gerwin wrote:

CT1600 SBPro 2.0: poor digital audio

I actually have to disagree with that.

In fact the Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 is one of the few (if not only) cards that allow you to enable or disable the output filter (low pass) of the digital audio section.

I have documented most of this in past post. Struggling to find all of the post but here are most of them including sound recordings so you can have a listen.

So to me the Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 can't be recommended more highly. At least from Creative, but I only have Creative cards. In combination with a Roland MPU401AT there isn't much that's missing...

I know Ace loves his X-WING, but it's only one game 🤣

So Gerwin, I highly recommend you get a Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 and try it out for yourself. Because everyone has a different computer, maybe this also plays a roll here...

I know this is all very subjective, so all I'm doing is sharing my recordings and findings. Everyone can have a listen, check the card for themselves and form their own opinion!

Past posts:

Ok so I used the tool SBP-SET.EXE in the SBPRO folder and it game me options for setting the mixer and one option seems to turn the output filter ON or OFF:

SBP-SET.EXE command options

Boot message confirming the mixer and filter settings!

So I did a recording of the SQ4 intro because it has FM and speech. However I struggle to detect a difference 🙁 If you guys can hear anything of interest please let me know! I'm also wondering what the default setting for the filter is. I take it it's ON?

http://www.mediafire.com/?11tpxwf9wahzsdc

Ok so I used the tool SBP-SET.EXE in the SBPRO folder and it game me options for setting the mixer and one option seems to turn the output filter ON or OFF:

SBP-SET.EXE command options

Boot message confirming the mixer and filter settings!

So I did a recording of the SQ4 intro because it has FM and speech. However I struggle to detect a difference 🙁 If you guys can hear anything of interest please let me know! I'm also wondering what the default setting for the filter is. I take it it's ON?

http://www.mediafire.com/?11tpxwf9wahzsdc

Frequency Analysis of "Fate of Atlantis" recording on Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 with Output filter ON

Frequency Analysis of "Fate of Atlantis" recording on Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 with Output filter OFF

The 4 recordings:

- SB Pro 2.0 with Filter ON (default)
- SB Pro 2.0 with Filter OFF
- AWE 64 GOLD
- DOSBox 0.74
Fate of Atlantis Atlantis Speech roundup

sorry, let me rephrase this correctly:
you want no problems with a vibra16 + opl3 + wb header? good luck!
of the cards you listed, all had problems

again, I recommend you give a CT2760 or CT3900 a try... nevermind the fact that they're 3/4 length cards... they fit fine in mini tower cases anyway

I'd skip the CT3900 in Gerwin's place as it uses CQM despite the presence of solder spots for a Yamaha YMF289 and accompanying YAC516 DAC.

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

I know Ace loves his X-WING, but it's only one game 🤣

Damn right I do. This game is my crack addiction when it comes to MS-DOS games. 🤣

But seriously speaking, I generally got poor digital audio out of absolutely everything I threw at the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0. Both the floppy disk edition and Collector's CD-ROM editions of X-Wing sound poor, Star Wars TIE Fighter sounds poor as well and Doom isn't too terrible but still sounds like the sound is downsampled. The only program I got working with quite good digital audio is an old MS-DOS version of MAME. When emulating Raiden in MAME using the YMF262 on the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 for OPL2 and the DSP for emulating the OKI6295 PCM sound chip on the original arcade board, the sound quality is simply beautiful, be it with the filter on or off.

Speaking of the filter, I find when the filter is disabled, at least with X-Wing and TIE Fighter, the sound quality is even worse. I'll leave these two X-Wing clips to let Gerwin hear for himself the difference between a SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 and a SoundBlaster 16/AWE32/AWE64, both taken from the Collector's CD-ROM edition:

SoundBlaster Pro 2.0: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9a42Yf11WU
SoundBlaster AWE64: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG-p-bvHAHg

And, of course, you'll hear the difference between CQM and OPL3 which we're all aware of. I can't believe I thought my SoundBlaster AWE64 CT4500 had true OPL3. I figured it had a YMF262 integrated within one of the chips on the sound card as it was a SoundBlaster and SoundBlasters were the sound cards to have for DOS games, but for the entire 4 months or so in my early days of DOS gaming(which was around this time last year when I put together my very first MS-DOS gaming PC), I was listening to OPL2/OPL3 music rendered in CQM. I immediately chucked my SoundBlaster AWE64 CT4500 into my bin of sound cards. Yet, despite this, I just can't get away from this sound card.

EDIT: Gerwin, if you want to see what the SoundBlaster 16 CT2840 looks like, check this eBay listing: http://cgi.ebay.ca/Creative-CT2840-/280706858 … 3DLVI%26ps%3D63

I can't believe how hard it is to find images of this sound card. Is this an OEM model of the SoundBlaster 16? Or just one that's uncommon?

Yea...

Gerwin if you ever get a SB Pro 2.0 please let us know what you think and rate it against the other cards you have been using!

fate of atlantis... now that's a game I completely forgot about!

Ace wrote:

I'd skip the CT3900 in Gerwin's place as it uses CQM despite the presence of solder spots for a Yamaha YMF289 and accompanying Y […]
Show full quote

I'd skip the CT3900 in Gerwin's place as it uses CQM despite the presence of solder spots for a Yamaha YMF289 and accompanying YAC516 DAC.

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

I know Ace loves his X-WING, but it's only one game 🤣

Damn right I do. This game is my crack addiction when it comes to MS-DOS games. 🤣

But seriously speaking, I generally got poor digital audio out of absolutely everything I threw at the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0. Both the floppy disk edition and Collector's CD-ROM editions of X-Wing sound poor, Star Wars TIE Fighter sounds poor as well and Doom isn't too terrible but still sounds like the sound is downsampled. The only program I got working with quite good digital audio is an old MS-DOS version of MAME. When emulating Raiden in MAME using the YMF262 on the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 for OPL2 and the DSP for emulating the OKI6295 PCM sound chip on the original arcade board, the sound quality is simply beautiful, be it with the filter on or off.

Speaking of the filter, I find when the filter is disabled, at least with X-Wing and TIE Fighter, the sound quality is even worse. I'll leave these two X-Wing clips to let Gerwin hear for himself the difference between a SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 and a SoundBlaster 16/AWE32/AWE64, both taken from the Collector's CD-ROM edition:

SoundBlaster Pro 2.0: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9a42Yf11WU
SoundBlaster AWE64: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG-p-bvHAHg

And, of course, you'll hear the difference between CQM and OPL3 which we're all aware of. I can't believe I thought my SoundBlaster AWE64 CT4500 had true OPL3. I figured it had a YMF262 integrated within one of the chips on the sound card as it was a SoundBlaster and SoundBlasters were the sound cards to have for DOS games, but for the entire 4 months or so in my early days of DOS gaming(which was around this time last year when I put together my very first MS-DOS gaming PC), I was listening to OPL2/OPL3 music rendered in CQM. I immediately chucked my SoundBlaster AWE64 CT4500 into my bin of sound cards. Yet, despite this, I just can't get away from this sound card.

EDIT: Gerwin, if you want to see what the SoundBlaster 16 CT2840 looks like, check this eBay listing: http://cgi.ebay.ca/Creative-CT2840-/280706858 … 3DLVI%26ps%3D63

I can't believe how hard it is to find images of this sound card. Is this an OEM model of the SoundBlaster 16? Or just one that's uncommon?

no it doesn't... the CT3900 has OPL3
I have one, don't you think I wouldn't know? 😒

you must be thinking about a different card because clearly you know nothing about the CT3900

Thanks for all the suggestions. (Even though I stated that I am currently
quite satisfied with the CT2940. 😀 )

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

The 4 recordings: - SB Pro 2.0 with Filter ON (default) - SB Pro 2.0 with Filter OFF - AWE 64 GOLD - DOSBox 0.74[/size][/b] […]
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The 4 recordings:
- SB Pro 2.0 with Filter ON (default)
- SB Pro 2.0 with Filter OFF
- AWE 64 GOLD
- DOSBox 0.74[/size][/b]

They each sound noticably different, yet it is hard to say one is better then
the other. It seems SBPro Filter is better left OFF.

I don't have anything against the SBPro, If I see one for little I would get it.
But I don't want this system to go without 16-bit audio, that is for sure.
I do have some of the best SBPro compatibles available.

@ACE
I was listening to the X-Wing movies, but the music was rather loud
compared to the effects. Your AWE64 gives better FM then what I was
hearing on mine. I think my AWE64's FM was broken or something.

@TheMAN
If someone really needs the EMU8000 and is short of ISA slots, then of
course certain SB32's/AWE32's are the way to go.

I cannot find a reason to look at the AWE32's much myself, since about all
of these AWE32 chipsets were also put on SB16's, minus the EMU8000.
Like the popular CT1747 chip with OPL written on it, the silent
CT2502 Vibra Pro I have now, and the CT1749 chip from 1995.
Actually these last two are only seen paired with OPL3-L on some SB16's,
whilst on the SB32/AWE32's these last two chipsets are paired with CQM
instead.
I am still a little curious about trying a CT1747 and a CT1749 based card
myself. Just a little.

My current sound setup from top to bottom:
-Dream GS wave 4MB Midi DB.
-Stereo reverser bracket for midi DB, Also the midi signal originates from the MPU-401AT through the orange wire.
-SB16 CT2940, with CT2502 Vibra Pro and OPL3-L.
-MPU-401AT: only using midi-out signal, not using the WB header on this one due to clipping of analog midi output when playing loud midi's.
-CT1920 EMU8000 goldfinch card with 8 MB. Just a little extra. I don't initialize it at boot, but manually when I want to use it.

like I said... the AWE32s have the same chips as the early AWE64, you can see that in that CT3900 pic I posted... they are revised and quieter versions than what most SB16s came with... mine has an even newer mixer chip, the CT1745A-S... the quietest thing next to the AWE64 Gold's CT1745A-SCP... those are reasons alone that make the AWE32s better than SB16s

as I also explained, the AWE32s are mostly problem free compared to what you experienced with the SB16s that also had the extras you demanded
I also proved to you that the CT3900 has the OPL3 CT1747 chip... your statement that the AWE32s have the CQM chip is false, I don't doubt you listened to ace's misinformation and conveniently overlooked the proof I previously posted

because of this, I still think the AWE32 is probably your problem solver

Okay fuckers, listen up ! TheMAN has his information correct. But if you don't fucking get it. Then let me explain like you were all 3 year old children TheMAN knows his shit, and if you fucking ignore him and prance around like little sissies, it is no wonder why you screw up your computer systems. If you on the other hand listen to his advice, you should be extremely unlucky if your computers goes FUBAR. Or is a normal situation for you guys, what we all others call a SNAFU ? TheMAN fixes/repairs computers so he knows his stuff around the bend. If TheMAN was closer to Denmark, I would enjoy him fixing my PC and the server that is on hiatus right now. So show some God damn respect ! And if any one wants to fight me, then listen up. I have fought bigger battles, than trivialities and won.

Basically I am telling you guys, to stop ignoring TheMAN´s advice.

Such an unnecessary post.

People have different views and it's not like these views aren't supported with arguments.

Name calling and bullying on he other hand is something that has no place here.

I don't think you have fought any big battles in life, otherwise you wouldn't show such a reaction to something so trivial.

Mau1wurf1977: oh yes I have fought a lot of battles, but me saying sissy is just as you at least understand. When TheMAN says his stuff. Then they are sound advice, not me being homophobic, even though it can be seen that way. Mau1wurf1977, I am perhaps not a soldier, but I have fought battles none the less.

settle down beavis

Gerwin, I'm really confused about what you are doing with the MPU401AT. I thought the whole purpose of having it is to avoid the hanging notes problem common to most SB16 cards. I take this to mean you have found that your CT2940 does not have the hanging notes problem? You mentioned that your DB has clipping when connected to MPU401AT. Is this a problem related to your specific DB, or is the MPU401AT defective in some way?

he's saying the output clips when using the WB header from that card
this is what clipping means: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wik … ing_%28audio%29

oh and yes, the newer AWE32 PnP has the CQM bullshit (most of them) and also has the binaural "3D Sound" bullshit that distorts audio to a point it ruins the quality... all PnP creative ISA cards suffer this fate

TheMAN wrote:

no it doesn't... the CT3900 has OPL3 I have one, don't you think I wouldn't know? :blah: http://www.yjfy.com/images/oldhard/soun […]
Show full quote

no it doesn't... the CT3900 has OPL3
I have one, don't you think I wouldn't know? 😒

you must be thinking about a different card because clearly you know nothing about the CT3900

😳

D'oh! I'm an idiot; I was thinking of the SoundBlaster AWE32 CT3990. That one has an empty solder spot for a YMF289 and YAC516:

Son of a *****, I just made a fool of myself. 😵 *retreats in shame an disgust*

but the CT3980 has the OPL3 chip 😜 but stupid PnP... bah!

TheMAN wrote:

like I said... the AWE32s have the same chips as the early AWE64, you can see that in that CT3900 pic I posted... they are revised and quieter versions than what most SB16s came with... mine has an even newer mixer chip, the CT1745A-S... the quietest thing next to the AWE64 Gold's CT1745A-SCP... those are reasons alone that make the AWE32s better than SB16s

Now write that again, knowing the CT1745A-S is also on at least one SB16.

TheMAN wrote:

as I also explained, the AWE32s are mostly problem free compared to what you experienced with the SB16s that also had the extras you demanded

That is debatable.

TheMAN wrote:

I also proved to you that the CT3900 has the OPL3 CT1747 chip... your statement that the AWE32s have the CQM chip is false, I don't doubt you listened to ace's misinformation and conveniently overlooked the proof I previously posted

My statement was about two exactly defined AWE32 types, and not about all AWE32's. Nothing was false.

TheMAN wrote:

because of this, I still think the AWE32 is probably your problem solver

hehe 😀 I don't have a problem.
Again, I am not putting down all AWE32's. But for most AWE32 tastes, there is an equal SB16, at least.
AWE32's are long, their length even made this topic hard to read now 😉

When you advise the AWE32 CT3900, would the SB16 CT2910 or CT2770 or CT2290 or CT2230 be functionally the same without the EMU8000?
The main controller CT1747 is the same (it contains an OPL, but does more). Yet the mixer revisions differ in detail.

TheMAN wrote:

oh and yes, the newer AWE32 PnP has the CQM bullshit (most of them) and also has the binaural "3D Sound" bullshit that distorts audio to a point it ruins the quality... all PnP creative ISA cards suffer this fate

Well that is a bold statement. But why did I not notice this 3D sound with the AWE64 gold and my current CT2940?

Anonymous Coward wrote:

Gerwin, I'm really confused about what you are doing with the MPU401AT. I thought the whole purpose of having it is to avoid the hanging notes problem common to most SB16 cards. I take this to mean you have found that your CT2940 does not have the hanging notes problem? You mentioned that your DB has clipping when connected to MPU401AT. Is this a problem related to your specific DB, or is the MPU401AT defective in some way?

The midi Waveblaster header has four functions:
1- Midi data for the DB.
2- Reset signal for the DB.
3- Power supply for the DB (5,12,-12 Volt) and ground.
4- Analog left and right from the DB.
(sometimes Midi data from the DB)

In my setup part 1 is supplied by the MPU401-AT through the orange wire. All midi data goes through that single orange wire. The bugged SB16 midi signal is going nowhere.
Parts 2,3,4 are connected to the SB16. The two signals from 4 are reversed before they go to the SB16 mixer.
I can do this because there is this home made bracket, in between the waveblaster connectors.

IIRC The clipping does not occur when using a Roland DB on the Roland MPU401-AT. But with my favorite DB, it does.

This is a very interesting setup. Very ugly, but I like it. Have you had a chance to test the Acer Magic S32 that is similar to the CT2800 you are currently using?

I'll have to pay closer attention to the XR385 board I have connected to an MPU401AT to see if it is clipping or not. Is there any way to rectify the problem? Perhaps by using the RCA outputs rather than the headphone jack, or maybe soldering in a resistor somewhere?

Anonymous Coward wrote:

Have you had a chance to test the Acer Magic S32 that is similar to the CT2800 you are currently using?

Edit: below I am writing about my Magic S23 in error.
I don't have a S32, and lost my interest in the Vibra16S based cards anyway.

I tested it a few times. It works fine. There was this command line option
that allows legacy sound to work inside windows 9x. But when using that
option it would no longer override BIOS PnP settings? So I had to force it
to use the correct resources by using BIOS settings. Then I was messing
around with the resources: SBPro could be put A220 I7 D1, but I was far
from finished with getting WSS 16-Bit functionality going.
That is for another day.

Anonymous Coward wrote:

Is there any way to rectify the problem? Perhaps by using the RCA outputs rather than the headphone jack, or maybe soldering in a resistor somewhere?

When I encountered the problem I tried other DB hosts cards, but many
gave me clipping. Then I solved it with that orange wire, and left it
like that. It is even preferable to reroute the digital midi signal, compared to
using an analog line from the Roland to the SB16 line-in.

The problem is diagnosed best with the Warcraft II midi files, or the intro
tune from the Shadow Warrior demo.

It is a bit mysterious, Like that time I wanted to make recordings from DB's
attached to a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz: The recordings had clipping with
every DB I tried. I managed to get rid of the clipping by placing resistors in
between. Multiple kOhm IIRC. With the Santa Cruz, the problem was not
there when just listening to the DB's without recording.

So I was talking about a Sound Blaster 16 containing the CT1745A-S mixer
like the AWE64 Gold, and having a real OPL3. I finally received a working
specimen in the form of a CT2950. The first one was DOA, and
shipping took quite a few weeks. It seems functionally the same as the
CT2940. Which is a good thing. Same configuration procedure and the
same low noise floors. Both have the hanging note bug as expected.
DSP is v4.13. The cards have exactly the same connectors, including a
Waveblaster connector.
CT2940 has the advantage of being smaller. CT2950 has the advantage of
giving no 'ringing' at all on the digital effects channel in Tyrian setup.

Sound Blaster 16 (C16F) - CT2940 / CT2943-A2
PCB Date 18-'96 - Chipset: CT2502-SDQ (Malta) and YMF289B-S

Sound Blaster 16 Pro PnP - CT2950 / CT2951-A1
PCB Date 37-'95 - Chipset: CT1749-DAQ and CT1745A-S (Malta) and YMF289B-S
This one was dead on arrival "failure setting base i/o address at 220h"

Sound Blaster 16 Pro PnP - CT2950 / CT2951-A3
PCB Date 13-'96 - Chipset: CT1749-DCQ and CT1745A-S (France) and YMF289B-S

Got these Soundcards from: Ebay, Totoro Shop, China