VOGONS


First post, by noshutdown

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board in question is a pcchips board with unknown model and ali m1429 chipset, its identical to this abit 386at3:
https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/motherboards/A/A … 86-386-AT3.html

as the m1429 is a 486era chipset and the board supports up to 192mb of ram(even though only 32mb would be cacheable), i had high expectation on it, and it did perform superbly without cache: cachechk reports ram speed at 53us/kb compared to most typical boards at 67us/kb, thats 2 clocks faster per read, and its also noticeable faster than other boards in 3dbench, pcpbench, norton si and doom.

when cache is enabled, cachechk and speedsys results are still good: cachechk reports 40us/kb for cache which is typical for 386dx-40 boards, and cache-miss dram acces is 67us/kb, which indicates there is a 2-clock penalty over the uncached dram, which is also typical, and its still faster than my lenovo um82c491 board which is 80us/kb for cache-miss dram. speedsys reports 31mb/s for cache which is typical, and 19mb/s for dram which is also quite fast. however it never did well in other benchmarks:

norton sysinfo at 42.6pts
3dbench 14.4fps
pcpbench 3.6fps
doom 7.7fps

these scores are achieved with write-back mode, which would only cache for 16mb of ram, write-through mode would slow things down further by about 5%.
since this board performed so fast in cachechk and speedsys, there must be something wrong with it to be so slow in other benchmarks.

Reply 1 of 33, by alvaro84

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noshutdown wrote:

3dbench 14.4fps
pcpbench 3.6fps
doom 7.7fps

They don't seem overly bad to me, especially that I used the tightest timings for cache and RAM and even overclocked the ISA bus under the CL-GD5426 VGA to 16MHz. My results are:

Doom 8.16fps (it's registered Doom demo3 but it shouldn't make a huge difference)
PCPBench 3.7 fps (with an IIT 387 FPU - I'm not sure if it uses the 387)
3DBench 16.9 fps (the VGA counts a lot here, I got 18.8 with OPTi495SLC and a VLB Trident)

My impression is that my ALI M1429 based boards [Soyo 019R1, 386ADIII] offer good performance, usually somewhat beyond other chipsets. I have a UMC 82C482AF based BC3486UL (with crazy clock options like 10 and 45MHz) and a OPTI 495SLC too, which are 386/486 combo boards. The ALI chipset seems to outperform the UMC at 40 MHz but falls behind a little when the UMC runs at 45MHz. The diference is not huge, though, both feels right for a 386DX.

Shame on us, doomed from the start
May God have mercy on our dirty little hearts

Reply 2 of 33, by pshipkov

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I think that both pcpbech and 3dbench are in general CPU bound. If your VGA is at least decently good, you will be measuring CPU performance mostly.
The threshold for VGAs is so low that you will need a real underperformer like entry level Realtek, or Trident, to affect the scores.
Even Doom is mostly CPU bound. The performance difference between the best and worst VGAs from that time period is probably less than ~5 FPS when running Doom.

@noshutdown
You didn't clarify what video card was used. Did you check the wait state jumper, if it has one ?

@alvaro84
CL-GD5426 will never be the bottleneck on a 386 system. It is one of the best video cards of its time.

I think that in both of your cases we are looking at less than optimal motherboards (chipset and/or bios) that deliver lower performance.

retro bits and bytes

Reply 3 of 33, by pshipkov

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Btw, there are many motherboards out there that deliver good CPU/FPU/RAM performance, but suck at dealing with graphics.
Funnily enough, not far ago i spent some time to identify and benchmark some of the worst offenders in this department.
You think your FPS scores are not great ? There is much worse. For example pcpbench score of 1.5, 3dbench score of 7 and Doom fps of 2.
😀

retro bits and bytes

Reply 4 of 33, by noshutdown

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alvaro84 wrote:
They don't seem overly bad to me, especially that I used the tightest timings for cache and RAM and even overclocked the ISA bus […]
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They don't seem overly bad to me, especially that I used the tightest timings for cache and RAM and even overclocked the ISA bus under the CL-GD5426 VGA to 16MHz. My results are:

Doom 8.16fps (it's registered Doom demo3 but it shouldn't make a huge difference)
PCPBench 3.7 fps (with an IIT 387 FPU - I'm not sure if it uses the 387)
3DBench 16.9 fps (the VGA counts a lot here, I got 18.8 with OPTi495SLC and a VLB Trident)

My impression is that my ALI M1429 based boards [Soyo 019R1, 386ADIII] offer good performance, usually somewhat beyond other chipsets. I have a UMC 82C482AF based BC3486UL (with crazy clock options like 10 and 45MHz) and a OPTI 495SLC too, which are 386/486 combo boards. The ALI chipset seems to outperform the UMC at 40 MHz but falls behind a little when the UMC runs at 45MHz. The diference is not huge, though, both feels right for a 386DX.

my lenovo um82c491 board performed much better than the m1429, even though its cachechk and speedsys scores are a bit lower:
doom 8.8fps
pcpbench 4.0fps
3dbench 16.9fps(same as yours)

the score of m1429 is only on par with macronics 83c306 boards which has 8kb 1wait cache(cachechk at 46us/kb).

Reply 5 of 33, by noshutdown

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pshipkov wrote:
Btw, there are many motherboards out there that deliver good CPU/FPU/RAM performance, but suck at dealing with graphics. Funnily […]
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Btw, there are many motherboards out there that deliver good CPU/FPU/RAM performance, but suck at dealing with graphics.
Funnily enough, not far ago i spent some time to identify and benchmark some of the worst offenders in this department.
You think your FPS scores are not great ? There is much worse. For example pcpbench score of 1.5, 3dbench score of 7 and Doom fps of 2.
😀

i know, boards without cache are about that level, but its just hard for me to accept that this board scored so well in cache/ram tests and yet underwhelming in game tests(and even norton si, its not very accurate but 43.2pts is a common standard for any 386dx-40 with cache).
the isa clock is set to "clk2/10" as i believe that clk2 is the 80mhz crystal, so it should be the standard 8mhz and the same as other boards.

Reply 6 of 33, by feipoa

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What graphics card and bus are you using? I have a Daewoo AL486V-D, which is based on the M1429 A1 chipset and I noticed that graphics-based benchmarks were somewhat below average when I used an ISA graphics card. The results were seemed about where they should be when a VLB graphics card was used, that is, about a 20% performance gain with VLB over ISA.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 7 of 33, by noshutdown

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feipoa wrote:

What graphics card and bus are you using? I have a Daewoo AL486V-D, which is based on the M1429 A1 chipset and I noticed that graphics-based benchmarks were somewhat below average when I used an ISA graphics card. The results were seemed about where they should be when a VLB graphics card was used, that is, about a 20% performance gain with VLB over ISA.

i have posted a link to the info page of the board so its obviously an isa board, and i am using a cirrus5434.

Reply 8 of 33, by pshipkov

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Clock is set to "clk2/10" you say ? Does that mean the rest of the BIOS timings are not set for maximum performance ?
I am sure they are, just checking.

If the chipset istelf is not great, then there is nothing you can do, but in many cases the chipset is fine, just the BIOS is not good.
You can try treplacing it with a BIOS from better performing motherboard. This works most of the time on 386 systems, even for different chipset brands.
There is a good chance things get better.

I usually use BIOSes from two motherboards:
PC Chips M321 rev 2.3 (later revisions are starting to suck)
Unnamed Forex motherboard.

The M321 one is probably the fastest 386 mobo out there and the BIOS is really good. It can pimp-slap most systems into playing along.

On the same note - the most common problems with transplanting 386 BIOSes are:
- Only 1Mb of system memory is recognized. You can still run tests and actually use the motherboard, but there is nothing you can do to fix that - short of messing with the BIOS binary - which is not trivial.
- The implanted BIOS cannot talk to the IDE controller. In this case you can strap a SCSI adapter and move on.

I can share the BIOSes, if you are really determined to try improving the ALI graphics performance.

retro bits and bytes

Reply 9 of 33, by feipoa

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What chipset does the M321 use? The images I looked at show "PC CHIPS" on the chipset.

noshutdown wrote:

...m1429...386dx-40
...doom 7.7fps
...isa board, and i am using a cirrus5434.

My Daewoo board with an AMD DX-40 only scores 7.1 fps in DOOM using a CL GD-5434. It's ISA performance isn't very good for some reason. That is with full screen in the demo version of DOOM (no green frame around the action scene). For sake of comparison, if you put in an SXL-40, the performance increases to 11.3 fps (GD-5434) or 14.3 fps with a Trio64 VLB.

If you are using full-screen with mouse and sound disabled on the demo version of Doom and are getting 7.7 on the same chipset, I think that's fairly good.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 10 of 33, by noshutdown

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feipoa wrote:

What chipset does the M321 use? The images I looked at show "PC CHIPS" on the chipset.
My Daewoo board with an AMD DX-40 only scores 7.1 fps in DOOM using a CL GD-5434. It's ISA performance isn't very good for some reason. That is with full screen in the demo version of DOOM (no green frame around the action scene). For sake of comparison, if you put in an SXL-40, the performance increases to 11.3 fps (GD-5434) or 14.3 fps with a Trio64 VLB.

If you are using full-screen with mouse and sound disabled on the demo version of Doom and are getting 7.7 on the same chipset, I think that's fairly good.

i tested with screen size 2 steps below maximum, that is one bar of green frame around , because its the default setting when you download the shareware doom.

Reply 11 of 33, by noshutdown

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pshipkov wrote:

Clock is set to "clk2/10" you say ? Does that mean the rest of the BIOS timings are not set for maximum performance ?
I am sure they are, just checking.

whats that mean? i reckon that "clk2" refers to the 80mhz crystal, so it should be 8mhz which is standard for isa. i also tried 7.16mhz and its a little bit slower than clk2/10, so i believ its really running at 8mhz.

Reply 12 of 33, by feipoa

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Seems like the majority of people test with full screen in Doom. What framerate do you get on full-screen?

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 13 of 33, by alvaro84

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feipoa wrote:

Seems like the majority of people test with full screen in Doom. What framerate do you get on full-screen?

I test with the status bar but no green border. Which is, kind of full screen, this is the way I'd play it. Now I'm curious how others run their tests.

I've tried the difference between the 2134-frame shareware and my typical 3863-frame e3m3 demo and it seems that the e3m3 one gives the higher frame rate of the two. The difference is 38.26 vs 41.35 fps on my Digital Celebris P60@66.

Shame on us, doomed from the start
May God have mercy on our dirty little hearts

Reply 14 of 33, by Deunan

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The DOSBENCH suite uses a full-screen without borders or status bar for the "b" tests (and smallest possible window, low res enabled, for "a" test).
67us for cache miss is a great result compared to ~110us on OPTi. I get a lousy 10MB/s with 60ns DRAMs.

Reply 15 of 33, by pshipkov

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feipoa wrote:

What chipset does the M321 use? The images I looked at show "PC CHIPS" on the chipset.

http://www.petershipkov.com/temp/retro_pc_ima … motherboard.jpg

retro bits and bytes

Reply 16 of 33, by noshutdown

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feipoa wrote:

Seems like the majority of people test with full screen in Doom. What framerate do you get on full-screen?

i tried it and got 6.5fps, thats no good. whats your isa bus clock?

Reply 17 of 33, by alvaro84

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Deunan wrote:

The DOSBENCH suite uses a full-screen without borders or status bar for the "b" tests

I'll give it a try.

Shame on us, doomed from the start
May God have mercy on our dirty little hearts

Reply 18 of 33, by feipoa

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alvaro84 wrote:
feipoa wrote:

Seems like the majority of people test with full screen in Doom. What framerate do you get on full-screen?

I test with the status bar but no green border. Which is, kind of full screen, this is the way I'd play it. Now I'm curious how others run their tests.

Yes, that is how I test it now - status bar on (bottom of screen) and no green border.

noshutdown wrote:
feipoa wrote:

Seems like the majority of people test with full screen in Doom. What framerate do you get on full-screen?

i tried it and got 6.5fps, thats no good. whats your isa bus clock?

10 MHz.

pshipkov wrote:
feipoa wrote:

What chipset does the M321 use? The images I looked at show "PC CHIPS" on the chipset.

http://www.petershipkov.com/temp/retro_pc_ima … motherboard.jpg

What chipset is that? PC CHIPS is not a chipset brand. It is PC CHIPS having their brand put on another brand's chipset.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.