VOGONS


CRT gaming on period systems

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Reply 20 of 28, by kalm_traveler

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bestemor wrote:
kalm_traveler wrote:

...Anywho, this is the screen I ended up choosing for my retro rig - let me know what you think of it: https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/profess … el/UM.FB7AA.001

So, have you had time to test this one any further ? How do you like it ? Does it have a 'real' 75hz refresh, can you notice any difference from 60hz ? Etc....
Looking to buy a new 1920x1200 VGA IPS 75hz monitor myself, hence the interest. The Dell I found apparantly does NOT have any 75hz settings, though most of the 16:9 models do... :\

Yes I've been using it a bit with 2 retro PCs, a Playstation Classic, and a new Razer Blade Pro laptop.

Definitely a true 75Hz panel, and post-calibration the colors look great. With a full black screen there is one spot with some backlight bleed visible but with anything other than full black I don't notice it.

Nice thing I'd point out is that although it doesn't have DVI directly, using a DVI to HDMI cable, it handles low resolutions just fine (tested with some Windows 95 games, and Wolfenstein 3D in DOS) so I can continue to avoid VGA like the plague.

Retro: Win2k/98SE - P3 1.13ghz, 512mb PC133 SDRAM, Quadro4 980XGL, Aureal Vortex 2
modern:i9 10980XE, 64gb DDR4, 2x Titan RTX | i9 9900KS, 32gb DDR4, RTX 2080 Ti | '19 Razer Blade Pro

Reply 21 of 28, by cskamacska

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The monitor discussion should be seperated into a new topic, theres good info here, and its just buried under Win98 stuff.

the loyal slave learns to love the lash

Reply 22 of 28, by Stiletto

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cskamacska wrote:

The monitor discussion should be seperated into a new topic, theres good info here, and its just buried under Win98 stuff.

Did my best to split it off. Thanks for the recommendation!

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do the Fandango!" - Queen

Stiletto

Reply 23 of 28, by God Of Gaming

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Yeah, good thing, its just that my first post may seem pretty weird for a post starting a thread without the context of what I was replying to, someone might wonder what I was smoking "by starting this thread" 😀

1999 Dream PC project | DirectX 8 PC project | 2003 Dream PC project

Reply 24 of 28, by Stiletto

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God Of Gaming wrote:

Yeah, good thing, its just that my first post may seem pretty weird for a post starting a thread without the context of what I was replying to, someone might wonder what I was smoking "by starting this thread" 😀

It's never a perfect process. Detangling posts with multiple ongoing discussion subjects can be quite tricky, ultimately a moderator has to pick a place of "okay well the conversation on this subject for the most part started HERE" and run with it 😉

"I see a little silhouette-o of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you
do the Fandango!" - Queen

Stiletto

Reply 25 of 28, by Tiido

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duga3 wrote:

To achieve best blacks on CRT you need to lower the contrast to the point where black signal produces 0 cd/m2.

The contrast setting (actually RGB gain) should be maximised to a point where no clipping artifacts appear (i.e colored trails can appear going right of white details, the cathode amplifier transistors saturate and won't return from it immediately), it is the brightness setting (aka DC offset - black level) that needs to be toned down but also to a point where the video path won't clip, once that is done the acceleration voltage (G2) needs to be adjusted, which is often only possible with a screwdriver, and while at it the focus settings should be adjusted too (preferably in highest resolution and refresh rate you plan to use). Both of those often drift with time, or rather their preset value no longer corresponds to state of the tube.
The higher the acceleration voltage the better sharpness you can get and the brighter the image can be (dynamic range increases) but if the cathodes are worn enough the video amps no longer can drive them to cutoff state (no electrons pulled from the surface) and you get tinting of black or other dark colors (in color combination of weakest cathodes). This will also get you more headroom in the black end, so you wouldn't need as much additional correction by other means.
Sometimes it is possible to control the anode voltage too (couple tens of kV, depending on tube size) but it should be left alone without access to means to measure that voltage. Raster size and brightness will change, lowering voltage will expand the raster while image dims and increase will shrink the raster with increase of image brightness. Lower voltage pulls the electrons less hard and they can spend more time in the deflection field and thus reach higher deflection angles and so raster expands in size, they also slam slower into the phorphors and produce less light and less soft x-rays. X-ray production happens *always* but the amount of photons is very low (even on special xray production tubes, less than 1% of the electrons turn to x-ray photos) and all of them are absorbed by the glass. Here's some very good reading material on that matter : http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/CRTemissions.pdf. Too high anode voltage can result in various breakdowns and any dirt etc. might cause a conductive path from anode cap to deflection coils or nearby aquadag and in worst case the thin glass where neck is will experience dielectric breakdown and vacuum is lost.

All of this should only be done after at least 15 minutes of powering on the monitor (staying in standby won't count, it must be out of standby). Most of the tubes are fairly worn by now, cathodes will take a longer time to reach proper optimal conditions for their wear level. Electronic parts also require some warmup time but generally not very long. It is normal to see raster size change slightly after 10 minutes of use, part of it is caused by DC resistance change with temperature of various components such as the deflection coils and various transformers, slightly altering the current/voltage profiles compared to cold state, temperature coefficients of active component play a role also. My main monitor requires about 20 minutes until lower end no longer crushes and raster reaches final size.

Things lighting up in a black screen in presence of a bright spot (regardless of color) is caused by secondary emissions, electrons that get absorbed in the mask or grill will make the mask or grill create their own electron emission which creates faint greyscale (since those electrons no longer target specific phosphors) halos around the spots with greatest emissions. This is the primary limiter of contrast on a CRT and a similar thing happens on OLED panels too but there it is purely caused by light bleed and reflections inside the panel. Ambient light also has ability to make the phosphors glow but that's but that effect is also faint, you can test for it in a dark room : Close your eyes, flick light switch on and off, then look at the monitor, you should see a faint glow that will last tens of seconds. You need to have your eyes adapt to darkness first, which will take several minutes.

---

On topic, I use a CRT monitor even with modern stuff. Immediate response time, great contrast and color, variable refresh rates and resolutions still play a big role for games. 2560x1600 (but only at 60Hz) was also fun to see, and much to my surprise normal text was still readable... http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/HighRes0.JPG - http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/HighRes1.JPG 🤣

EDIT: Looks like my post will belong elsewhere too 🤣

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Reply 26 of 28, by foil_fresh

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i have a recent 24.5" AOC 240hz monitor - has DP, HDMI, DVI, VGA. The OSD controls allows the VGA to be scaled at 20 or so different formats and sizes. I use the 22" 16:10 preset for DOS and early win95 games, use the 4:3 mode for pretty much everything else and sometimes 5:4 if required, with the desktop running in full 1080 @ 85hz.

VGA input can get 140hz @ 640x480, 120hz @ 800x600 and then 100hz at higher resolutions up to a point where 85hz is still attainable (i remember 100hz at 640x480 on my diamondview monitor and then some phillips could do 120hz at 640).

yet to try dvi-d on a more powerful card (my examples are from a radeon 9600xt)

i would !!LOVE!! to be running a 21" trinitron instead, but its not feasible (unless i had a separate desk with enough depth to hold the titanic). I bought a 17" samsung that lasted about 4 mins before the red color completely faded away into nothingness so that was a sign to stay with the LED screen.

the one thing that i miss about the CRTs are the perfect pixels on lower resolutions... and of course the degauss button 😁

Reply 27 of 28, by God Of Gaming

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^why 16:10 for DOS and early windows? 320x200 is not supposed to be 16:10, its still 4:3 but with non-square pixels, you know?

1999 Dream PC project | DirectX 8 PC project | 2003 Dream PC project

Reply 28 of 28, by cde

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foil_fresh wrote:

i have a recent 24.5" AOC 240hz monitor - has DP, HDMI, DVI, VGA. The OSD controls allows the VGA to be scaled at 20 or so different formats and sizes. I use the 22" 16:10 preset for DOS and early win95 games, use the 4:3 mode for pretty much everything else and sometimes 5:4 if required, with the desktop running in full 1080 @ 85hz.

VGA input can get 140hz @ 640x480, 120hz @ 800x600 and then 100hz at higher resolutions up to a point where 85hz is still attainable (i remember 100hz at 640x480 on my diamondview monitor and then some phillips could do 120hz at 640).

I have a similar model from AOC, the G2590PX; it goes up to 144 Hz and has no trouble dealing with a number of vertical refresh rates (without frame dropping) over VGA. The forced 1:1, 17" 4:3 and 19" 4:3 are also super useful to get a correct aspect ratio. I do still prefer a CRT but these gaming AOC monitors are a very good alternative. OTOH DVI/HDMI is not really useful for DOS since the refresh rate is locked at 60 Hz by the graphics card, unless you use a hack to alter the pixel clock: Outputting 720x400@70Hz with the ATi R300 DVI output in DOS