Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-08-28, 19:55:

I used the CT-VOICE.DRV which comes with the AWE64 DOS driver (found in the C:\SB16\DRV directory).

I'm not too familiar with the different variations of this file though. If there's another version than I can try, let me know.

Yeah, there are a bit TOO many variations of this file, I've also had to search quite a bit to make it work...
I've attached the ones that work for me (for SB PRO and SB 16). I've just tested the SB16 version with the AWE64 and it works fine (once the speed gets below ~ Pentium 100 - 133 MHz).

So, in the meantime, I plugged the AWE64 (CT4520) in a VIA C3 Ezra-T/440BX build that I have on my desk.

When it comes to speed sensitivity, yeah, it's pretty much like I remember it. (i.e. in my case, on this platform, even Prince of Persia refuses to initialize both FM and digital sounds and reverts to PC Speaker sound, unless I get the speed below that of a Pentium 100 - 133 MHz). Furthermore, even when the CPU speed is lowered, the card (or its drivers) tends to behave erratically when launching multiple games in one session without rebooting (after running 5 - 10 games, I was experiencing weird issues with games like Duke3D, Lion King, Jazz Jackrabbit that were refusing to properly initialize the sound or simply crashing altogether; upon rebooting, the games ran fine). Here's a sample with this behavior when it occurred in Duke3D.

After testing almost 20 games (again), I would say that CQM can be tolerable in some games, while (for me) being unbearable in others. All in all, I would much rather have an OPL3 or ESFM card and enjoy all games with proper sound (FM synth). 😁
One thing I like about this card, though, is the fact that the PC speaker input works properly and sound can be heard in both the left and the right channels (as opposed to some cards like the ES1688 that for some reason redirect the PC speaker to the left channel only).

Just in case anyone is interested, here's some AWE64 Value CT4520 samples that I recorded in the following games (you can find the playlist here):
01. Prince of Persia (PC speaker - speed sensitivity behavior)
02. Prince of Persia (CQM)
03. Dyna Blaster (CQM)
04. Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis (CQM)
05. Monkey Island (CQM)
06. Monkey Island 2 (CQM)
07. Titus the Fox (CQM - speed sensitivity issues/missing sound samples) - this game usually initializes the sound properly only with CPUs slower than 486-DX33. If CPU speed is greater than that, it's either missing quite a few sound samples (as shown here), or simply reverts to PC Speaker. I was actually surprised that, at this speed (~ Pentium 133 equivalent), with the AWE64, it was still able to detect the FM chip (albeit with missing sound samples).
08. Titus the Fox (CQM - proper speed ~ 486SX-25)
09. Super Nibbly (CQM)
10. Volfied (CQM)
11. Duke Nukem 3D (CQM)
12. Doom (CQM)
13. Lemmings (CQM)
14. Prehistorik (CQM)
15. Loom (CQM)

bloodem wrote on 2022-08-29, 08:22:

Yeah, there are a bit TOO many variations of this file, I've also had to search quite a bit to make it work...
I've attached the ones that work for me (for SB PRO and SB 16). I've just tested the SB16 version with the AWE64 and it works fine (once the speed gets below ~ Pentium 100 - 133 MHz).

I tried your SB16 version of CT-VOICE.DRV and digital sound now works in Prehistorik when L1 cache is disabled. At full speed, I still get the "Sound Blaster not detected" message.

Next, I will place my ESS 1868F in this system and see how it behaves with the games that I tested on the AWE64. Should be an interesting comparison.

And here are the tests with my ESS 1868F on the same AhlonXP 1700+ system at full speed:

• Dyna Blaster - music works, digital sound doesn't
• Prehistorik - music works, digital sound doesn't
• Lemmings - music works (game doesn't have digital sound effects?)
• Golden Axe - music works, sound effects play through the PC speaker (expected behavior?)
• Prince of Persia - music works, digital sound works

If I disable L1 cache via SetMul, then digital sound in Dyna Blaster and Prehistorik works fine. So, on this system running at full speed, the ESS card behaves the same as the AWE64, with the exception of Prince of Persia. For the most part, both cards need the system to be slowed down to work correctly with these games.

It should also be noted that all of these games were made well before 1995. Later DOS games rarely have speed sensitivity issues.

Ok interesting. One more question. For late dos games would it be better to have awe64 cqm or SB16 OPL3?

I forgot, there are two games whoch are bit older that im playing, one is stunts 4D and GP1. Both work atleast on a P4 2,0 with a SB live without issues

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-08-29, 11:01:

And here are the tests with my ESS 1868F on the same AhlonXP 1700+ System at full speed: […]
Show full quote

And here are the tests with my ESS 1868F on the same AhlonXP 1700+ System at full speed:

• Dyna Blaster - music works, digital sound doesn't
• Prehistorik - music works, digital sound doesn't
• Lemmings - music works (game doesn't have digital sound effects?)
• Golden Axe - music works, sound effects play through the PC speaker (expected behavior?)
• Prince of Persia - music works, digital sound works

If I disable L1 cache via SetMul, then digital sound in Dyna Blaster and Prehistorik works fine. So, on this system running at full speed, the ESS card behaves the same as the AWE64, with the exception of Prince of Persia. For the most part, both cards need the system to be slowed down to work correctly with these games.

It should also be noted that all of these games were made well before 1995. Later DOS games rarely have speed sensitivity issues.

Very interesting but not unexpected results. As always with DOS, the platform is extremely important (which is why it's always so hard to recommend a combo that will just work 😀 ).
Based on my experience (including the tests I did today) on 440BX chipset motherboards, ESS chips have a clear advantage when it comes to speed sensitivity. Like, for instance, in your case Prince of Persia worked fine on both, while for me digital sounds and FM synth were not initialized with the AWE64 (despite the fact that my CPU is much slower than yours). On the same motherboard, sound is properly initialized with both an ESS ES1688 card and an ESS ES688+OPL3 card (not to mention the generally unstable/finicky behavior that I saw with the AWE64, which does not occur with ESS cards).

I do remember, though, that even when using a card like the Yamaha YMF724 on VIA KTxxx boards, compatibility is extremely good and games that usually have sound related issues behave a lot better, so these chipsets are definitely special.

atom1kk wrote on 2022-08-29, 11:54:

Ok interesting. One more question. For late dos games would it be better to have awe64 cqm or SB16 OPL3?

If we're comparing OPL3 vs. CQM then genuine OPL3 will always win. That said, with the AWE64 you also have the option to use its on-board wavetable in AWE32 mode instead of limiting yourself to FM synth via CQM. Here's a comparison between the two:

• Duke3D - CQM
• Duke3D - AWE32 mode

While the on-board wavetable on AWE cards isn't that great, it should at least sound nicer than CQM in games which support both.

alternatives to speak about, i have also on ebay an option with the ESS 1868 and 1869 for the same price. What would be than a better choice compared to the AWE64? and whould it be a better choice at all?

Those 3 i have as option, ESS A111, ESS 230X-3 3D WAVETABLE, ESS MPB-000036

atom1kk wrote on 2022-08-29, 12:12:

alternatives to speak about, i have also on ebay an option with the ESS 1868 and 1869 for the same price. What would be than a better choice compared to the AWE64? and whould it be a better choice at all?

Those 3 i have as option, ESS A111, ESS 230X-3 3D WAVETABLE, ESS MPB-000036

See Joseph's and my previous posts 😀

TL;DR: It will greatly depend on your platform and the games you play. If you're more interested in late DOS games, the AWE64 might be better suited (but if you encounter issues like I just have, you will definitely not like it).

As for the ESS ES1868, it's definitely a very good and compatible card, but most of them have a worse build quality than some older ESS products like the ES1688 / ES688. So you might end up with a noisy card that even suffers from distortion or clipping (which, again, you will definitely not like). This can be somewhat mitigated if you have good quality powered speakers, which would allow you to disable the sound card's onboard amplifier (unless you get a VERY cheap card that doesn't even have those jumpers).

ok, than ill give the AWE64 the first try and we will see later how it works. BTW, is it possible to run An isa and pci soundcard parallel?

You could run as many sound cards as you want in any type of slot or connection as long as the resources to allocate to them are available (IRQ, DMA, I/O, etc.).

but the question is how driver wise windows and dos will handle them parallel

mkarcher wrote on 2022-08-28, 11:44:

atom1kk wrote on 2022-08-28, 10:02:

one last question maybe, the most games in the setup say SB16/32AWE, will be AWE64 compatible with them?

Yes, perfectly compatible. There are two primary differences between the AWE32 and the AWE64: The AWE64 has newer, higher integrated chips that make it cheaper to produce, and it has a driver that adds 32 software voices ("WaveGuide") to the 32 voices[1] provided by the EMU8000 synthesizer chip (thus the name "64" instead of "32"). Both of these differences don't affect DOS gaming at all.

1: Actually, some of the 32 "voices" of the EMU8000 synthesizer are used for internal purposes, and only around 29 voices are actually available for music synthesis.

The three differences that matter for us IRE AWE 32 vs 64:
1) 64 has newer DSP which does not suffer from either the clicking or ringing with single cycle DMA (this is big if you ask me)
2) said newer DSP also is bug free with MIDI
3) certain older 32s have genuine OPL, all 64s have CQM

maxtherabbit wrote on 2022-08-29, 14:59:

2) said newer DSP also is bug free with MIDI

I guess it depends if you consider the build engine slowdowns a bug or not (or if you consider it a game engine bug or a sound card bug). 😁
Since this issue is (as far as I know) specific to late Creative cards (actually, all Creative cards that have an MPU-401/wavetable header), then I think we can safely say that the cards themselves are to blame, ergo they are not entirely bug free. 😀

atom1kk wrote on 2022-08-29, 13:35:

but the question is how driver wise windows and dos will handle them parallel

Windows doesn't need to load DOS drivers and DOS doesn't load Windows drivers, however some drivers for emulating sound for DOS for Sound Blaster Live! or Vortex 2 are used (as long as the Windows driver is loaded first). To verify your sound card settings/resources assigned for DOS within Windows, open a command prompt and type SET. You will a line with SET BLASTER and this is the DOS settings DOS games and programs will use for sound when running in a DOS window. Again, these settings don't apply when you drop into DOS mode. You can specify MIDI devices in the Sound & Multimedia settings of the Windows control panel, by the way.

What you should be doing is configuring PIF shortcuts with the commands, variables, and environment necessary to run the DOS game or program if the DOS game or program won't run from a DOS window/full screen from within Windows. Alternatively, you can configure DOSSTART.BAT for command which should execute automatically when dropping into DOS mode from Windows. Put universal commands here which will apply to all of your DOS games and programs; perhaps a mouse or MSCDEX, for example.

Check here to learn more:
https://madsenworld.dk/con_auto/index-uk.htm

atom1kk wrote on 2022-08-29, 11:54:

Ok interesting. One more question. For late dos games would it be better to have awe64 cqm or SB16 OPL3?

Check this out:
https://youtu.be/24ScDNeQoZ8?t=2489
Really nice comparison. Drums on OPL3 sound better imho.

In late DOS games you'll also have access to the AWE32 sound mode with the AWE64.
But I some cases I prefer OPL3 over AWE32. Warcraft II for example:
https://youtu.be/g_MmcxFi-NM?t=3010
The trumpets give me headache.
Or just use the Battle.net version, which uses audio recordings of the Roland Sound Canvas 55 (external MIDI module, very expensive), hehe:
https://youtu.be/0ndCckv-lww

In Doom I prefer AWE32 over OPL3:
https://youtu.be/24ScDNeQoZ8?t=665
https://youtu.be/tVJ9Dmgly0g

Truly late dos games had already swtiched to redbook audio, and prior to that midi. It's really only early 90s games that relied solely on adlib music, although many continued to support it.

RaiderOfLostVoodoo wrote on 2022-08-31, 01:58:

Or just use the Battle.net version, which uses audio recordings of the Roland Sound Canvas 55 (external MIDI module, very expensive)

Even the original DOS version of WarCraft 2 had CD (redbook) audio, giving you the highest possible music quality at the time. While the developers did also include FM synth and General MIDI support, the game used CD audio by default.

As mentioned earlier, later DOS games were moving away from FM synth and General MIDI, opting for either sample-based music (e.g. Jazz Jackrabbit), compressed PCM music (e.g. Command & Conquer) or CD audio music (e.g. Heroes of Might and Magic 2).

So got my p3 mainboard today. It has a p3 800. The cool thing is, it has fsb adjustment onboard, so i can slowdown it to 400mhz if i need. Now waiting for the awe64 to arrive.

Now i can also think about getting a voodoo 2 😉

Interesting fact. Before i had a 478 board and tried it to slowdown as possible with a celeron 1.7( lowest 478 cpu).

With a p4 2.0 and a gf2 ti i reached 8400 points in 3dmark2000. With the celeron 6200. With the p3 800 i got 6100. I read already that the celeron is crap, but this 😁

Sound Blaster: From best to worst

+

If you're (really) rich, the Ad Lib Gold with the surround module, definitively.

So got my AWE 64 today. tried it on some games and it seems to work without any problems. If I have time on Weeknd, I will try most of my games