I will run it with a P3 1ghz.

What about this ess card?

Or what should i look at the ess cards.

atom1kk wrote on 2022-08-28, 14:01:

What about this ess card?

That's the other way to approach the soundcard situation. The ESS card is perfectly SB Pro compatible. Neither the ESS card nor the AWE64 card have an original OPL3 synthesizer, but both use clones that do not violate Yamaha's intellectual property. Generally, the ESS clone ("ESFM") is considered superior to Creative's clone (CQM). The ESS card is NOT SB16 compatible. It also is not SB16 compatible, so as far as I know the only way to get 16-bit sound is having a game that supports the proprietary ESS 16-bit mode.

This card has a WaveBlaster upgrade option and does not have any MIDI bugs (unlike many SB16 cards), so it would be a possible base card if you want to get a waveblaster add-on later.

atom1kk wrote on 2022-08-28, 14:01:

I will run it with a P3 1ghz.

What about this ess card?

Or what should i look at the ess cards.

I'm dumping Creative for anything DOS. The trade-offs and hang-ups aren't worth it given the quality of the alternatives. I also read in these forums there's a number of games claiming 16-bit sound which are actually still 8-bit. So, that reduces the value of SB16 compatibility for me - the only reason I irrational hung on to Creative.

In summary concerning Creative ISA, we have: MIDI problems, finicky/problematic models, SB16 which is not as necessary as I imagined, often a lack of wavetable header, lousy CQM, and a necessity for a second sound card to remedy most of these problems. What's the point for even considering Creative with ESS around? This probably depends on how old the games you play. For games I usually play such as Tomb Raider and Terminator Future Shock/SkyNET, for example, support ESS Audiodrive mode, anyway.

Here's a feature comparison of the ESS models:
https://web.archive.org/web/19970626173032/ht … eatur_comp.html

At this point, all of my Creative ISA cards have joined ATI Rage 128 cards on the bench as 2nd-stringers.

ESS for ISA or bust (although I'm very much looking forward to trying out the MK8330 once my order arrives. http://www.pcmidi.eu/mk8330.html)

Meatball wrote on 2022-08-28, 16:53:

I also read in these forums there's a number of games claiming 16-bit sound which are actually still 8-bit. So, that reduces the value of SB16 compatibility for me - the only reason I irrational hung on to Creative.

I had a SB16 as a kid, and to me, later DOS games (made in 1995 and onward) just don't sound right on a SBPro. The muffled output simply isn't what I remember. Using either SB16, ESS AudioDrive or WSS is much more pleasing to my ears. BTW, @Cloudshatze made a list of games which use 16-bit sound, though I've found others that aren't mentioned there as well.

My advice to the OP, if you don't plan on connecting an external MIDI device (e.g. a Roland Sound Canvas) and don't mind CQM instead of genuine OPL3, then go with the AWE64. It's a decent starting card. Once you get more experienced, you can pair it with another sound card which has genuine OPL3 (or ESFM) and doesn't suffer from MIDI bugs, if you find that you need that functionality.

atom1kk wrote on 2022-08-28, 14:01:

I will run it with a P3 1ghz.

Then I would strongly advise against using Creative ISA cards, which exhibit speed sensitivity related issues on fast systems (effectively losing a lot of their usual excellent game compatibility).

atom1kk wrote on 2022-08-28, 14:01:

What about this ess card?

Or what should i look at the ess cards.

That's a typical ES1868F card. This chip has excellent DOS compatibility, but unfortunately it was used on many ultra-cheap/OEM cards (which resulted in poor sound quality and noisy output).
That card on eBay seems to be one of the better models.
Phil reviewed an ES1868 on Youtube. You can watch it and decide for yourself if such a card would suit your needs or not. 😀
What I can tell you is that this card is without a doubt less speed sensitive than any Creative ISA card, so it would definitely be my first choice for a P3 1 GHz.

bloodem wrote on 2022-08-28, 17:15:

Then I would strongly advise against using Creative ISA cards, which exhibit speed sensitivity related issues on fast systems (effectively losing a lot of their usual excellent game compatibility).

Do we have some concrete examples of this on AWE64s? I was under the impression that it was mostly cards with genuine OPL3 which suffered from speed issues when playing FM synth music.

I used an AWE64 with an AthlonXP 1700+ for a couple of months and didn't notice any particular problems, other than the known speed sensitive games not working correctly without cache disabling, throttle etc.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-08-28, 17:22:

Do we have some concrete examples of this on AWE64s? I was under the impression that it was mostly cards with genuine OPL3 which suffered from speed issues when playing FM synth music.

I used an AWE64 with an AthlonXP 1700+ for a couple of months and didn't notice any particular problems, other than the known speed sensitive games not working without cache disabling, throttle etc.

I think it's yet another one of those cases where the actual games one plays are of utmost importance. 😀
It's been a long time since I last tested one of the AWE64 cards (especially on fast systems), but I distinctly remember them having random issues (digital sounds/FM that failed to initialize in games that don't typically exhibit sound related speed sensitivity or, even if they do, they still work fine with ESS cards). Off the top of my head, I think these games included Dyna Blaster, Prehistorik, Lemmings, Golden Axe (and maybe even Prince of Persia?).

Not sure how the AWE64 would behave on AthlonXP/newer VIA platforms. Did you try all games with the CPU's full speed? Either way, it wouldn't surprise me if VIA actually works better with these cards (these late VIA chipsets have always pleasantly surprised me when it came to compatibility).
I don't have an Athlon XP compatible board with ISA slots (motherboards such as the Abit KT7A have always eluded me 🙁 ), so the fastest system I tested with an AWE64 was most likely a 440BX/Pentium 3 build (and, as we know, Pentium 3s are not flexible in terms of speed - you can either run them too fast or very slow).

bloodem wrote on 2022-08-28, 17:42:

so the fastest system I tested with an AWE64 was most likely a 440BX/Pentium 3 build (and, as we know, Pentium 3s are not flexible in terms of speed - you can either run them too fast or very slow

I'm hardly an expert when it comes to DOS, but P3 seems flexible enough to me? I've tested throttle and setmul using Doom benchmark from PhilsComputerLab DOS Benchmark Pack with my P3 650MHz and after comparing the results to other hardware I came up with this:

THROTTLE.EXE 1 -C = ~500 MHz Pentium III?
THROTTLE.EXE 2 -C = ~400MHz Pentium II?
THROTTLE.EXE 3 -C = ~233MHz Pentium MMX
THROTTLE.EXE 4 -C = ~133MHz Pentium
THROTTLE.EXE 5 -C = ~90MHz Pentium
THROTTLE.EXE 6 -C = ~75MHz 486DX4
THROTTLE.EXE 7 -C = ~40MHz 486DX2
SETMUL.EXE L1D = ~33MHz 386SX

I've been able to find a good speed for all speed sensitive games so far.

bloodem wrote on 2022-08-28, 17:42:

Off the top of my head, I think these games included Dyna Blaster, Prehistorik, Lemmings, Golden Axe (and maybe even Prince of Persia?).

From that list, I played Prince of Persia and Lemmings, and I think they both worked fine at full CPU speed.

It's been a while since I tried this though, but I guess I can temporarily pop a CT4520 AWE64 into my AthlonXP machine and test some of those games again.

Sombrero wrote on 2022-08-28, 17:59:

THROTTLE.EXE 1 -C = ~500 MHz Pentium III? THROTTLE.EXE 2 -C = ~400MHz Pentium II? THROTTLE.EXE 3 -C = ~233MHz Pentium MMX THROTT […]
Show full quote

THROTTLE.EXE 1 -C = ~500 MHz Pentium III?
THROTTLE.EXE 2 -C = ~400MHz Pentium II?
THROTTLE.EXE 3 -C = ~233MHz Pentium MMX
THROTTLE.EXE 4 -C = ~133MHz Pentium
THROTTLE.EXE 5 -C = ~90MHz Pentium
THROTTLE.EXE 6 -C = ~75MHz 486DX4
THROTTLE.EXE 7 -C = ~40MHz 486DX2
SETMUL.EXE L1D = ~33MHz 386SX

I've been able to find a good speed for all speed sensitive games so far.

How many games did you test? Throttle is not an option on 440BX chipsets (at least past step 2). It can work fine in some games, but more often than not it will create very bad image and sound stutters. The Doom timedemo, 3DBench 1.0c and other tests from Phil's benchmark pack will NOT show these issues.
Throttle does work better on VIA chipsets, but even on those it will start causing issues past step 9 or so.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-08-28, 17:10:

I had a SB16 as a kid, and to me, later DOS games (made in 1995 and onward) just don't sound right on a SBPro. The muffled output simply isn't what I remember. Using either SB16, ESS AudioDrive or WSS is much more pleasing to my ears. BTW, @Cloudshatze made a list of games which use 16-bit sound, though I've found others that aren't mentioned there as well.

Thanks for the link and refresher on the 16-bit games!

Like I said/agree/a number of others have said, it depends on the games. Of that entire list, I play:

Command & Conquer - There's a Windows 95 version w/DirectSound I prefer.
Red Alert - There's a Windows 95 version w/DirectSound I prefer.
Quake - Winquake or Glide/OpenGL version for Windows I prefer
Descent II - There's a Windows 95 version, but I don't play it. However, for the DOS version only the sound effects would be 8-bit; the music option I overwhelmingly prefer MIDI
Blood - Only the sound effects would be 8-bit; for the music option I overwhelmingly prefer MIDI

Crusader No Remorse/No Regret is all that is left. Ughh... I admit these two are a gut punch because I love these games and they deserve 16-bit music. The MK8330 (which you pointed to me earlier, and I subsequently purchased) or an original CMI8330-based card (I own an AV310) is the workaround, though, if I were not going to use an ESS card and wanted to stay at single card setup.

bloodem wrote on 2022-08-28, 18:18:

Sombrero wrote on 2022-08-28, 17:59:

THROTTLE.EXE 1 -C = ~500 MHz Pentium III? THROTTLE.EXE 2 -C = ~400MHz Pentium II? THROTTLE.EXE 3 -C = ~233MHz Pentium MMX THROTT […]
Show full quote

THROTTLE.EXE 1 -C = ~500 MHz Pentium III?
THROTTLE.EXE 2 -C = ~400MHz Pentium II?
THROTTLE.EXE 3 -C = ~233MHz Pentium MMX
THROTTLE.EXE 4 -C = ~133MHz Pentium
THROTTLE.EXE 5 -C = ~90MHz Pentium
THROTTLE.EXE 6 -C = ~75MHz 486DX4
THROTTLE.EXE 7 -C = ~40MHz 486DX2
SETMUL.EXE L1D = ~33MHz 386SX

I've been able to find a good speed for all speed sensitive games so far.

How many games did you test? Throttle is not an option on 440BX chipsets (at least past step 2). It can work fine in some games, but more often than not it will create very bad image and sound stutters. The Doom timedemo, 3DBench 1.0c and other tests from Phil's benchmark pack will NOT show these issues.

Throttle seems to work just fine on my Abit BX133-RAID which is a 440BX board? The doom benchmark results changes accordingly with the throttle setting and the games I've tried seem to do the same. But I haven't tried many games that I know to be speed sensitive, looking at the list of CPU speed sensitive games from vogons wiki I've tried:

- Alone in the Dark
- One Must Fall 2097
- Syndicate
- Warcraft: Orcs & Humans

Only Syndicate doesn't like throttle at all and was very stuttery with it, though it works just fine at full 650MHz speed so I don't think it's speed sensitive at all.

bloodem wrote on 2022-08-28, 17:42:

Off the top of my head, I think these games included Dyna Blaster, Prehistorik, Lemmings, Golden Axe (and maybe even Prince of Persia?).

Ok, did some testing with these using the CT4520 on my AhlonXP 1700+ at full speed. Here are the results:

• Dyna Blaster - music works, digital sound doesn't
• Prehistorik - music works, digital sound doesn't
• Lemmings - music works (game doesn't have digital sound effects?)
• Golden Axe - music works, sound effects play through the PC speaker (expected behavior?)
• Prince of Persia - music works, digital sound doesn't

If I disable L1 cache via SetMul, then digital sound in Prince of Persia and Dyna Blaster works fine. Prehistorik cannot detect a Sound Blaster regardless of L1 cache status, despite CT-VOICE.DRV being present in the game's directory.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-08-28, 19:23:

Ok, did some testing with these using the CT4520 on my AhlonXP 1700+ at full speed. Here are the results: […]
Show full quote

Ok, did some testing with these using the CT4520 on my AhlonXP 1700+ at full speed. Here are the results:

• Dyna Blaster - music works, digital sound doesn't
• Prehistorik - music works, digital sound doesn't
• Lemmings - music works (game doesn't have digital sound effects?)
• Golden Axe - music works, sound effects play through the PC speaker (expected behavior?)
• Prince of Persia - music works, digital sound doesn't

If I disable L1 cache via SetMul, then digital sound in Prince of Persia and Dyna Blaster works fine. Prehistorik cannot detect a Sound Blaster regardless of L1 cache status, despite CT-VOICE.DRV being present in the game's directory.

Thanks for the quick tests.
Regarding Prehistorik, are you using the correct CT-VOICE.DRV (the one for SB16)? If not, it will fail to detect a sound blaster.

Sombrero wrote on 2022-08-28, 18:41:

Throttle seems to work just fine on my Abit BX133-RAID which is a 440BX board? The doom benchmark results changes accordingly wi […]
Show full quote

Throttle seems to work just fine on my Abit BX133-RAID which is a 440BX board? The doom benchmark results changes accordingly with the throttle setting and the games I've tried seem to do the same. But I haven't tried many games that I know to be speed sensitive, looking at the list of CPU speed sensitive games from vogons wiki I've tried:

- Alone in the Dark
- One Must Fall 2097
- Syndicate
- Warcraft: Orcs & Humans

Only Syndicate doesn't like throttle at all and was very stuttery with it, though it works just fine at full 650MHz speed so I don't think it's speed sensitive at all.

As I said, the Doom timedemo is irrelevant and will work fine with Throttle without showing any weird behavior.
The fact that you only tested a few games explains why you only saw the behavior once (even though it’s very common).

Also, the list of speed sensitive games is not even close to being complete. In fact, that list mostly ignores games that have sound related speed sensitivity.

But theoretically, i have switches on the board to set multiplier and bus. I should be able to throttle it down lets say to around 600 mhz if i lower the multiplier?

I think i start with the awe64 and see where it goes. My oldest dos game is from 1995. I hope it will work fine with them. This week i get my board and setup the system. Lets see how it goes. The board is equipped with a p3 800 ill start with that. The most demanding games i have for the system are nfs 5 and operation flashpoint 1. Maybe 800 will be enough. The gpu is a gf2 ti

atom1kk wrote on 2022-08-28, 19:44:

But theoretically, i have switches on the board to set multiplier and bus. I should be able to throttle it down lets say to around 600 mhz if i lower the multiplier?

All of these CPUs have a factory locked multiplier, so modifying the motherboard’s multiplier jumpers will have no effect.
So you are only left with the FSB option, which will show little to no impact for older DOS games. However, if you don’t play such games you should be totally fine.

But modyfing the fsb settings?

bloodem wrote on 2022-08-28, 19:42:

Thanks for the quick tests.
Regarding Prehistorik, are you using the correct CT-VOICE.DRV (the one for SB16)? If not, it will fail to detect a sound blaster.

I used the CT-VOICE.DRV which comes with the AWE64 DOS driver (found in the C:\SB16\DRV directory).

I'm not too familiar with the different variations of this file though. If there's another version than I can try, let me know.

atom1kk wrote on 2022-08-25, 21:40:

Thanks for all the explanation, but im not smarter at all after this:D. So what would be your suggestion than. The awe or rhe sb 16 card?

In all games i see the SB16 option to choose the sound, so i think this might be the better choice?

That means the games offer SB16 digital audio. That's a standard. Many chips/cards support that standard:

All the many Creative SB16, AWE32 and AWE64 options (the latter two are just SB16 with an extra MIDI synth bolted on)
Avance Logic ALS100 (and partially on ALS100+ and 120)
C-Media CMI8330
(and a bunch of off-topic PCI cards via nasty TSR emulation)

In theory, so long as the standard is supported, it should work and sound the same. In practice it's more complicated, but as already pointed out, even Creative cards aren't all perfect in that respect.

One complication mentioned is speed-related compatibility issues in faster systems. I must say I've never noticed them on my P3-600 system with AWE64 card, but if you want to be safe, avoid Creative ISA cards on faster DOS systems. As already mentioned in the first few replies, the best SB16 card at present is the MK8330, using the C-Media CMI8330 chip.

Apart from being a fanboy, the only reason to use a 'real' Creative card at this point is if you can get them cheap (which you seem to be able to do) or you actively want the SB16 bugs & warts out of nostalgia 😉

bloodem wrote on 2022-08-28, 19:42:

As I said, the Doom timedemo is irrelevant and will work fine with Throttle without showing any weird behavior.
The fact that you only tested a few games explains why you only saw the behavior once (even though it’s very common).

Also, the list of speed sensitive games is not even close to being complete. In fact, that list mostly ignores games that have sound related speed sensitivity.

I have no doubt the list is very incomplete, Gabriel Knight is one game that should be on it and I bet there are many others. Alright, I'll start testing with all the games I like were they speed sensitive or not and see how many of them have issues with Throttle. Still not going to be biggest and most comprehensive test ever, but at least it should tell me are there more issues using throttle than I've thought.

I'll see if I can get some results by next weekend.