I never use setver or doskey.

DOS=HIGH,UMB is usually before any of the lines to load anything as well. Not sure if it matters, that is just how I do it.

cyclone3d wrote on 2021-09-21, 15:39:

I never use setver or doskey.

DOS=HIGH,UMB is usually before any of the lines to load anything as well. Not sure if it matters, that is just how I do it.

I have no idea would I ever need setver for any game I would play, but is there still a reason to take it off? Would that free up memory to make a difference? Doskey sounds like it's handy, but I don't know would I ever really need it.

I've seen DOS=HIGH,UMB after loading HIMEM and EMM on couple guides and on jesolo's template, I guess it doesn't matter then?

cyclone3d wrote on 2021-09-21, 15:39:

I never use setver or doskey.

SETVER is to make certain DOS programs meant for older DOS versions to be able to run on recent ones. This for examples forces a program to identify the MS-DOS version as 6.22 even if you run the Windows 98 SE MS-DOS mode, it's not perfect though. As for DOSKEY, there are much better alternatives such as 4DOS.

There's also an obscure way to boot into Windows from a menu. This is by editing MSDOS.SYS. 😉 BootConfig is for which config menu will be used for BootGUI.

1BootGUI=1
2BootConfig=WINDOWS

And remove WIN.COM from AUTOEXEC.BAT. You don't actually need EMM386 to be loaded either on the "WINDOWS" option as Windows has its own expanded memory manager.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-21, 16:12:

And remove WIN.COM from AUTOEXEC.BAT. You don't actually need EMM386 to be loaded either on the "WINDOWS" option as Windows has its own expanded memory manager.

Awesome, thanks! But how does the boot menu then know how to load windows if I remove WIN.COM?

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-21, 16:16:

Awesome, thanks! But how does the boot menu then know how to load windows if I remove WIN.COM?

See my edit above. 😀

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-21, 16:12:

BootConfig is for which config menu will be used for BootGUI.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-21, 16:16:

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-21, 16:16:

Awesome, thanks! But how does the boot menu then know how to load windows if I remove WIN.COM?

See my edit above. 😀

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-21, 16:12:

BootConfig is for which config menu will be used for BootGUI.

I'll be honest, I don't really understand what exactly makes the PC load Windows with that MSDOS.sys edit, but I guess that don't matter if that works!

So the WINDOWS part in config.sys looks like this now with EMM386 taken off:

1[WINDOWS]
2DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
3DOS=HIGH,UMB
4DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE

I also took DOSKEY out from autoexec.bat. Anything else? Any idea how good/bad idea it is to initialize Oprheus drivers or Throttle from autoexec?

Edit: I just noticed that in order to this boot menu to work it is needed to set BootGUI=0, how would that work with your suggestion?

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-21, 16:30:

So the WINDOWS part in config.sys looks like this now with EMM386 taken off: […]
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So the WINDOWS part in config.sys looks like this now with EMM386 taken off:

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1[WINDOWS]
2DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
3DOS=HIGH,UMB
4DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE

I also took DOSKEY out from autoexec.bat. Anything else? Any idea how good/bad idea it is to initialize Oprheus drivers or Throttle from autoexec?

Edit: I just noticed that in order to this boot menu to work it is needed to set BootGUI=0, how would that work with your suggestion?

That's good enough for Windows. The rest such as the sound initialization and throttle are just for the other configuration menus with the exception of the BLASTER environment.

Did you add BootConfig on MSDOS.SYS? Anyway BootGUI=0 with WIN.COM on AUTOEXEC.BAT works. Don't want to complicate the things further.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-21, 16:35:

That's good enough for Windows. The rest such as the sound initialization and throttle are just for the other configuration menus with the exception of the BLASTER environment.

Did you add BootConfig on MSDOS.SYS? Anyway BootGUI=0 with WIN.COM on AUTOEXEC.BAT works. Don't want to complicate the things further.

What is really confusing me here is that if I've understood correctly, with BootGUI=0 I get the boot menu then starting the PC. But if I set it to 1 and add BootConfig=WINDOWS, would I still get the boot menu where I would be able to pick and choose between windows and DOS?

This stuff really is uncharted waters for me, your help is appreciated!

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-21, 16:43:

What is really confusing me here is that if I've understood correctly, with BootGUI=0 I get the boot menu then starting the PC. But if I set it to 1 and add BootConfig=WINDOWS, would I still get the boot menu where I would be able to pick and choose between windows and DOS?

This stuff really is uncharted waters for me, your help is appreciated!

The menu always appears regardless whether BootGUI is set to 0 or 1. But with BootGUI=1 without BootConfig set it will attempt to boot into Windows regardless on which configuration menu you choose.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-21, 16:48:

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-21, 16:43:

What is really confusing me here is that if I've understood correctly, with BootGUI=0 I get the boot menu then starting the PC. But if I set it to 1 and add BootConfig=WINDOWS, would I still get the boot menu where I would be able to pick and choose between windows and DOS?

This stuff really is uncharted waters for me, your help is appreciated!

The menu always appears regardless whether BootGUI is set to 0 or 1. But with BootGUI=1 without BootConfig set it will attempt to boot into Windows regardless on which configuration menu you choose.

Gotcha, thanks!

You can use a [COMMON] section in CONFIG.SYS to include the same lines after every menu option.

keenmaster486 wrote on 2021-09-21, 16:56:

You can use a [COMMON] section in CONFIG.SYS to include the same lines after every menu option.

True, but the only problem is that this part gets loaded first prior the specific configuration menu. For example loading SETVER in [COMMON] and then EMM386 on a config menu won't put SETVER into upper memory.

I'd be tempted to add a UDMA driver to the set, either Triones or XHDD / XDVD2 for optical, as you can get improved DOS disk performance.
Might also be worth looking at non-EMM386 UMB like UMBPCI if you need to max conventional memory while remaining in real mode.
FASTVID may also be worth a go

Matth79 wrote on 2021-09-21, 18:01:

I'd be tempted to add a UDMA driver to the set, either Triones or XHDD / XDVD2 for optical, as you can get improved DOS disk performance.
Might also be worth looking at non-EMM386 UMB like UMBPCI if you need to max conventional memory while remaining in real mode.
FASTVID may also be worth a go

Seem like stuff to mess with later down the line, I better learn the basics and get the thing running first 😀

But thanks for mentioning those, I didn't even know they were a thing and I'm sure I'm going to tinker with them at some point just for the heck of it!

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-21, 18:19:

Seem like stuff to mess with later down the line, I better learn the basics and get the thing running first 😀

But thanks for mentioning those, I didn't even know they were a thing and I'm sure I'm going to tinker with them at some point just for the heck of it!

Keep in mind that Windows 9x was designed with the intent that you would play DOS games in Windows itself, i.e. without rebooting to DOS. See: http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/images/9780321 … _bonus_ch02.pdf particularly the ending.

In those cases, you may need no config.sys or autoexec.bat at all, and things like SoundBlaster emulation might work automagically. The main purpose for a custom config.sys/autoexec.bat is if you hit F8 and boot to "command prompt only", or choose the "restart in MS-DOS mode" option. They were also needed for the DOS 6.22/Win3.x timeframe where running a DOS game from inside Windows did not work well.

For Win9x, you would build config.sys/autoexec.bat mainly because you want to run an incompatible game as described in the chapter linked above, or because the game needs a huge amount of conventional memory where you need to be very sparing about what is loaded.

I would recommend picking up the book Running MS-DOS. Looks like AbeBooks has it for about $4. It's how I learned about these exact issues in the actual 90s.

jakethompson1 wrote on 2021-09-21, 21:37:

Keep in mind that Windows 9x was designed with the intent that you would play DOS games in Windows itself, i.e. without rebootin […]
Show full quote

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-21, 18:19:

Seem like stuff to mess with later down the line, I better learn the basics and get the thing running first 😀

But thanks for mentioning those, I didn't even know they were a thing and I'm sure I'm going to tinker with them at some point just for the heck of it!

Keep in mind that Windows 9x was designed with the intent that you would play DOS games in Windows itself, i.e. without rebooting to DOS. See: http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/images/9780321 … _bonus_ch02.pdf particularly the ending.

In those cases, you may need no config.sys or autoexec.bat at all, and things like SoundBlaster emulation might work automagically. The main purpose for a custom config.sys/autoexec.bat is if you hit F8 and boot to "command prompt only", or choose the "restart in MS-DOS mode" option. They were also needed for the DOS 6.22/Win3.x timeframe where running a DOS game from inside Windows did not work well.

For Win9x, you would build config.sys/autoexec.bat mainly because you want to run an incompatible game as described in the chapter linked above, or because the game needs a huge amount of conventional memory where you need to be very sparing about what is loaded.

I would recommend picking up the book Running MS-DOS. Looks like AbeBooks has it for about $4. It's how I learned about these exact issues in the actual 90s.

Hey thanks for the book recommendation, I intented to ask for recommendations but forgot. And much to my surprise it looks like my local library still has that book for some reason, I'll check it out!

Also while I'm sure many games would work just fine through Windows, I'd still like to maximize compatibility by running them in pure MS-DOS so I wouldn't need to worry about it. Also I would kinda like to keep DOS and Windows "separate", I don't have space for a dedicated DOS PC so I'm trying to get at least some of the experience of having one with that P3 machine.

I find multi-select CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT startup menus messy and confusing. They are also annoying to edit when a change needs to be made or a new driver needs to be installed.

I greatly prefer having multiple PIF files for this purpose. Phil showcases how to make one in this video around the 3:10 mark. Obviously, Phil uses a multi-select startup menu in his example, but you can put anything you like there.

On a DOS configuration with a menu one can group multiple lines to avoid repetition.

For example on CONFIG.SYS:

1[MENU]
2menuitem=WINDOWS, Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition
3menuitem=DOS1, MS-DOS 7.10 - Expanded Memory
4menuitem=DOS2, MS-DOS 7.10 - Extended memory
5menuitem=DOS3, MS-DOS 7.10 - Conventional Memory
6menudefault=WINDOWS, 5
7
8[COMMON]
9FILES=45
10BUFFERS=30,0
11LASTDRIVE=E
12SET TEMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
13SET TMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
14
15[HIMEMDOS]
16DOS=HIGH,UMB,NOAUTO
17DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
18
19[SETVER]
20DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE
21
22[DOSINIT]
23DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\videcdd.sys /D:MSCD001
24SHELL=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM /E:512 /P
25
26[WINDOWS]
27REM Since DOS=AUTO is the default everything essential will be loaded automatically
28
29[DOS1]
30INCLUDE=HIMEMDOS
31DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM D=64 MIN=0
32INCLUDE=SETVER
33INCLUDE=DOSINIT
34
35[DOS2]
36INCLUDE=HIMEMDOS
37INCLUDE=SETVER
38INCLUDE=DOSINIT
39
40[DOS3]
41DOS=NOAUTO
42INCLUDE=SETVER
43INCLUDE=DOSINIT

On AUTOEXEC.BAT:

1@ECHO OFF
2PROMPT $p$g
3PATH C:\;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;C:\CTCM;C:\DOSPACK\ORPHINIT;C:\DOSPACK\THROTTLE
4
5goto %config%
6
7:WINDOWS
8goto end
9
10:DOS1
11:DOS2
12:DOS3
13REM Add sound initialization here
14IF "%config%"=="DOS3" goto NOHIMEM
15LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001
16LH C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
17goto end
18
19:NOHIMEM
20C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001
21C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
22goto end
23
24:end

While using PIF files with specialized CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT or "Restart in MS-DOS mode" is the proper way on Windows 9x, it's much less convenient for me due to having to restart many times. Also Phil's video when doing this with COMMAND.COM will get you less conventional memory (check with MEM /C /P command and you'll see two COMMAND) but not with other executables.

"Restart in MS-DOS mode" has DOSSTART.BAT located in C:\WINDOWS for the mouse driver and sound initialization but one cannot deal with content related to CONFIG.SYS for memory managers.

While most of the DOS programs works within Windows 9x without CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT like jakethompson1 said, there are some of them that doesn't and must be run in MS-DOS mode.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-22, 12:17:

On a DOS configuration with a menu one can group multiple lines to avoid repetition. […]
Show full quote

On a DOS configuration with a menu one can group multiple lines to avoid repetition.

For example on CONFIG.SYS:

Copy code to clipboard

1[MENU]
2menuitem=WINDOWS, Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition
3menuitem=DOS1, MS-DOS 7.10 - Expanded Memory
4menuitem=DOS2, MS-DOS 7.10 - Extended memory
5menuitem=DOS3, MS-DOS 7.10 - Conventional Memory
6menudefault=WINDOWS, 5
7
8[COMMON]
9DOS=NOAUTO
10FILES=45
11BUFFERS=30,0
12LASTDRIVE=E
13SET TEMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
14SET TMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
15
16[HIMEM]
17DOS=HIGH,UMB
18DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
19
20[SETVER]
21DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE
22
23[DOSINIT]
24DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\videcdd.sys /D:MSCD001
25SHELL=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM /E:512 /P
26
27[WINDOWS]
28INCLUDE=HIMEM
29INCLUDE=SETVER
30
31[DOS1]
32INCLUDE=HIMEM
33INCLUDE=SETVER
34INCLUDE=DOSINIT
35
36[DOS2]
37INCLUDE=HIMEM
38DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM D=64 MIN=0
39INCLUDE=SETVER
40INCLUDE=DOSINIT
41
42[DOS3]
43INCLUDE=SETVER
44INCLUDE=DOSINIT

On AUTOEXEC.BAT:

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1@ECHO OFF
2PROMPT $p$g
3PATH C:\;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;C:\CTCM;C:\DOSPACK\ORPHINIT;C:\DOSPACK\THROTTLE
4
5goto %config%
6
7:WINDOWS
8goto end
9
10:DOS1
11:DOS2
12:DOS3
13REM Add sound initialization here
14IF "%config%"=="DOS3" goto NOHIMEM
15LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001
16LH C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
17goto end
18
19:NOHIMEM
20C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001
21C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
22goto end
23
24:end

While using PIF files with specialized CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT or "Restart in MS-DOS mode" is the proper way on Windows 9x, it's much less convenient for me due to having to restart many times. Also Phil's video when doing this with COMMAND.COM will get you less conventional memory (check with MEM /C /P command and you'll see two COMMAND) but not with other executables.

"Restart in MS-DOS mode" has DOSSTART.BAT located in C:\WINDOWS for the mouse driver and sound initialization but one cannot deal with content related to CONFIG.SYS for memory managers.

While most of the DOS programs works within Windows 9x without CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT like jakethompson1 said, there are some of them that doesn't and must be run in MS-DOS mode.

Nice! Though DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM D=64 MIN=0 should be under DOS1 instead of DOS2, right?

I'll replace my drafts with these, I like how these work.