, that's so very kind of you, sir! 😏

gerwin wrote:

ISA Soundcard Overview
Some ISA SBPro-compatible cards work with all of my 50 dos games. In real Dos that is. In a Windows 9x dosbox the compatibility is a little less perfect, but that may even be so with an actual SBPro.

Nicest thread there. I think i will only use SB Pro sound in Real-mode DOS. I think that's closer to what "pure" means... (i'm not that purist but still)

gerwin wrote:

It means the two connectors are 'almost' hardwired to eachother. I don't know wheter it is OK to use both connectors at the same time. In the best case the midi daughterboard and the external midi module will both respond to the cards midi signal, and then they will both play the same tune.

Then i hope the actual layout of the MX300 (which is said to be the same to Aureal's reference layout) is different to the TB Vortex2 card (for the better i hope), especially on the gameport/waveblaster header part.

swaaye wrote:

fyi, you should stay far, far away from Ensoniq Soundscape 's FM synthesis emulation. It doesn't really sound like FM synth at all.

Aye, copy that, sir! No Soundscape FM, no--far, far away... 😏

archsan wrote:

5u3, if you read this, have you started stocking on "spare parts" to preserve your systems? 😁

Yes, I've got backups for most of the parts - but not necessarily the same models/revisions. And of course I've got no backups for the Roland cards, I couldn't afford them at the prices those things fetch nowadays.

archsan wrote:

but one thing that caught my attention the most was the

5u3 wrote:

case switches for selecting system bus speed and multiplier

thing. Have you documented it somewhere else? Maybe i can stay with ASUS P2B's and use this mod instead of relying on SoftBIOS.

Those switches are very easy to make - just replace the jumpers for FSB and multiplier with switches. This mod is far from perfect though - every time I want to change the speed I have to power down the board. It sure beats fiddling with the jumpers, but a software solution would be more convenient.

I like your approach with the unlocked P2. Please report on how it works out.

archsan wrote:

Hi there Malik, so we're neighbors by nation, i hope we can get along well here despite our nations' current issues... 😦 😁

Hi archsan! No matter how close we are, there'll always be some people who want to make problems. On the other hand, no matter how far we are, we're connected with common interests, friend! 😁

archsan wrote:

Since you have a couple of Roland external modules, i'm curious about where did you get yours from. Your country has 240V (or is it 230V) mains, isn't it? Do you get the ACB-xxx and ACI-xxx (that is suitable for your mains) included in the package when you get your MT-32 and SC-55MkII? Or do you use an additional trafo with them?

Malaysian voltage specs is 240V @ 50Hz. I got both from Japan. They didn't come with the power adapters. I just bought the commonly available multi-volt and polar selectable adapter for each of them. Shouldn't be a problem at your place too. You need only need to supply DC 9V to each, observing the polarity. Just get the adapters from any electrical outlet.