mattrock1988 wrote:

So out of curiosity, what system would you prefer?

WRT which question?

I think instant runoff (and other systems like it) delivers a far more representative result than first-past-the-post.

If you mean democracy more generally, I think it's the least bad system of societies determining their leadership and direction.

But I don't buy that democracy literally means "rule by half of the people +1". To me, that isn't democracy, it's mob rule.

Democracy to me means having a clear mandate from the electorate. A 50/50 split within a few % to me says undecided, time to take the policy back to the drawing board, and return to the people with an altered plan to try to get stronger direction.

vetz wrote:

Now you brits are going to experience customs hell when ordering anything from the EU (and anywhere else abroad). Just like us Norwegians.

That's sort of good thing, limits the money going out of the country. But it hurts trade.

The EU now has 1 GB more space 😊

Jade Falcon wrote:

vetz wrote:

Now you brits are going to experience customs hell when ordering anything from the EU (and anywhere else abroad). Just like us Norwegians.

That's sort of good thing, limits the money going out of the country. But it hurts trade.

In a globalized world, in a country that enjoyed free trade for decades with their neighbours, no longer having a commonwealth to milk dry, if it hurts trade, it hurts the economy...

The apparent 50/50 split is misleading. I reckon that:

- Less than 20% of voters were sure they wanted to leave.
- More than 30% of voters were sure they wanted to stay.
- That means around 50% of voters weren't sure and ticked a box anyway.

The message about unhealthy bureaucracy did not get through. Most people voted on the propaganda that we should take back control of our borders. The simple fact is that no one knows what the consequences will be of this move (if it even happens, which it may not). If it were possible to show each individual how their own lives will be different in 5 years then maybe people could have made an informed vote. The only 'informed' vote was to stay, because we know what things are like right now. And if you think they're crappy, go live in Africa for a year.

They should have had another box to tick: 'not sure'. If that vote is greater than some arbitrary figure, you have to wait another 6 months then have another vote until there are enough solid votes. It's clear that a higher proportion of the population voted than normal but it's also clear that many people would now change their vote if they could.

Ass-hats.

brassicGamer wrote:

Most people voted on the propaganda that we should take back control of our borders.

Actually the propaganda machine is working like crazy to keep Britain in the EU. Just read the news. Otherwise only 10% of people would have voted for staying in. They sure should take back control of their borders and get their jobs back too.

While I believe that British people made the right choice, regardless of Brexit as a topic, I beg to differ with some views here on the election process. No one can predict the future, that's a fact. Even if you discarded the outcome if it was too close to fifty-fifty and repeated the voting process, how would you be able to ensure that the (now) unsure voters would cast an informed vote in the "next referendum" (after 3, 6, 12, etc months)? It's now that the subject is on the table, so an action is to be taken right now. Even if late, better late than never. Take corruption into consideration, and the subject (whatever subject) could easily be forgotten. You don't want a procrastination-based state. However high or low the percentage is, it reflects all people who are called to vote, whatever their literacy, social, financial status is. That's your majority, let them get what they ask for. Propaganda-driven or not, what people vote is what they deserve. And, I believe that it's better to vote for something and regret it later, than take no part in the process whatsoever.

What impressed me about of all this is that the majority, as small as it might be, chose the unknown over the current situation. Often we don't know what we want, but we do know what we don't want. To me this shows just how disgruntled with the current situation a lot of people are.

Regarding the Google spikes, I can only speak for myself, but I don't care much about politics. But when the results are in I do spend some time researching how it might affect me and make adjustments in my life if needed.

I don't see this as a big deal to be honest, the show will go on, the UK and EU will be just fine.

psychz wrote:

You don't want a procrastination-based state. However high or low the percentage is, it reflects all people who are called to vote, whatever their literacy, social, financial status is.

I agree with this. I was just reacting to the sheer number of people who are now regretting their decision.

brassicGamer wrote:

the sheer number of people who are now regretting their decision.

Ha, should have seen the "Grexit-related" referendum over here last year, which turned out to be completely irrelevent... Our PM managed to turn the "no" into a "yes", relying on the generality surrounding the question asked. Talk about deceit! People who regretted their vote were at ease afterwards 🤣

@SquallStrife - I think PM Cameron should have mandated that a certain percentage would be declared a winning side then. Not sure if the rules allow for it though.

@Everyone - I will say, everyone here seems genuinely level headed about the results of Brexit. I go on reddit and Twitter and it feels too toxic. Even with SquallStrife in some disagreement, I very much appreciate he didn't drop words like racist and xenophobic, which are simply knee-jerk and intellectually lazy terms. The mob rule component was commenting about the voting process itself. I might be in disagreement, since the rules dictated nothing about a minimum vote requirement, just simple majority. However, the discourse here has been nothing short of professional.

I seem to have the opposite opinion compared to what most of you think - I really don't think choosing to leave the EU is a good thing for the UK, at least in terms of the next 10 or so years.

FWIW, I'm not from the UK (Australian who lives in Germany), but from what I read in the leadup to this referendum, every economist both before, and in the aftermath, have warned that things are (economically) looking grim. The UK is predominantly a service-based economy, and losing access to the common market will really hurt them. London's financial sector will have to move to either then mainland or Ireland to maintain operations in the EU. Frankfurt is already licking its lips with anticipation of lots of financial sector jobs coming to the city. Tons of EU funding in the UK will cease, and regions such as Wales (where 4bil GBP of EU funding has been pumped into since 2000) and farming regions (where EU funds are provided under the Common Agriculture Policy) will be SOL when those funds stop... Will the UK Government provide these funds from the cash they save by not having to pay up to the EU? If a national treasure like the NHS isn't getting that money, then I doubt these regions which currently receive EU funds will.

And even though I never voted, nor does this affect me to the extent it affects English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh people, I feel angry that the Leave leaders deceived voters. Examples include Nigel Farage's statement that the 350m odd GBP pledged to the NHS (by a DIFFERENT Leave campaign) was in fact not going to happen THE DAY BEFORE the referendum, statements from UKIP that almost 50 EU trade deals will still remain valid for the UK after Brexit (which is false), that the UK will have to take part in a "European Army"... it all screams of deceit, poor campaigning and extreme mis-management.

As for EU regulations suffocating the UK, well what can they do about that by leaving? The only thing that will change will be that they now have no say in drafting/amending/etc these regulations - companies who want to trade in the EU common market will still have to abide by the regulations anyway. So instead of working to streamline or reduce regulatory hell, they just leave? That makes no sense to me at all!

And what of the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland? Suddenly, that will become an EU border - this must surely mean the border will need strengthening. Could this lead to increased violence in a region that had a bombing as recent as March this year? Who knows what will happen there.

Finally, I feel as though the Scots and Northern Irish have been screwed over in this whole thing. The English had a massive sway in what the overall outcome was going to be due to population alone, and I feel that the Scottish population in particular (having a 62% Stay result) were lied to back when they had their own referendum to leave the UK - in the end, they decided to stay based on a "promise" that the UK would not leave the EU. Well look where we are now - I fully expect another Scottish referendum and consequent UK breakup within 3 years. But after 3 years, who knows where things will be - Scotland might be in an economic crisis, and striking out on their own would be even more difficult than what it was 2 years ago when they decided not to leave.

But then again, what do I know... I'm not even from the UK.

I just hope the EU doesn't go soft on the UK if and when they invoke Article 50. They shouldn't capitulate and give them a Norwegian deal, and they need to make the process as short as possible. It's in their best interest that no other country sees that leaving is easy, otherwise others will follow suit.

I voted Out, for various reasons, as did most of the people I know. I think it's the right decision, as the EU is toxic, corrupt, unelected, answers to no one, and has never been audited, despite the huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge amount of questionable (ahem) decisions and financial 'irregularities' . And Britain pays £55 million PER DAY to remain a member, gets almost no say in British border control (why should an unelected, self-serving, non-British organisation have a say in who we let in, including them forcing us to let in known criminals and potential terrorists?), actually just google to see the retarded deal Britain has with the EU.

Yes, the EU is great in principle (principle being if it were run by democratically elected people who were answerable for their actions and did everything in the open), but the reality is that it' simply a corrupt organisation that cares nothing for the many millions of people who belong to the member countries, instead concentrating on making it's ruling elite and their associated business colleagues very wealthy.

And regarding the vote, if the losing side had won by the same amount, they would not now be saying "The deciding votes were too few, let's vote again", as they are saying now. And they are now claiming that the Out voters only won due to mainly old age people who are racist. Seriously, goole that too. But the referendum was fought very badly by both sides, as the Out party didn't put forward many arguments for leaving, and the IN party put even fewer, and mainly just talked about money, ignoring the fact that most British voters are worried about the unlimited immigration of *anyone*, even convicted rapists and murderers (apparently it's now racist to want to ban a convicted murderer from entering your country, doesn't matter if he's black or white, you're racist if you don't let him in - pathetic), for example.

But the In party also put forward *lots* of celebrities, politicians, and bankers (you know, the ones who screwed up the world's finances and didn't get punished but instead got huge bonuses) to say how we should stay in. But (a) they didn't actually give concrete reasons why we should stay in (just made up or vague 'facts about what would happen if we left, including war (seriously, for the third time, I say google for this), and (b) why would we poor, who make up 98% of the British population, think that those celebrities, politicians, and bankers (who are all wealthy, and don't have the same problems as us) would know or even care what we want.

The In party also did everything they could to make voting Out look like it said you (the voter) was a brandead racist. Instead of actually, you know, giving us good reasons to vote In. And how can we not assume that that was because there were no good reasons for poor people to vote in.

And now that the Out voters won, we're all apparently too stupid to have understood the question, only voted Out because we hate everyone foreign, and the difference in the IN and Out votes is now so small that we should have a re-vote. And yet the In people don't say why it is that if so small a number of deciding votes is so bad, then why didn't they say BEFORE the election that more than 2% (or whatever) of the votes would be needed to make an acceptable and final result.

The fact is Britain is better out of the EU, but quite a few rich people will be losing a tiny few percent of their wealth, and so they're desperately backtracking now in the hopes of another election, but I really can't see it happening, thankfully.

dexter311 wrote:

... every economist both before, and in the aftermath, have warned that things are (economically) looking grim..

Those are the same experts who (a) didn't see the monstrous financial crash of 2008 coming, (b) haven't done anything to stop it happening again, (c) repeatedly deny that a new crash is coming (even though lots of other) people say it is, and (d) often have vested interests in Britain staying in, either personally or because they 'consult for companies who do.

So you'll understand why myself and others chose to ignore the advice of people who are either pretty clueless about their chosen field, or just plain corrupt.

Tons of EU funding in the UK will cease...

The EU has NEVER funded Britain. They just gave us back a percentage of what we gave them. That's totally different from funding, and we'll now be far better off.

.. and regions such as Wales (where 4bil GBP of EU funding has been pumped into since 2000) and farming regions (where EU funds are provided under the Common Agriculture Policy) will be SOL when those funds stop...

So if you give me a £100, and I give you back £10 of it, then does that make me generous and you better off than you were before?

Will the UK Government provide these funds from the cash they save by not having to pay up to the EU?

Maybe not. But at least we can vote out a government that doesn't do what we like. The EU politicians can't be voted out.

If a national treasure like the NHS isn't getting that money, then I doubt these regions which currently receive EU funds will.

The NHS gets lots of money, but it's so mismanaged, so wasteful, so extensively pays a premium for so many products it could get just as well (or better) for much less money, etc. It's a very complicated issue (and yes, government greed and incompetence is an ever present factor) but at least out of the EU we will have some say in it, via the ballot box. Not nearly enough of course, but the "democracy should mean more than just voting for a political party" argument (which I certainly agree with) is for another time.

And yes, Farage (who I can't stand, BTW) did lie, and so did others in the Out party, but the In party lied much more. They even claimed that leaving could lead to war, which even by normal British political standards (i.e. very low) was disgusting.

Not that I'm particularly pleased with the end result, of course. I just think the Out vote makes more sense than staying in the EU. But we've only basically moved control from a bunch of unelected self-serving apathetic millionaires who I wouldn't trust to sell me a used car, to a bunch of elected self-serving apathetic millionaires who I wouldn't trust to sell me a used car, and who were only elected as the best of a bad bunch.

^ Well said, both posts.
The same propaganda BS applies everywhere I think - we had people here branded as racists/idiots/uneducated scum when they did not agree with the local and EU elite. These are just easy words for those with no real arguments to "defend" their views, call the other person a name or two and suddenly everything you say is an axiom.
The IN supporters attitude and their claims after the referendum (at least what the media portray) are actually quite pathetic and sickening.

Too much immigration from the third world will destroy the western world. That is purely rational: third world countries are not backward without reason.

PeterLI wrote:

Too much immigration from the third world will destroy the western world. That is purely rational: third world countries are not backward without reason.

This isn't necessarily a problem by me, so long as immigrants properly integrate and assimilate into the chosen culture they moved into. For instance, if you move to Britain, you need to know what it's like to be British and act upon it.

Some of the Muslims coming in from the Middle East sincerely hold onto views that are contrary to Western civilization, like Sharia Law, which, according to a considerable number of Muslim immigrants, should be enacted everywhere while disregarding local law. It's insane and there's no way Western societies should tolerate this. Preservation of our values must happen at all costs.

dexter311 wrote:

I seem to have the opposite opinion compared to what most of you think - I really don't think choosing to leave the EU is a good […]
Show full quote

I seem to have the opposite opinion compared to what most of you think - I really don't think choosing to leave the EU is a good thing for the UK, at least in terms of the next 10 or so years.

FWIW, I'm not from the UK (Australian who lives in Germany), but from what I read in the leadup to this referendum, every economist both before, and in the aftermath, have warned that things are (economically) looking grim. The UK is predominantly a service-based economy, and losing access to the common market will really hurt them. London's financial sector will have to move to either then mainland or Ireland to maintain operations in the EU. Frankfurt is already licking its lips with anticipation of lots of financial sector jobs coming to the city. Tons of EU funding in the UK will cease, and regions such as Wales (where 4bil GBP of EU funding has been pumped into since 2000) and farming regions (where EU funds are provided under the Common Agriculture Policy) will be SOL when those funds stop... Will the UK Government provide these funds from the cash they save by not having to pay up to the EU? If a national treasure like the NHS isn't getting that money, then I doubt these regions which currently receive EU funds will.

And even though I never voted, nor does this affect me to the extent it affects English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh people, I feel angry that the Leave leaders deceived voters. Examples include Nigel Farage's statement that the 350m odd GBP pledged to the NHS (by a DIFFERENT Leave campaign) was in fact not going to happen THE DAY BEFORE the referendum, statements from UKIP that almost 50 EU trade deals will still remain valid for the UK after Brexit (which is false), that the UK will have to take part in a "European Army"... it all screams of deceit, poor campaigning and extreme mis-management.

As for EU regulations suffocating the UK, well what can they do about that by leaving? The only thing that will change will be that they now have no say in drafting/amending/etc these regulations - companies who want to trade in the EU common market will still have to abide by the regulations anyway. So instead of working to streamline or reduce regulatory hell, they just leave? That makes no sense to me at all!

And what of the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland? Suddenly, that will become an EU border - this must surely mean the border will need strengthening. Could this lead to increased violence in a region that had a bombing as recent as March this year? Who knows what will happen there.

Finally, I feel as though the Scots and Northern Irish have been screwed over in this whole thing. The English had a massive sway in what the overall outcome was going to be due to population alone, and I feel that the Scottish population in particular (having a 62% Stay result) were lied to back when they had their own referendum to leave the UK - in the end, they decided to stay based on a "promise" that the UK would not leave the EU. Well look where we are now - I fully expect another Scottish referendum and consequent UK breakup within 3 years. But after 3 years, who knows where things will be - Scotland might be in an economic crisis, and striking out on their own would be even more difficult than what it was 2 years ago when they decided not to leave.

But then again, what do I know... I'm not even from the UK.

I just hope the EU doesn't go soft on the UK if and when they invoke Article 50. They shouldn't capitulate and give them a Norwegian deal, and they need to make the process as short as possible. It's in their best interest that no other country sees that leaving is easy, otherwise others will follow suit.

The system needs to crash and burn so that it can naturally reset instead of being rigged every time something happens. The debt alone means that generations will be cluster fucked for one to two hundred years and crazy things like the derivatives bubble should have never happened. Lets just say it is much bigger than the world economy by more than 10 times, 1.5 quadrillion usd as of last year 😲

US banks alone as of last year was 247 trillion usd worth of exposure and it gets better in Europe just look at the next possible lehman brothers ie deutsche bank. When that fat tick pops that alone will crash the Euro more than Greece ever could.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-25/geor … on-irreversible

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-25/brex … t-lehman-moment

BTW if the Euro goes it will sink everyone else including all the other big players in a matter of weeks once it crashes.

I see a lot of lies and stupid statements on both sides 🙁

Interesting analysis: https://twitter.com/ijclark/status/746774581390745600