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First post, by tikoellner

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Hello,

I would like to try to run my IBM 5x86c-100 at 120mhZ to do some tests on ATC-1425B motherboard (for manual: http://www.elhvb.com/mboards/a-trend/1425b/ATC-1425B.html).

I understand I need to get FSB to 40mhz. But which jumper refers to FSB setting?

Could you please advice me on the jumper settings? First I intended to try the settings for AMD DX4-120, but is that the way to go?

I hope it will be run it at 3.45v.

Reply 3 of 14, by feipoa

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What is DN3D? What graphics card are you using?

Based on those tables, I beleive JP 14/13/12 control the FSB. In order of the supplied table (CPU speed setting), they are 25, 33, 40, and 50 MHz. I would set JP14/13/12 to open/open/close. Also set the CYRIX CPU settings as supplied in the Cyrix 5x86 table. I would also set the Synchronous clock as opposed to the asynchronous clock.

I looked an image for this motherboard online. It has a PS/2 mouse header. Did you test it?

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 4 of 14, by tikoellner

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DN3D is Duke Nukem 3D, I hoped I could get some reasonable FPS on 120mhz, but it still seems bit too slow (plus, I need to get some fan, as it definatelly gets to hot at 120mhz - temporarly got back to 100mhz, where it runs cool enough).

I am currently using Number Nine Motion 331 (Trio 64V+). I have also tested Hercules Dynamite 128/Video (which does not seem to be compatible with lots of older games), but I get comparable results, so I just stayed with Number Nine card (think there's anything better to get in terms both of speed and compatibility?).

Now the PS/2 header - yes, I have tested it and it works perfectly fine.

BTW - based on your broad experience with 5x86 and on ATC-1425b manual - could you please recommend some optimal chipset settings I should use? I'm moving like a child i the fog here, I'm afraid.

I will also try synchronous clock (been running asynchronous clock so far; why is this not recommended?)

Reply 5 of 14, by feipoa

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I would definitely install at fan at 120 MHz. Interestingly, I have a stock Cyrix 5x86-120 chip which came with a Cyrix-supplied heatsink without fan.

What kind of frame rates are you getting in Duke3D and what video screen size did you select? I get between 8-20 fps at VESA 800x600 using the IBM 5x86c at 133 MHz with a Matrox G200. I am the wrong individual to ask about graphics cards and compatibility, however it seems that many people recommend the S3 Trio64 and Virge cards for compatibility. Were there any graphics cards which can run Duke3D accelerated?

I am not exactly sure what the synchronous vs. asynchronous clock jumper does on this motherboard, but I suspect it adds a 1/2 multiplier to the PCI clock, so that it might be running at 20 MHz instead of 40 MHz, or possibly it adds a wait state.

If you provide some images of your CMOS settings, I'll take a look and make some recommendations. How much cache do you have installed? It is unfortunate that you can only use single-banked cache, which generally requires slower cache timings than double-banked cache.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 6 of 14, by tikoellner

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Is there any "Holy Grail" among socket3 that combines all features, including double banked cache? I am open to replacing my current one.

I will post my current options in the afternoon.

Playing duke at 640x480 I currently get noticably below 20fps, which renders it unplayable. I believe this game, based on Build engine, does not generally support any 3d acceleration. It's not a real 3d engine, I think.

Reply 7 of 14, by feipoa

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Holy Grail depends on your desires.
1. Is a PS/2 mouse port necessary for you? It is for me.
2. Is PCI necessary for you? If so, 3 or 4 slots? Or is a VLB/ISA board acceptable?
3. How much RAM do you want?
4. How much cache?
5. Do you want a CPU voltage setting of 3.6 V?
6. What is your target FSB?
7. What is your target CPU?
8. Are you OK with modifying the motherboards to allow for a) native PS/2 mouse support, b) variable CPU voltage, c) cache socket modification for increasing cache size.
9. Do you have interest in running 3D accelerated games?

If you are willing to modify the motherboards there are a lot of holy grails.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 8 of 14, by tikoellner

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Hey.

I got back from work and checked how the computer performs depending on asynchronous/synchronous clock setting (other settings unchanged, CPU @100mhz)

Asynchronous (jp 10 to 1-2): 62.5 (Superscape);

Synchronous (jp 10 to 2-3): 55.5 (Superscape),

So, asynchronous seem considerably slower.

Below I post my current chipset settings:

20160509_174212_zpsr0u7gqeu.jpg

BTW - I realised that my motherboard has currently 256kb cache, which is shame, as I was sure it had 512kb. I will look for some chips to upgrade it. Wonder what the difference could it produce.

Reply 9 of 14, by feipoa

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tikoellner wrote:

Asynchronous (jp 10 to 1-2): 62.5 (Superscape);
Synchronous (jp 10 to 2-3): 55.5 (Superscape),
So, asynchronous seem considerably slower.

Doesn't the larger number correspond to faster?

These are the settings I use if I have a 33 MHz FSB on a SiS496 chipset,

Cache Write Cycle = 2
Cache burst read cycle = 1
L2 Cache/DRAM Cycle WS = 2

RAS to CAS = 3
DRAM Write Cycle = 0
DRAM Write CAS Pulse = 2
DRAM CAS Precharge Time = 1
DRAM RAS to MA Delay = 2
DRAM Speed = Fastest
CPU Internal Cache = Enabled
CPU Burst Write = Enabled (I recall this doesn't work with the Am5x86, but works with Cyrix 5x86)
L2 Cache Policy = Write-Back
L2 Cache Tag Bits = 7 bits (or set to 8 bits if L2 cache policy is Write-through)
IDE Prefetch Read Buffer = Enabled. Doesn't this speed up IDE access quite a bit when using the onboard IDE controller? However, I recall that many motherboards have issues with this setting.

I am able to get away with these settings if using an Am5x86-160 and a 40 MHz FSB, however if I use and IBM 5x86-120, cache burst read cycle and/or L2 cache/DRAM Cycle WS needed to be slowed down. Using single-banked cache also generally requires slower timings when running close to the stable limits like this.

On my DTK PKM-0033S motherboard, if I am using an IBM 5x86c-120 with 512 KB double-banked cache, I was able to use cache write/cache read/DRAM cycle of 2/1/3. When using 512 KB single-banked cache, I had to slow it down to 2/2/3.

On a different SiS496-based motherboard I have, which is single-banked cache only, you may want to look at this thread, Help with SiS 496/497 Tomato 4DPS 486 motherboard

I will cut the relevant sections from it,

I am tyring to get this system setup, with an AMD X5-160 ADZ at 40x4. […]
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I am tyring to get this system setup, with an AMD X5-160 ADZ at 40x4.

At 40 MHz FSB, setting the cache write cycle to 2 and DRAM Speed to Fastest gives really nice cachechk speeds:

L1 Read: 165 MB/s
L2 Read: 75 MB/s
RAM Read: 51.5 MB/s
RAM Write: 83.6 MB/s

However the system is not stable in Windows. I need to set the cache write cycle up to 3 for the system to be stable enough in Windows to run the Quake 2 benchmark, or play mp3's continually.

Setting cache write cycle to 3 greatly lowers the Cachechk speeds as follows:

L1 Read: 165 MB/s
L2 Read: 75 MB/s
RAM Read: 39.4 MB/s
RAM Write: 55.7 MB/s

Keep in mind that the stability with cache burst read cycle and DRAM Cycle WS also depends on the RAM quantity and number of RAM sticks. If I were you, I would start out with a single stick of 32 MB FPM RAM and use the settings I noted above, namely cache write/cache read/DRAM cycle of 2/1/2. If you experience instability, set the DRAM Cycle WS to 3. Still not stable, set the cache burst read cycle to 2. Still not stable, try decreasing your DRAM Speed timing to Fast, then slower, then slowest.

On another SiS496-based motherboard, I noticed that for the IBM 5x86-120 to work well with DRAM Cycle WS = 2 that the CPU needed 3.60 V.

Concerning cache increases and performance boosts, I will copy/paste what I wrote in another thread,

32 MB (write-back) 1024K = 5.83 512K = 5.52 256K = 5.33 […]
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32 MB (write-back)
1024K = 5.83
512K = 5.52
256K = 5.33

Interesting how CPUMark99 shows a 10% improvement when the cache jumps from 256K to 1024K. I think the real-world improvement is around 2%. Shows how sensitive this benchmark is in regard to cache. Similarly, the benefit of write-back over write-through cache was 4%.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 10 of 14, by noshutdown

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hello, i necro this post up because i happened to get a atc1425b aswell. i havn't tested it yet because i need some hours to set everything up, but i guess it would be the best 486 board that i can ever put my hands on assuming its working, as any 486 boards are hard to find now.
the question is that i read the manual and found a few undocumented jumpers: jp1, jp11, jp17, and jp35's last two pins. i have even found a pdf version of the manual which seems to be scanned from the original one, and its board layout digram does show them, but the jumpers setting section never mentioned them. does anyone know what these jumpers do and how shall i set them? i am especially concerned about jp11 because its right next to jp10, which is the pci divider.

Reply 11 of 14, by noshutdown

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feipoa wrote:
Holy Grail depends on your desires. 1. Is a PS/2 mouse port necessary for you? It is for me. 2. Is PCI necessary for you? If s […]
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Holy Grail depends on your desires.
1. Is a PS/2 mouse port necessary for you? It is for me.
2. Is PCI necessary for you? If so, 3 or 4 slots? Or is a VLB/ISA board acceptable?
3. How much RAM do you want?
4. How much cache?
5. Do you want a CPU voltage setting of 3.6 V?
6. What is your target FSB?
7. What is your target CPU?
8. Are you OK with modifying the motherboards to allow for a) native PS/2 mouse support, b) variable CPU voltage, c) cache socket modification for increasing cache size.
9. Do you have interest in running 3D accelerated games?

1. not critically wanted, but having ps/2 would be a great advantage.
2. yes, 3 would be fine and even 2 would do. vlb is not wanted as i want 3d cards.
3. 64mb, i want to run some win9x games and beat the sh*t out of it.
4. 512kb. 1mb is not required, 256kb may be acceptable if bios allows l2 in wt mode(a few boards seem to force wb mode only).
5. at least one of 3.6 and 4.0 shall be provided, so i can overvoltage a bit and improve stability.
6. working 50 fsb with pci divider. well i would live with 3-2-2-2 cache timing.
7. amd5x86-150, i am not interested in pod and cyrix5x86 as they aren't true 486 kernels.
8. no i can't.
9. yes, the faster the better.
yeah thats what i expect from a 486 board, which one would you recommend within my standard?

Reply 12 of 14, by feipoa

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If you only care about 64 MB RAM, with L2 in WT mode and 256K double-banked cache, then the Biostar MB-8433UUD is a fine choice for boards with Um8881 chipset. Run the Am5x86 at 160 MHz, use a single stick of 64 MB FPM. Most Am5x86-133 chips will run at 160 MHz and 3.45 V. Leave the PCI bus at 40 MHz. Set cache to 2-1-1-1 and RAM to 0WS/0WS read/write. Use a Voodoo2 3D card mixed with a ViRGE GX or Matrox G200. PS/2 mouse OK. A GeForce2 MX400 also works. The 8433UUD board, with some soldering effort, can be upgraded to 1024K. If you want 1024K double-banked cache natively, the Gigabyte GA-486AM rev 2.2 is a nice board, however you will need to replace resistor R150 with a trimmer if you want greater than 3.3 V. IIRC, that resistor is through hole and very easy to replace. This board has no PS/2.

If you want a Voodoo3 and native PS/2 mouse then I cannot recommend anything. If you can go without PS/2, then the DTK PKM-0033S, MSI MS-4144 v2.1, or Chaintech 486SPM are nice boards which use the SiS496 chipset. The Chaintech board is the easiest board to mod for PS/2 mouse implementation. See here, Adding PS/2 mouse components to a Chaintech 486SPM . There are solder pads which need components added. The board has only 3.3V though, but mine measured at 3.41 V. Best to replace SMD resistor R2 with a trimmer so that the 4 V setting can be used for a 3.0 - 4.2 V variable voltage supply. The MSI-4144 board has a 3.45 V setting and can also be modded quite easily to work with PS/2 mice. I would still remove the resistor responsible for the 4 V CPU voltage setting with a trimmer to give the 3.45-4.1 V variance. The DTK PKM-0033S board comes with a 3.6 V setting and takes 1024K, but will require some extensive soldering effort to get PS/2 mice working. I found the 3.6 V setting on this board works fine with my Cyrix 5x86-133/4x chip, so I did not bother to solder on a trimmer. Many people like the Zida Tomato 4DPS board for SiS496 chipsets, however the fact that it can only accept 256K or 512K single-banked cache causes problems with realising fast memory throughput with a 40 MHz FSB, e.g. Help with SiS 496/497 Tomato 4DPS 486 motherboard . In that thread, I only tested 512K. It is possible that 256K doesn't have the same problem. 4DPS has a working PS/2 mouse header, however only outputs 3.35 V, which can be problematic for some CPUs. Again, you will want to desolder the resistor responsible for this and replace it with a trimmer. I believe on this board, it is a through hole resistor, which makes it very easy.

If you are insisting on a Am5x86-150 (not 160), then the only board I recommend is the Biostar MB-8433UUD because it has a 2/3 PCI multiplier option. However, running the cache at 3-2-2-2 kills the performance compared to 2-1-1-1 at 160 MHz. The only other board with a 2/3 PCI multiplier option that I know of is the PC Chips M919. The latest version is 3.4 and you will want to find the 256K SRAM module. The problem with this board, asside from its manufacturers notorious reputation for being a cheapskate, is the 2/3 multiplier option is automatic, so it occurs at 40 MHz also!

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 13 of 14, by feipoa

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Here is a Chaintech 486SPM which comes with the PS/2 mouse header and components installed already.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/222029943491

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 14 of 14, by RiP

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noshutdown wrote on 2016-06-24, 15:29:

the question is that i read the manual and found a few undocumented jumpers: jp1, jp11, jp17, and jp35's last two pins. i have even found a pdf version of the manual which seems to be scanned from the original one, and its board layout diagram does show them, but the jumpers setting section never mentioned them. does anyone know what these jumpers do and how shall i set them? i am especially concerned about jp11 because its right next to jp10, which is the pci divider.

Sorry for replying to this old topic but I had this question too 😕
And what about the PS/2 pinout?