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Reply 20 of 54, by jmarsh

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Jo22 wrote on 2022-02-19, 00:19:

Edit: There also were games using "tweaked" modes.
Jack Jazzrabbit used an 320x199 resolution - to run the game at 60Hz.

There's nothing really "tweaked" about that mode, it's just 320x240@60Hz with 20+21 inactive lines at the top and bottom. On a physical monitor it appears letterboxed.
People get the wrong idea about it (especially the aspect ratio - it uses 1:1 unlike 320x200) because DOSBox doesn't include the inactive lines in its output window.

Reply 21 of 54, by dave343

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-02-22, 07:58:

1:1 = no scaling. And "Aspect" could be very problematic, because you have to rely on a scaler to determine correct aspect ratio, which will lead to overstretched picture more times than not.

So if 1:1 is no scaling, if the 386 outputs 320x200 (720x400) then the BenQ model would actually display the correct 720x400@70Hz in a proper 4:3, or is 1:1 going to show 720x400 but just strech it full screen?

Reply 22 of 54, by Jo22

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jmarsh wrote on 2022-02-22, 08:30:
Jo22 wrote on 2022-02-19, 00:19:

Edit: There also were games using "tweaked" modes.
Jack Jazzrabbit used an 320x199 resolution - to run the game at 60Hz.

There's nothing really "tweaked" about that mode, it's just 320x240@60Hz with 20+21 inactive lines at the top and bottom. On a physical monitor it appears letterboxed.
People get the wrong idea about it (especially the aspect ratio - it uses 1:1 unlike 320x200) because DOSBox doesn't include the inactive lines in its output window.

Hi there! Thanks for your feedback.
I was taking the term over from mobygames.com.

The game is part of the Video Modes Supported : VGA (Tweaked) category.

https://www.mobygames.com/attribute/sheet/att … t,50/p,2/so,0a/

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 23 of 54, by cde

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dave343 wrote on 2022-02-18, 18:40:
The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-02-18, 18:37:

VGA had 70Hz refresh rate and a lot of 60Hz panels will display it with noticeable frameskip.

So I would/will need a LCD that can do above 60hz (so like any gaming monitor) 144hz, and properly display 4:3 aspect...That would work then?

If you can afford it, I recommend the OSSC. It will take care of the 640x400 sampled as 720x400 problem that most monitors have (you can switch between both with the remote). It also removes the need for the monitor to have a VGA input.

Then you need a monitor that supports 70 Hz and forced 4:3 ratio. Recently I tried the Viewsonic VX2418-P-MHD which has a 4:3 mode that sticks - this is useful because with some other monitors after any resolution change it is reset to wide and you have to set it back to 4:3.

In addition to the forced 4:3 mode, this is a 144 Hz display. In my limited testing it seems to have no issue with the line doubled output from OSSC.

Reply 24 of 54, by dave343

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cde wrote on 2022-02-22, 16:36:
dave343 wrote on 2022-02-18, 18:40:
The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-02-18, 18:37:

VGA had 70Hz refresh rate and a lot of 60Hz panels will display it with noticeable frameskip.

So I would/will need a LCD that can do above 60hz (so like any gaming monitor) 144hz, and properly display 4:3 aspect...That would work then?

If you can afford it, I recommend the OSSC. It will take care of the 640x400 sampled as 720x400 problem that most monitors have (you can switch between both with the remote). It also removes the need for the monitor to have a VGA input.

Then you need a monitor that supports 70 Hz and 4:3. Recently I tried the Viewsonic VX2418-P-MHD which has a 4:3 mode that sticks - this is useful because with some other monitors after any resolution change it is reset to wide and you have to set it back to 4:3.

Thanks, yeah I've been reading a lot about the OSSC and it seems worth it. Is everything automatic with it handling the 640x400 or do you need to setup in depth profiles? As for the monitor issue, I'm searching for a good monitor that will work with my 386 and Pentium systems. So requirements I'd like at 24", good color reproduction, VGA input, and of course the 4:3 option with support for IBM/DOS modes. There's a lot out there, but I wanted to get something with decent color and IPS. I was looking at the 24" Asus PA248QV which is a ProArt 16:10 1900x1200 res monitor with VGA. Is a color calibrated monitor, and it seems to support all the good resolutions, specifically IBM. It also has a 4:3 option, however I read a post (I think on Vogon's) where someone bought that monitor and 640x400 or 640x480 was picked up as 16:10 and so it didn't display correctly in the 4:3 aspect ratio. The Asus manual says it will set to 4:3 as long as the input is 4:3.

The 2 other monitors I've been interested in are the BenQBL2420PT because it's a 23.8" 2560x1440, so very high res, but... it only has 3 options for aspect ration: 16:9, Aspect, and 1:1 which I don't quite understand what 1:1 will do.
The last monitor is the AOC AG241QX which is also a 23.8" 2560x1440 so high res, it has 4:3 switch, VGA input, and supports "DOS mode 720x400" plus the lower 640 resolutions, BUT, it's a TN panel. So I'm leaning towards the Asus and BenQ but I'm worried about the 4:3 option.

Reply 25 of 54, by The Serpent Rider

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or is 1:1 going to show 720x400 but just strech it full screen?

It won't stretch anything. 1:1 literally means that no correction is done and one pixel is just one pixel on screen.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 26 of 54, by dave343

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-02-22, 17:04:

or is 1:1 going to show 720x400 but just strech it full screen?

It won't stretch anything. 1:1 literally means that no correction is done and one pixel is just one pixel on screen.

Ah... so basically I'm going to be staring at a very tiny window 😁

Reply 28 of 54, by dave343

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Found an AOC U2790VQ4K 27" (no VGA) but it has a 4:3 switch in the settings, and supports these resolutions:

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Normally, I hate 27" it's too big, but 4K would be sharp and it seems to support everything else. It's just that I'd still need a VGA converter or the OCCS. Frustrating trying to find a monitor that checks all the boxes... VGA, 4:3 support, and support for IBM/DOS modes.

Reply 29 of 54, by The Serpent Rider

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That's also 60 Hz panel, so you need to check on practice if it can support 70/75 Hz. They may be listed, but supported only through frameskip.

#LCDDOSgamingishard

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 30 of 54, by dave343

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-02-22, 19:54:

That's also 60 Hz panel, so you need to check on practice if it can support 70/75 Hz. They may be listed, but supported only through frameskip.

#LCDDOSgamingishard

Ok, so when reading the specs of monitors, even if it lists 70-75hz, if it's a 60hz panel than it's most likely doing it through frame skip. Curious, how would anyone even be able to check? Without actually buying one and then using some tool? I guess 144hz panels are better in that regard.

Reply 31 of 54, by The Serpent Rider

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Curious, how would anyone even be able to check?

I guess you can check it in store, if it's possible.

if it's a 60hz panel than it's most likely doing it through frame skip.

Not necessarily, because new panels usually have better electronics and some will output at least 75 Hz. But there's no guarantee that it always would, because it's not listed as main feature, only that it can receive that signal from video card. Some can happily "accept" 85 Hz signal or even 100 Hz.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 32 of 54, by cde

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Unfortunately the OSSC cannot discriminate between 720 and 640 - you must switch manually. If you spend most time in 640x400, you can leave it that way - 720x400 will still be legible, just looks worse.

Edit : it's possible this Asus monitor mention is not the best choice, since it might be confused by the 1280x800 outputted by OSSC and not properly box it into 4:3 unlike other monitors (like the ViewSonic I mentioned).

Reply 33 of 54, by darry

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-02-22, 20:40:
I guess you can check it in store, if it's possible. […]
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Curious, how would anyone even be able to check?

I guess you can check it in store, if it's possible.

if it's a 60hz panel than it's most likely doing it through frame skip.

Not necessarily, because new panels usually have better electronics and some will output at least 75 Hz. But there's no guarantee that it always would, because it's not listed as main feature, only that it can receive that signal from video card. Some can happily "accept" 85 Hz signal or even 100 Hz.

There are monitors (usually marketed to gamers) that are advertised as supporting >60Hz refresh rates officially and should support displaying those without frameskip (as they would otherwise present no advantage to modern gamers ).

Even some rather pedestrian monitors such as my Philips 252B9 support 75Hz ( personally tested as being without frameskip ) officially and 70Hz unofficially ( also personally tested as being without frameskip ). This was tested over HDMI input on the monitor as fed through an OSSC (HDMI over 70Hz and 60Hz), a Geforce FX 5900 (DVI at 70Hz and 60Hz) and a Geforce GTX750TI (DVI or HDMI at 60Hz, 70Hz and 75Hz) .

Reply 35 of 54, by dave343

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darry wrote on 2022-02-23, 04:53:
The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-02-22, 20:40:
I guess you can check it in store, if it's possible. […]
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Curious, how would anyone even be able to check?

I guess you can check it in store, if it's possible.

if it's a 60hz panel than it's most likely doing it through frame skip.

Not necessarily, because new panels usually have better electronics and some will output at least 75 Hz. But there's no guarantee that it always would, because it's not listed as main feature, only that it can receive that signal from video card. Some can happily "accept" 85 Hz signal or even 100 Hz.

There are monitors (usually marketed to gamers) that are advertised as supporting >60Hz refresh rates officially and should support displaying those without frameskip (as they would otherwise present no advantage to modern gamers ).

Even some rather pedestrian monitors such as my Philips 252B9 support 75Hz ( personally tested as being without frameskip ) officially and 70Hz unofficially ( also personally tested as being without frameskip ). This was tested over HDMI input on the monitor as fed through an OSSC (HDMI over 70Hz and 60Hz), a Geforce FX 5900 (DVI at 70Hz and 60Hz) and a Geforce GTX750TI (DVI or HDMI at 60Hz, 70Hz and 75Hz) .

The concern I have though, you've tested the 70hz/75hz as having unofficial or official support on the Geforce line of cards through HMDI, but I'm hooking my 386 up through VGA using the Cirrus Logix 5429 ISA 1MB card. I use the system for Dos text stuff, BBS's, all the Sierra Online classics. With my Pentium 166MMX system, it has a 2MB S3 Trio64 PCI card and I mainly use this system for all the newer (1995+) full motion video games; Black Dahlia, Tex Murphy games, Gabriel Knight, etc. So it does help to know that model of monitor you have supports those refresh rates, but what would I experience over VGA without the OCCS, in Dos text, Dos games, and FMV games? I think the further away we get from VGA on newer monitors, high refresh rates, and big screens, support for those old IBM/Dos modes are going to be dropped, and so that's really why I'd like to grab a 24+ " monitor that fits all the bills. As I posted yesterday AOC makes a really nice 27" 4K with DOS and IBM modes but no VGA so I'd need a converted.

The issue with the OCCS is that I'm in Canada, and so the cost of $120-140 Euro's is well over $200+ Canadian $, plus I'm looking at shipping cost, plus taxes/duties that I will 100% be charged, so I could easily be looking at over $300 before it's in my hands. And so buying a really decent monitor plus the OCCS, I could be into the $600-700 territory. That's why I'm trying to find a monitor that will check "most" of the boxes for me without having to purchase the OCCS. VGA, IPS/VA Panel, HDMI (for work), 24-32", and preferably high res, and 16:10.

If I could get the OCCS for $100 than okay sure... but if I'm looking at over $300 Canadian $ before it's in my hands, that's a little too much just to have a proper non distorted aspect ratio. I would rather put that money towards a nice monitor.

Reply 36 of 54, by cde

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Without the OSSC, you're going to see resampling artifacts as described here: Re: Widescreen monitors and 4:3 aspect ratio compatibility thread , the reason being that modern monitors assume 720x400 output resolution even though in reality 640x400 is used.

Not a dealbreaker of course, but still a bit annoying. Ideally, buy a CRT, it will be cheaper and provide the most authentic feeling.

Reply 37 of 54, by dave343

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cde wrote on 2022-02-23, 15:13:

Without the OSSC, you're going to see resampling artifacts as described here: Re: Widescreen monitors and 4:3 aspect ratio compatibility thread , the reason being that modern monitors assume 720x400 output resolution even though in reality 640x400 is used.

Not a dealbreaker of course, but still a bit annoying. Ideally, buy a CRT, it will be cheaper and provide the most authentic feeling.

I've bought a number of CRT's over the last 10 years but many of them because of age had issues. I was even able to find a brand new sealed in box 15" CRT last summer, and it worked prefect for about a month before not turning on anymore. So I've given up. Plus I work from home 75% of the time doing IT Network support so I need a large monitor for my line of work, and don't have the space luxury to have a separate desk to setup a 386 with a dedicated 4:3 monitor. So I'm trying to kill 2 birds by having a good work LCD while being able to use it for my 386/Pentium system. I know it's not going to be ideal, or perfect, as you mentioned the scaling issue from 640x200 to 720x400 but it is what it is right now. I just can't justify spending over $300 (Canadian) on a OCCS just to avoid some artifacts that may not always be noticeable depending what I'm doing.

Reply 38 of 54, by imi

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RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2022-02-18, 19:52:

You can still find a large number of older, 4:3 19-inch monitors with VGA and DVI, for $100 or less.

19" LCDs are not 4:3 but 5:4 and most of them do not support 4:3 natively, some may support 4:3 resolutions be displayed correctly but might not display non-square pixel resolutions correctly and a select few will actually let you switch to 4:3 mode.

Reply 39 of 54, by dave343

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imi wrote on 2022-02-23, 15:47:
RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2022-02-18, 19:52:

You can still find a large number of older, 4:3 19-inch monitors with VGA and DVI, for $100 or less.

19" LCDs are not 4:3 but 5:4 and most of them do not support 4:3 natively, some may support 4:3 resolutions be displayed correctly but might not display non-square pixel resolutions correctly and a select few will actually let you switch to 4:3 mode.

Yep, I found this out the hard way by getting a few old used ones and purchasing a new 19" as well.