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Windows 3.11 Ultimate Build

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Reply 60 of 105, by appiah4

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Anonymous Coward wrote on 2022-04-03, 10:48:

It's kind of bullshit that Windows 3.1 can't use virtual memory on a 286. I don't think it was because Microsoft was lazy. It was likely intentional (to get developers to focus on the 386).

Is it though? How was it going to work considering 286s can't really execute EMM386? Asking genuinely because I know jackshit about the whole thing.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 61 of 105, by Anonymous Coward

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Windows doesn't even use EMM386. Its purpose is to emulate expanded memory for DOS applications.
OS/2 1.x supported virtual memory in 286 protected mode, so it was definitely possible.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 62 of 105, by Jo22

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appiah4 wrote on 2022-04-03, 12:53:

Is it though? How was it going to work considering 286s can't really execute EMM386? Asking genuinely because I know jackshit about the whole thing.

Hi there! I'll try to explain, but please take what I say with a grain of salt.
It's late and I'm sleepy, so I may do make some mistakes here.

Windows 3.x was using three different kernals, one for each processor generation or platform (XT/AT/AT386), if you will.

On an 80286, it uses dosx.exe (16-Bit Protected-Mode Extender) and krnl286.exe (the 80286 Windows kernal).
Memory is still segmented (64KB blocks). No V86 mode is used.
In Windows 3.1, I vaguely remember, the extender also knows VCPI and can use it,
if an memory manager for DOS provides it anyway (the Windows extender is a VCPI client).
Otherwise, XMS is used (himem.sys).

Note: If Windows 3.1 (not 3.0) is run on a 386 or later system, Standard-Mode (Win /S) will not use dosx/krnl286 anymore for some reasons I can only speculate about.
It rather will use a pseudo Standard-Mode through krnl386, but without virtual memory and virtual device driver support (.386 files are early VXDs).
That's also the reason as to why some people got Standard-Mode to work on WfW 3.11.
But once you remove krnl386.exe, that Standard-Mode is gone. However, it's possible to force 286 Standard-Mode on a 386.
To do so, DOSX in SYSTEM directory must be executed manually. But from within Windows directory.
C:\WINDOWS\> C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\DOSX.EXE

On a 8086, Windows 3.0 uses its Real-Mode kernal, kernel.exe.
It can use existing EMS, if it's provided through an EMS manager that's been loaded before Windows (LIM4, EEMS compliant).
It's entirely up to that manager to provide memory. Can be an EMS board, the chipset, a swapfile on a HDD, a 386 CPU in V86 mode..

The special thing, however, is this: Windows 3.x in Real-Mode provides that EMS memory that it gets through the ordinary Windows API.
That's right, for the first time, Windows 1/2/3 programs can ask for as much memory they want to (as much as that's available).
Just like as we are used to from the Windows 3.1 days. This was groundbreaking, because Windows/386 didn't allow it.
Windows/386 ran Windows in a tiny 640KB DOS VM, after all.
In those days, in theory, Windows programs needed to access EMS directly like an ordinary DOS program.

On a 80386, Windows 3.x uses krnl386.exe and its own DPMI enabled 32-Bit Protected-Mode Extender,
which also provides memory for DOS programs (it's a DPMI host).
- That PM extender in turn gets its memory from the XMS manager (Himem.sys).

Simply said and in terms of functionality only, that 32-Bit PM extender has some sort of EMM386 counterpart built-in.
A little bit like Windows/386 (which really just was a glorified memory manager with Windows 2.x imprisoned in a wimpy DOS VM provided by V86).
That EMM386 counterpart may also take over the duties of EMM386 once Windows 3.x is loaded, I assume. Or both do work hand in hand, at least.
They were developed for each others, after all.

In OS/2, this was turned around. Win-OS/2 never uses XMS/Himem.sys.
Rather, it now is a DPMI client (a DPMI customer) and OS/2 is its master (DPMI host).

The 386 Enhanced-Mode kernal uses V86 mode and uses 4KB blocks
(the usual 64KB blocks that Win16 programs use are sliced into pieces silently behind the curtain; they still think in 64KB blocks).

Windows 3.x in Enhanced Mode uses flat-memory, almost like Windows 95 or DOS4GW games on DOS.
The MMU is configured to work with one big 4GB segment, which effectively disables the old segmentation unit
known from the 80286 processor (its active, but has nothing to do). That way, all memory address are directly addressable.

With Win32s, some 32-Bit programs from Win95 can be run, too.
Provided, they contain relocation tables - because, these tables allow Win32 programs to run in a shared memory (Windows 3.1 uses shared memory in all modes).
That's because ordinary Win32 programs (by todays standards) do start at a fixed default address, at 4MB.
Early Win32 programs had relocation tables included by default, by the way.

(Before Win32s existed, Win16 programs could also already had used WinMem32 API or the Pharlap extenders.
But technically, these were still programs with a Win16/NE header.)

That works this way, because Windows 95 provides virtual addresses to every Win32 EXE (through its heart, the Virtual Machine Manager VMM) .
So each of them can start at 4MB no problem. In RAM, they are at different locations, of course. But they don't know that.
Merely Win16 programs still use cooperative multitasking and shared memory on Windows 95.

That's a special scenario, also.: Only on Win32s platform, both Win32 and Win16 programs could technically
see and talk directly to each others (with a bit of thunking), due to the common memory space.
Timing is also a special case. Win32s uses cooperative multitasking through Windows 3.1, which can be quicker in certain situations.

Ok, that's enough. Maybe way way too much talking of me.
I just hope the owner of this thread is okay with it. I do love to discuss 16-Bit Windows, but not to spam other people's threads. 🙁

More about this can be read here: Windows 3.1 on a 386 with 640K RAM - Possible?

Edit: J know that the writing is horrible, my bad. I was writing from a smartphone. Please bear with me.
It's just meant to give an idea how things roughly work. Some details aren't exactly right/complete, I'm afraid. 😔
Edit: Edited. Typos fixed.
Edit: Reformatted (on PC).

Last edited by Jo22 on 2022-04-04, 02:10. Edited 1 time in total.

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In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

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Reply 63 of 105, by MrD

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One 3.11 game I think you'll especially enjoy is Operation: Inner Space. It's an asteroids-like game where all the currency pickups are based on the icons on your hard drive. Based on the number of applications you've got installed, I think you'll never be short of currency. 😁

Reply 65 of 105, by Intel486dx33

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vkcpolice wrote on 2022-04-11, 10:05:

anyone know where i can download Voyetra MIDI Orchestrator Plus for win 3.1
also still after more software 🤣

I think It came with the Sound Blaster 16 Pro 2 package.
I have one NEW in box and I think it is included with the MIDI Adapter kit.

Check the Vogons driver library.

Reply 66 of 105, by dormcat

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Intel486dx33 wrote on 2022-04-11, 18:47:
I think It came with the Sound Blaster 16 Pro 2 package. I have one NEW in box and I think it is included with the MIDI Adapter […]
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vkcpolice wrote on 2022-04-11, 10:05:

anyone know where i can download Voyetra MIDI Orchestrator Plus for win 3.1
also still after more software 🤣

I think It came with the Sound Blaster 16 Pro 2 package.
I have one NEW in box and I think it is included with the MIDI Adapter kit.

Check the Vogons driver library.

There was no "16 Pro 2" 😅

The one bundled with Sound Blaster Pro MIDI Kit was Voyetra Sequencer Plus for DOS; SB Pro had very limited Windows 3.1 software support in the original package, provided only drivers, a mixer, and a jukebox.

Voyetra MIDI Orchestrator Plus for Windows 3.1 was bundled with some early editions of AWE32 (at least with my CT3900). It can be found in Internet Archive, though.

Reply 68 of 105, by appiah4

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That reminds me, is there a good way to uninstall software/drivers from Windows 3.1x? Is there a good tutorial for such?

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 69 of 105, by Anonymous Coward

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Unless whatever software you were using had an uninstaller, then no. I don't recall using too many programs that uninstalled, and if they did it was probably half-assed.
I don't remember uninstalls in 9x working terribly well either.
There is a way to remove drivers, but you have to do it manually and edit some ini files...at least that's how I remember doing it.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 70 of 105, by appiah4

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Anonymous Coward wrote on 2022-04-12, 10:20:

Unless whatever software you were using had an uninstaller, then no. I don't recall using too many programs that uninstalled, and if they did it was probably half-assed.
I don't remember uninstalls in 9x working terribly well either.
There is a way to remove drivers, but you have to do it manually and edit some ini files...at least that's how I remember doing it.

My experience.. I usually just do a WINDOWS.BAK copy of the WINDOWS clean install directory and end up nuking and starting from scratch whenever I need to change sound cards or something. Quite a pain in the ass..

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 71 of 105, by vkcpolice

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ive never really had any issues changing drivers of updating graphics cards or sound cards.
the only main issue i have with win 3.11 is that either media player 5.2 or its installed video for windows corrupts a lot of windows 3.11 dll files and the only way to fix it is to format.
i dont know if its media player 5.2 or the video for windows that causes the dll file to become corrupt

i know there was a heap of software for win 3.11 but i think i have most of it.

the only next thing i want to do with this build is get it online 🤣

Reply 72 of 105, by Disruptor

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In 1998 I was working in a factory during the summer holidays where we were 4 persons who have assembled new computers (Pentium, Pentium MMX, Pentium II Klamath & Pentium II Deschutes class).
Once we got a PC that has been upgraded from WfW 3.11 to Win95. Another colleague who processed the RMA returns handed it in and gave it to me to look at it.
It was an easy job, because the error message came from the former WfW 3.11 display driver that left a now useless entry in system.ini

Reply 73 of 105, by chrismeyer6

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I think with the ultimate moniker on the system I think it has to have the ability to surf the web. With all the games and software your gathering this system is going to be an absolute blast to have and use.

Reply 74 of 105, by Prez

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vkcpolice wrote on 2022-03-10, 08:53:
Hi All. im looking for suggestions for software for my new win 3.11 build im after people suggestions on what win 3.11 software […]
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Hi All.
im looking for suggestions for software for my new win 3.11 build
im after people suggestions on what win 3.11 software they are running.
stuff im looking for.
DAWS or midi players
Photo Editing software
Word processing software
Windows 3.11 Games
And everything in between

Stuff i have installed:
ms office 4.3
ms works 4
Photoshop 2.5
acdsee
sb 16 software
winzip
cakewalk
Adobe Acrobat
Adobe Premier
all the microsoft game packs like arcade entertainment packs
simcity
sim tower
ms publisher
mgi photo suit
Paint Shop Pro
QuickTime
mod4win
winplay3
prosound
paint shop deluxe

looking for downloads for another world and kidpix win 3.1 versions

im after pretty much everything that runs on 3.1
thankyou

Hi ! Very nice project !
Is there some king of "public release" somehow, a chance to grab this archive once complete please ?

Best regards
Philippe dubois

Old computers and videogames freak
President of french association https://mo5.com
Get better, get old ! 😁

Reply 76 of 105, by jesolo

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appiah4 wrote on 2022-04-12, 09:02:

That reminds me, is there a good way to uninstall software/drivers from Windows 3.1x? Is there a good tutorial for such?

Back in the day, I used a software application called Windelete 2.0 (for Windows 3.1x).
It basically kept track of what changes were made and you then uninstalled your application via this piece of software. From what I recall, it worked quite well for me.

Reply 77 of 105, by davidrg

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vkcpolice wrote on 2022-04-16, 10:46:

Hi all trying to install network drivers on win 3.11 but unable to find any drivers online for my card its a isa LCS-8634L network card

Got a picture of the card? A lot of generic cards were just NE2000 clones so it might be worth giving the Novell NE2000 drivers a go.

This zip looks like it might be the proper cards for your card: http://files.mpoli.fi/hardware/NET/OTHER/LCS8634L.ZIP

Reply 78 of 105, by dormcat

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davidrg wrote on 2022-04-16, 23:33:
vkcpolice wrote on 2022-04-16, 10:46:

Hi all trying to install network drivers on win 3.11 but unable to find any drivers online for my card its a isa LCS-8634L network card

Got a picture of the card? A lot of generic cards were just NE2000 clones so it might be worth giving the Novell NE2000 drivers a go.

This zip looks like it might be the proper cards for your card: http://files.mpoli.fi/hardware/NET/OTHER/LCS8634L.ZIP

I think LCS-8634L was made by a German company Longshine. Pictures from Amazon and two eBay listings clearly show their logos on PCBs.

The official driver page is kinda...... historical. The UTIL.RAR file contains only one LSCFG.EXE, probably "Longshine configuration utility" and doesn't look like a driver.

The similarly-named LCS-8634PTB had a very complete set of drivers (8634PTB.RAR) but was based on a Realtek chip (probably the popular RTL8139 family). The product brochure, however, suggested the generic NE2000 driver could be used on LCS-8634PTB, so you might want to try NE2000 drivers like davidrg said.

Reply 79 of 105, by vkcpolice

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Hi all yes its a Longshine card and i have tried the ne2000 drivers that come with win 3.11 with no success and the drivers i did manage to find on the net will hang when i try to boot windows so i had to change a few config files to be able to boot windows again. the person who sold me this pc said the card was ne2000 compatible.
just hoping he gets back to me with some drivers he said he still had lying around.