No controversy intended, but if Microsoft was able to put a stable and well ordered OS, where you wouldn't have to go through the steps of disabling Telemetry (cough *XP*) and the extra performance stuffs, and if most things were quite transparent with quite new features at launch (being added with updates), most users would be down to pay the full price. Then came in piracy, as it always have been, and Microsoft took a SaaS route and we are here, just imagine if they managed to find the best DRM out there (although nothing is perfect nowadays) .

I usually think that modern o.s. (beside which one) at the end does more or less what the consumer always could decades ago with ancient o.s. and that isn't changed over the time. I suppose modern o.s./sw permit a lot more stuff to be done from a programmer point of view in a easier way but the modern sw complexity doesn't seems always to have real life reason for the final user to be there.
I can understand many multimedia ultra high definitions video conference apps or social apps would have not be possible with old sw/frameworks/api/drivers/gpu/cpu etc.. but it doesn't change the point that the same concepts on a lower quality level simpler and minimalistic, were already existing in the 2000's if we compare the old multimedia or online features of those times. At the end what's changed? I see third party softwares that in the 2000 were coded in less then 20 MB that nowdays might be 1 GB to install. Document readers or antivirus or driver packages that are bigger than the whole o.s. few decades ago.
I think that a minimalistic and optimized lower level, lower size, few apps logic would be a needed choice nowdays but I usually see that each new sw, each new driver, everything become heavier for the same task older hw/sw already did.

386SX wrote on 2022-03-22, 11:14:

I usually think that modern o.s. (beside which one) at the end does more or less what the consumer always could decades ago with ancient o.s. and that isn't changed over the time. I suppose modern o.s./sw permit a lot more stuff to be done from a programmer point of view in a easier way but the modern sw complexity doesn't seems always to have real life reason for the final user to be there.
I can understand many multimedia ultra high definitions video conference apps or social apps would have not be possible with old sw/frameworks/api/drivers/gpu/cpu etc.. but it doesn't change the point that the same concepts on a lower quality level simpler and minimalistic, were already existing in the 2000's if we compare the old multimedia or online features of those times. At the end what's changed? I see third party softwares that in the 2000 were coded in less then 20 MB that nowdays might be 1 GB to install. Document readers or antivirus or driver packages that are bigger than the whole o.s. few decades ago.
I think that a minimalistic and optimized lower level, lower size, few apps logic would be a needed choice nowdays but I usually see that each new sw, each new driver, everything become heavier for the same task older hw/sw already did.

It became bigger because they dont have to consider storage requirements any longer or ram limitations, back in 2000 both were extremely important and so the devs had to cut corners and reduce their foot prints in both HDD and Ram sizes to meet the normal hardware for the time. Now with multi terabyte storage systems and most systems sporting 16gb of ram they can just develop with worrying about such considerations and so software bloated, now most games and software use uncompressed images/textures and high quality sound both of which are space hogs.

Was the trade off worth it . .fuck yes, 4k video, HQ lossless music and photorealistic gaming is worth it, the retro stuff is cool and can be fun to use but I wouldn't willingly return to that for day to day use. Ive tried to use my Core2 Quadzilla box for everyday use and its even too slow for modern internet browsing and is missing many of the features modern CPUs have to speed such things up, no, advancement in PCs is worth it be as nostalgic as you wish but 2000s computing was primitive and hacky be thankful that things have advanced to the point you dont have to worry about storage space*.

*Unless you are a person who just has to horde all the things .. I know a few people who have 80tb NAS boxes to hoard everything they download ...its cray cray

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-21, 12:24:

Well if we are being upfront here .. Windows 11 is Windows 10 . .its been out in the wild since 2015, Win 11 was simply a new na […]
Show full quote

chinny22 wrote on 2022-03-21, 10:20:

I'd swap the question round to why did you rush to install Windows 11? I never recommend anyone installing any windows version, […]
Show full quote

I'd swap the question round to why did you rush to install Windows 11?
I never recommend anyone installing any windows version, (or anything new really) till it's been out in the wild for at least 12 months.
Even if Microsoft themselves have updated everything for the new shinny OS, other software companies can take a lot longer to update their own programs/drivers/whatever.

I've no problem with people that want to upgrade sooner, just be aware if you want to be at the forefront of change your going to have to suffer some some growing pains as the world adapts to "new way" of life

Well if we are being upfront here .. Windows 11 is Windows 10 . .its been out in the wild since 2015, Win 11 was simply a new name for a major Service Pack for Windows 10, the reason for the name change was to differentiate it from Windows 10 since the new security features were a pretty big update but under the hood its still Windows 10 and handles everything is the same manner.

If you had been talking about the shift from WinXp to Vista or from Win7 to Win8 then yeah you would have a point about drivers as both sets of releases radically changed how drivers are used and managed by the OS, but Windows 10 to 11 has no such radical changes and they both use the same driver model and management and can use drivers built for each other.

The main issues I see with people and Win 11 is the new security bullshit tends to get in the way and screw shit up, the new UI also has a few quirks but they were quickly fixed and you can turn off the security shit.

I find it amusing that people believe Windows 11 to be something new .. its really not, I've been using it since early beta and yup its just windows 10 with a new lick of paint nothing radically changed. (Its like how Windows 7 is really just a nicer version of Vista)

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-03-21, 14:26:

chinny22 wrote on 2022-03-21, 10:20:

I'd swap the question round to why did you rush to install Windows 11? I never recommend anyone installing any windows version, […]
Show full quote

I'd swap the question round to why did you rush to install Windows 11?
I never recommend anyone installing any windows version, (or anything new really) till it's been out in the wild for at least 12 months.
Even if Microsoft themselves have updated everything for the new shinny OS, other software companies can take a lot longer to update their own programs/drivers/whatever.

I've no problem with people that want to upgrade sooner, just be aware if you want to be at the forefront of change your going to have to suffer some some growing pains as the world adapts to "new way" of life

It's just Windows 10 + new features. They didn't change some so radically to break, but they did in the end.

You both confirm what I said though?
Doesn't really matter what causes backwards compatibility to break be it say drivers or in this case new security features fact still remains something has changed enough to cause issues that affect the newer OS that the older OS doesn't suffer from.

I'd say Win11 is somewhat like WinME.
WinMe was basically 9x but dropping Vxd Driver support meant a lot of software code needed updating.
Win11 is basically Win10 but software code needs updating to work with the new security crap.

chinny22 wrote on 2022-03-22, 11:55:

You both confirm what I said though? Doesn't really matter what causes backwards compatibility to break be it say drivers or i […]
Show full quote

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-21, 12:24:

Well if we are being upfront here .. Windows 11 is Windows 10 . .its been out in the wild since 2015, Win 11 was simply a new na […]
Show full quote

chinny22 wrote on 2022-03-21, 10:20:

I'd swap the question round to why did you rush to install Windows 11? I never recommend anyone installing any windows version, […]
Show full quote

I'd swap the question round to why did you rush to install Windows 11?
I never recommend anyone installing any windows version, (or anything new really) till it's been out in the wild for at least 12 months.
Even if Microsoft themselves have updated everything for the new shinny OS, other software companies can take a lot longer to update their own programs/drivers/whatever.

I've no problem with people that want to upgrade sooner, just be aware if you want to be at the forefront of change your going to have to suffer some some growing pains as the world adapts to "new way" of life

Well if we are being upfront here .. Windows 11 is Windows 10 . .its been out in the wild since 2015, Win 11 was simply a new name for a major Service Pack for Windows 10, the reason for the name change was to differentiate it from Windows 10 since the new security features were a pretty big update but under the hood its still Windows 10 and handles everything is the same manner.

If you had been talking about the shift from WinXp to Vista or from Win7 to Win8 then yeah you would have a point about drivers as both sets of releases radically changed how drivers are used and managed by the OS, but Windows 10 to 11 has no such radical changes and they both use the same driver model and management and can use drivers built for each other.

The main issues I see with people and Win 11 is the new security bullshit tends to get in the way and screw shit up, the new UI also has a few quirks but they were quickly fixed and you can turn off the security shit.

I find it amusing that people believe Windows 11 to be something new .. its really not, I've been using it since early beta and yup its just windows 10 with a new lick of paint nothing radically changed. (Its like how Windows 7 is really just a nicer version of Vista)

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-03-21, 14:26:

chinny22 wrote on 2022-03-21, 10:20:

I'd swap the question round to why did you rush to install Windows 11? I never recommend anyone installing any windows version, […]
Show full quote

I'd swap the question round to why did you rush to install Windows 11?
I never recommend anyone installing any windows version, (or anything new really) till it's been out in the wild for at least 12 months.
Even if Microsoft themselves have updated everything for the new shinny OS, other software companies can take a lot longer to update their own programs/drivers/whatever.

I've no problem with people that want to upgrade sooner, just be aware if you want to be at the forefront of change your going to have to suffer some some growing pains as the world adapts to "new way" of life

It's just Windows 10 + new features. They didn't change some so radically to break, but they did in the end.

You both confirm what I said though?
Doesn't really matter what causes backwards compatibility to break be it say drivers or in this case new security features fact still remains something has changed enough to cause issues that affect the newer OS that the older OS doesn't suffer from.

I'd say Win11 is somewhat like WinME.
WinMe was basically 9x but dropping Vxd Driver support meant a lot of software code needed updating.
Win11 is basically Win10 but software code needs updating to work with the new security crap.

What would you have MS do .. sit on its ass and never progress ?

Progression always breaks stuff its just how it is and 90% of the time most issues are caused directly by users doing something the OS tries its hardest to prevent the user from doing, Win 11 is especially good about preventing users from breaking it, it will let you know if it cant work on your hardware and will even tell you if your current software is compatible but again .. users dont RTFM.

Complain all you like about the new security stuff, MS is having a hard time as it is trying to keep the malware out of the OS and its a losing battle, if hardware based security can help prevent users from getting their shit encrypted or personal data stolen then I'm ok with MS trying to progress. (By users I mean your average Joe, mom, pop, not people who have a good handle on IT and know how to use the internet safely)

Even if it means shit gets broken, I say let stuff get broken ..look what happened with Vista .. Windows 7 is really a gussied up Vista without broken drivers and people consider it one of the best versions of Windows .. and yet Vista was the worst ...irony much ?

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-22, 11:37:

It became bigger because they dont have to consider storage requirements any longer or ram limitations, back in 2000 both were extremely important and so the devs had to cut corners and reduce their foot prints in both HDD and Ram sizes to meet the normal hardware for the time. Now with multi terabyte storage systems and most systems sporting 16gb of ram they can just develop with worrying about such considerations and so software bloated, now most games and software use uncompressed images/textures and high quality sound both of which are space hogs.

Obviously imho but I don't think that the higher amount of free space should necessary mean that a program should use all that space for the same tasks which will mean much more ram usage, cpu / controller usage etc.. maybe old sw didn't necessary needed such space at first once compiled because the target was to do the task in the fastest optimized way usually. Maybe I just can't see the progresses on a concept point of view but "a calculator in the 1980" did the "same" task a sw calculator in the 2022 might do through frameworks, api, gpu, fpu, SSSEx whatever requirements to just do the same task. Complexity above complexity to mitigate the added complexity using more complexity, I think make us forget what the app was needed for at first. 😉

4K video decoding I wonder if could have been possible time before considering when 1080p 60fps hw decoding was available. Not to mention the GPU logic that in the past should have been expected to be "programmable" but most GPUs with thousand programmable units can't decode the next newer codec basically making the previous GPU obsolete each time. At least in the 90's with MPEG1/2 decoding some acceleration still were able to help the task, nowdays it feel like a new codec make the whole multimedia engines to be useless. Photorealistic games always has been a variable thing imho, when I first played with Wolfeinstein3D or Stunts (1990) they looked "photorealistic". 😉

A good progress nowdays would be to come back to a minimalistic ultra optimized lower level way of thinking/coding without necessary the need of the layers added over the time. In some way imho what few linux distributions try to, using the latest best kernels on lightest fastest gui with fewer essential apps. Then users should choose which sw to install and keep and not having gigabyte of ram at boot used with hundreds of processes running.

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-22, 12:03:

What would you have MS do .. sit on its ass and never progress ? […]
Show full quote

What would you have MS do .. sit on its ass and never progress ?

Progression always breaks stuff its just how it is and 90% of the time most issues are caused directly by users doing something the OS tries its hardest to prevent the user from doing, Win 11 is especially good about preventing users from breaking it, it will let you know if it cant work on your hardware and will even tell you if your current software is compatible but again .. users dont RTFM.

Complain all you like about the new security stuff, MS is having a hard time as it is trying to keep the malware out of the OS and its a losing battle, if hardware based security can help prevent users from getting their shit encrypted or personal data stolen then I'm ok with MS trying to progress. (By users I mean your average Joe, mom, pop, not people who have a good handle on IT and know how to use the internet safely)

Even if it means shit gets broken.

Not at all, MS is bit heavy handed with pushing out Win11 but even they aren't forcing anyone to upgrade yet they know that Win10 is stable, mature, a known entity. If you just want a computer to work stick with this a bit longer.
Let the power users, enthusiasts, or people that like new shiny things be the guinea pigs, try out the new OS in the real world give MS and rest of the industry some time to iron out the bugs and in a year or so your experience will be much smoother.

Even feature updates is on a rolling timeline to give people and their systems time to get ready. If you install it on day 1 or worse force the update on unsupported hardware, then hey you took the gamble but don't complain if you strike out

chinny22 wrote on 2022-03-22, 11:55:

You both confirm what I said though? Doesn't really matter what causes backwards compatibility to break be it say drivers or i […]
Show full quote

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-21, 12:24:

Well if we are being upfront here .. Windows 11 is Windows 10 . .its been out in the wild since 2015, Win 11 was simply a new na […]
Show full quote

chinny22 wrote on 2022-03-21, 10:20:

I'd swap the question round to why did you rush to install Windows 11? I never recommend anyone installing any windows version, […]
Show full quote

I'd swap the question round to why did you rush to install Windows 11?
I never recommend anyone installing any windows version, (or anything new really) till it's been out in the wild for at least 12 months.
Even if Microsoft themselves have updated everything for the new shinny OS, other software companies can take a lot longer to update their own programs/drivers/whatever.

I've no problem with people that want to upgrade sooner, just be aware if you want to be at the forefront of change your going to have to suffer some some growing pains as the world adapts to "new way" of life

Well if we are being upfront here .. Windows 11 is Windows 10 . .its been out in the wild since 2015, Win 11 was simply a new name for a major Service Pack for Windows 10, the reason for the name change was to differentiate it from Windows 10 since the new security features were a pretty big update but under the hood its still Windows 10 and handles everything is the same manner.

If you had been talking about the shift from WinXp to Vista or from Win7 to Win8 then yeah you would have a point about drivers as both sets of releases radically changed how drivers are used and managed by the OS, but Windows 10 to 11 has no such radical changes and they both use the same driver model and management and can use drivers built for each other.

The main issues I see with people and Win 11 is the new security bullshit tends to get in the way and screw shit up, the new UI also has a few quirks but they were quickly fixed and you can turn off the security shit.

I find it amusing that people believe Windows 11 to be something new .. its really not, I've been using it since early beta and yup its just windows 10 with a new lick of paint nothing radically changed. (Its like how Windows 7 is really just a nicer version of Vista)

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-03-21, 14:26:

chinny22 wrote on 2022-03-21, 10:20:

I'd swap the question round to why did you rush to install Windows 11? I never recommend anyone installing any windows version, […]
Show full quote

I'd swap the question round to why did you rush to install Windows 11?
I never recommend anyone installing any windows version, (or anything new really) till it's been out in the wild for at least 12 months.
Even if Microsoft themselves have updated everything for the new shinny OS, other software companies can take a lot longer to update their own programs/drivers/whatever.

I've no problem with people that want to upgrade sooner, just be aware if you want to be at the forefront of change your going to have to suffer some some growing pains as the world adapts to "new way" of life

It's just Windows 10 + new features. They didn't change some so radically to break, but they did in the end.

You both confirm what I said though?
Doesn't really matter what causes backwards compatibility to break be it say drivers or in this case new security features fact still remains something has changed enough to cause issues that affect the newer OS that the older OS doesn't suffer from.

I'd say Win11 is somewhat like WinME.
WinMe was basically 9x but dropping Vxd Driver support meant a lot of software code needed updating.
Win11 is basically Win10 but software code needs updating to work with the new security crap.

The new Alder Lake cpus have more issues with Windows 11, but that's to be expected if they bring a mobile thing to a PC after generations. Security features such as Core Isolation (was it in Win10?) reduces the PC performance drastically, but I can live without it.

My complaint has been mostly with File Explorer, which crashes out of the blue, closing all my window tabs. Then it forces you to install a MS account always (officially) , I want to have that limitation removed so that I can use it in a VM properly. Not to mention, it downloads me 2020 NVIDIA WDDM 2.X driver while a newer architecture based driver exists. They can improve definitely, but security has been their key goal lately.

I was at a DMV today and the line queue screens had a Windows 11 update nag screen on. Annoying that, but I was a bit surprised that the computer was new enough to qualify for the upgrade.

happycube wrote on 2022-03-22, 16:15:

I was at a DMV today and the line queue screens had a Windows 11 update nag screen on. Annoying that, but I was a bit surprised that the computer was new enough to qualify for the upgrade.

At one point a friend of mine asked me how to disable the Win11 update nag screen which suddenly showed up on his new laptop out of blue.

As it's not trivial to look for the offending update or the option to indefinitely defer such upgrades, I asked him to look for any BIOS option related to TPM (physical or CPU-based) and disable it so as to "disqualify" the PC, which will in turn stop that nag screen for good.

Looks like as long as your PC is qualified for Win11 requirements M$ will keep nagging at you until you give in and agree install Win11 upgrade. Recent PCs that do have built-in TPM 2.0 capabilities likely have it turned on by default and thus qualified for upgrade.

I personally have never received such nag screens on my systems that do have Win10 installed. Some are too old to be TPM 2.0 capable, while others have it turned off because I still need to use CSM (which is mutually exclusive to it).

I have 2 machines, one which couldn't install Windows 11 because of unsupported specs, while my main PC having a 1st Gen Ryzen installed it without any tweaks at all. I didn't have the supported list then, so I installed based on what the installer says. Funnily, withing Windows 11, the PC health check said that the CPU is unsupported but the installer didnt. Only a few weeks, then Microsoft puts a unsupported hardware watermark on the desktop when I am downgrading again...

I've been running it for a few months on various machines including some unsupported Haswell and Skylake machines (with TPMs though). It has been quite uneventful really. I don't like some of the changes to the taskbar and file explorer but eh whatever. There is "Explorer Patcher" if you want to change things back.

The AutoHDR feature is really interesting for SDR D3D11 games. They also added a few things for WMR VR.

I built myself a i5 12600K Alder Lake box months ago and haven't had any problems with any games new or old. I read all of the DRM issues with Alder Lake were worked out by Intel and MS now. Though I don't know if I own any of those games anyway.

Funny in a twisted way. Win 10 kept annoying Win 7 users, now Win 11 keeps annoying Win 10 users. Poetic justice? Oh the irony. 😔