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Reply 40 of 81, by ThinkpadIL

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Plasma wrote on 2022-05-07, 16:20:
ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-05-07, 15:47:
Plasma wrote on 2022-05-07, 15:35:

Yes, PCjr without a floppy drive = toy. I draw the line at the floppy drive.

Epson PX-8 - a CP/M based Laptop designed to be used by default with a microcassette tape drive was barely a toy. As I've mentioned before, cassette tape drives were very pretty common among CP/M era 8-bit Personal Computers. Using a cassette tape drive on an MS-DOS era 16-bit computer, of course, was already a nonsense.

Barely a toy? It has an 8-line screen 🤣.

... but it has 80 column text mode. For text mode based OS like CP/M it was a reasonable compromise. Also it had a very impressive portfolio of productivity software including WordStar, CalcStar, Scheduler, dBase II etc.

Reply 42 of 81, by weedeewee

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Schneider CPC6128 also came out in 1984, and came with a 3" floppy drive

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Reply 43 of 81, by ThinkpadIL

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Plasma wrote on 2022-05-07, 16:39:

If you add the external disk drive, I'll begrudgingly call it a PC. But even the PCjr was more capable. They both came out in 1984.

PCjr was a MS-DOS era 16-bit computer, whereas PX-8 was a CP/M era 8-bit computer. They represent different generations. PX-8 by the way had also a 3.5" external Floppy Disk Drive option.

Reply 44 of 81, by darry

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With all due respect, ThinkpadIL , you are entitled to your opinion as to what qualified/qualifies as a toy based on whatever set of criteria (limitations, features or lack thereof, etc ) you see fit. That is absolutely your prerogative, but not everyone will likely agree with your definition of "toy".

However, many of the people who actually bought and used a Commodore 64 during its 1980s heyday certainly had uses for it that went beyond gaming, for example, or what a majority of people would consider use as a "toy" (there are multiple testimonials to this). Was there a huge adoption rate in the business world ? That would be a no, as I am certain you'll agree and the machine was marketed first and foremost to the general public as a computer for the home. That being said, if that is a criterion for determining "toyness", we might as well consider consumer appliances that the general public purchases for home use to be "toys" because the business/commercial/industrial world uses models that best fit its need instead .

Additionally, there were multiple third party, commercially released, peripherals, expansions, software (including productivity like word processors and spreadsheets, in addition to games of course) that likely existed because there was a market for them over the years, unless all the companies that released such products should be considered misguided/delusional for not considering the Commodore 64 as a toy. See https://www.c64-wiki.com/ if you want examples .

So at the end of the day, what is the objective here :

a) try to convince yourself that the Commodore 64 was more than "toy" or that it was one in order to either justify spreading your collecting interests to it or passing it over ?

b) try to convince people that actually used a Commodore 64 in its heyday that they had was a "toy" ?

If you want to discuss a) , you may want to share so more concretely the criteria that you have in mind . If you want to go with b), you are, IMHO, facing an uphill battle .

Reply 45 of 81, by Plasma

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ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-05-07, 16:43:
Plasma wrote on 2022-05-07, 16:39:

If you add the external disk drive, I'll begrudgingly call it a PC. But even the PCjr was more capable. They both came out in 1984.

PCjr was a MS-DOS era 16-bit computer, whereas PX-8 was a CP/M era 8-bit computer. They represent different generations. PX-8 by the way had also a 3.5" external Floppy Disk Drive option.

They are literally from the same year. If it was 1984 and I wanted a PC, why would I buy a PX-8? It was outdated even when new. Sure it's small and portable, but that's not a requisite for a PC.

Reply 46 of 81, by ThinkpadIL

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darry wrote on 2022-05-07, 17:28:
With all due respect, ThinkpadIL , you are entitled to your opinion as to what qualified/qualifies as a toy based on whatever se […]
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With all due respect, ThinkpadIL , you are entitled to your opinion as to what qualified/qualifies as a toy based on whatever set of criteria (limitations, features or lack thereof, etc ) you see fit. That is absolutely your prerogative, but not everyone will likely agree with your definition of "toy".

However, many of the people who actually bought and used a Commodore 64 during its 1980s heyday certainly had uses for it that went beyond gaming, for example, or what a majority of people would consider use as a "toy" (there are multiple testimonials to this). Was there a huge adoption rate in the business world ? That would be a no, as I am certain you'll agree and the machine was marketed first and foremost to the general public as a computer for the home. That being said, if that is a criterion for determining "toyness", we might as well consider consumer appliances that the general public purchases for home use to be "toys" because the business/commercial/industrial world uses models that best fit its need instead .

Additionally, there were multiple third party, commercially released, peripherals, expansions, software (including productivity like word processors and spreadsheets, in addition to games of course) that likely existed because there was a market for them over the years, unless all the companies that released such products should be considered misguided/delusional for not considering the Commodore 64 as a toy. See https://www.c64-wiki.com/ if you want examples .

So at the end of the day, what is the objective here :

a) try to convince yourself that the Commodore 64 was more than "toy" or that it was one in order to either justify spreading your collecting interests to it or passing it over ?

b) try to convince people that actually used a Commodore 64 in its heyday that they had was a "toy" ?

If you want to discuss a) , you may want to share so more concretely the criteria that you have in mind . If you want to go with b), you are, IMHO, facing an uphill battle .

I thought my objective was pretty clear when I wrote in my first message that I always had a feeling that home computers like Commodore 64 and ZX Spectrum were actually more a toy for kids than a real personal computer for home use.

If It wasn't clear enough, I'll try to make it even more clear. My starting point is that I see those computers more as a toys than a serious computers. Since I have no experience of using them back in the days or today I have a feeling that maybe I'm missing something. So in order to be sure I came asking folks here to express their opinion on that issue.

Hope this time I described my objective clearer than before. 🙂

Reply 47 of 81, by ThinkpadIL

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Plasma wrote on 2022-05-07, 17:43:
ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-05-07, 16:43:
Plasma wrote on 2022-05-07, 16:39:

If you add the external disk drive, I'll begrudgingly call it a PC. But even the PCjr was more capable. They both came out in 1984.

PCjr was a MS-DOS era 16-bit computer, whereas PX-8 was a CP/M era 8-bit computer. They represent different generations. PX-8 by the way had also a 3.5" external Floppy Disk Drive option.

They are literally from the same year. If it was 1984 and I wanted a PC, why would I buy a PX-8? It was outdated even when new. Sure it's small and portable, but that's not a requisite for a PC.

Think about coming to a computer store in 1996 and finding there new 32-bit computer based on Pentium 133 CPU with Windows 95 OS next to also new XT class computer based on 80186 CPU with MS-DOS 5.0 OS. They are both from the same year but they are from different generations. Why would I buy HP 200LX in 1996? Hmm... Maybe because it is a cool thing and a great computer in its class? The same is true regarding PX-8.

Reply 48 of 81, by Plasma

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ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-05-07, 18:12:
Plasma wrote on 2022-05-07, 17:43:
ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-05-07, 16:43:

PCjr was a MS-DOS era 16-bit computer, whereas PX-8 was a CP/M era 8-bit computer. They represent different generations. PX-8 by the way had also a 3.5" external Floppy Disk Drive option.

They are literally from the same year. If it was 1984 and I wanted a PC, why would I buy a PX-8? It was outdated even when new. Sure it's small and portable, but that's not a requisite for a PC.

Think about coming to a computer store in 1996 and finding there new 32-bit computer based on Pentium 133 CPU with Windows 95 OS next to also new XT class computer based on 80186 CPU with MS-DOS 5.0 OS. They are both from the same year but they are from different generations. Why would I buy HP 200LX in 1996? Hmm... Maybe because it is a cool thing and a great computer in its class? The same is true regarding PX-8.

Is this thread about PCs or portables? As a PC, the HP 200LX was incredibly outdated in 1996 and if it was your only computer you would be left in the dust.

Reply 49 of 81, by ThinkpadIL

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Plasma wrote on 2022-05-07, 18:18:
ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-05-07, 18:12:
Plasma wrote on 2022-05-07, 17:43:

They are literally from the same year. If it was 1984 and I wanted a PC, why would I buy a PX-8? It was outdated even when new. Sure it's small and portable, but that's not a requisite for a PC.

Think about coming to a computer store in 1996 and finding there new 32-bit computer based on Pentium 133 CPU with Windows 95 OS next to also new XT class computer based on 80186 CPU with MS-DOS 5.0 OS. They are both from the same year but they are from different generations. Why would I buy HP 200LX in 1996? Hmm... Maybe because it is a cool thing and a great computer in its class? The same is true regarding PX-8.

Is this thread about PCs or portables? As a PC, the HP 200LX was incredibly outdated in 1996 and if it was your only computer you would be left in the dust.

Why a Portable can't be a Personal Computer the same time? By the way, HP 200LX had also a Floppy Disk Drive among bunch of other accessories. 🙂

Reply 51 of 81, by ThinkpadIL

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Plasma wrote on 2022-05-07, 18:49:

Sure it can be. But the bar is a lot higher if you are comparing capability against desktop PCs, especially in the 80s and 90s.

I try to compare comparable. For instance Commodore 64 and IBM PCjr were comparing even their developers.

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Reply 53 of 81, by weedeewee

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fyi, Sinclair QL and Panasonic JB-3300 are also from circa 1984.

Right to repair is fundamental. You own it, you're allowed to fix it.
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Reply 54 of 81, by ThinkpadIL

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Plasma wrote on 2022-05-07, 19:18:

If you are considering them all PCs, then they can all be compared. If I needed a PC (and not specifically a portable), I would not buy the PX-8 in 1984. For a PC, it's very limited.

Ok, let's take a look at what Wikipedia says on this subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_computer

"Home computers were a class of microcomputers that entered the market in 1977 and became common during the 1980s. They were marketed to consumers as affordable and accessible computers that, for the first time, were intended for the use of a single nontechnical user. These computers were a distinct market segment that typically cost much less than business, scientific or engineering-oriented computers of the time such as those running CP/M or the IBM PC, and were generally less powerful in terms of memory and expandability. However, a home computer often had better graphics and sound than contemporary business computers. Their most common uses were playing video games, but they were also regularly used for word processing and programming."

"The line between 'business' and 'home' computer market segments vanished completely once IBM PC compatibles became commonly used in the home, since now both categories of computers typically use the same processor architectures, peripherals, operating systems, and applications."

So if to follow the Wikipedia terminology, my question is: "Home Computer - was it a toy or a Business Computer for the masses?"

Reply 55 of 81, by weedeewee

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ThinkpadIL, both 😀

Right to repair is fundamental. You own it, you're allowed to fix it.
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Reply 58 of 81, by ThinkpadIL

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Plasma wrote on 2022-05-07, 20:18:

I suppose that depends on if the home computer was upgraded (or could be upgraded) to do useful work.

It depends on what kind of upgrade was made. 🙂

For example adding a MicroMate PMC-101 module to a TRS-80 Model 100 you could upgrade it from a very limited Microsoft Basic based laptop to CP/M machine. Actually it is a big question what upgraded what, since PMC-101, being a standalone Z-80 based computer, needed a Tandy 100 laptop only as a terminal.

Reply 59 of 81, by weedeewee

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ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-05-07, 20:20:
weedeewee wrote on 2022-05-07, 20:16:

ThinkpadIL, both 😀

It depends on what kind of occupation one considers a business. 🙂

It also depend on how much of the earth population you consider the masses. 😉

Some people used a toy computer to start their business, others made games on them, still others used their business computer to make games and yet others used their business computer for business.
In hindsight, I should've said all four 😁

Right to repair is fundamental. You own it, you're allowed to fix it.
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
Do not ask Why !
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Serial_port