Joakim wrote on 2022-06-18, 17:44:

I think this is reason enough. A 105 gb download is stupid.

Kinda like a 7CD Phantasmagoria install back in 1995.

I could pretty much subscribe to any of the items on this list:

darry wrote on 2022-06-19, 07:24:

- DRM requiring Internet connectivity regularly or constantly - Online-centered games that either depend come mpletely or in par […]
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- DRM requiring Internet connectivity regularly or constantly
- Online-centered games that either depend come mpletely or in part on publisher's server infra (which is never perpetual)
- No allowance for self-hosting (or third party) multi-player server setups
- Subscription based stuff
- Pay to win (or gain advantage)
- Endless streams of non-free DLC .
- The mandatory (AFAICR) GTA V "social club" or whatever it is called

To me, worse than this:

darry wrote on 2022-06-19, 07:24:

- Mobile gaming that is designed to be played on a touchscreen

Is when regular games, that were not designed to be played on a touchscreen, are ported to Mobile devices, forcing an unintuitive and crappy touchscreen UI.

So many of the complaints levelled here only apply to a very limited amount of modern games. Some of them also apply to old games.

ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-19, 13:08:

Some of them also apply to old games.

I guess that depends, at least in part, on the cut-off point one sets for "modern". For me, the last 10-15 ish years qualify as "modern". Anything from the last century isn't. I am still on the fence about an exact threshold.

What I hate about games is:

1. Games that crash and clearly were never tested properly in the first place, then it turns out the company went bust and it never gets fixed. Nothing new there, that sort of thing has always happened but it's damn annoying anyway.

2. When my favourite MMORPG evolved in what I considered wrong directions, many of which built up and ruined my enjoyment - which ultimately meant I had to come back and live in reality again after a few more years playing old versions. Took maybe five years to re-adjust and I wasn't even addicted, I just kind of lived there...

3. Games that keep producing content faster than I can play it. Surprisingly easy for them these days, as I seldom play anything at all. But even a two year cycle is too fast for me 🤣.

I'll consider modern AAA games, preferably single player, because indies have different issues.

• Games are designed around quest and map markers. You don't figure out anything and you don't have to figure out anything. Once you pass to a new stage on a quest, a new blinking waypoint marker automatically appears which points exactly the place/item you have to interact with. You can play all games in autopilot. This completely destroys immersion.
• Online DRM. You just don't own your games, you can't play them on your own terms.
• Launchers on top of launchers on top of launchers, exclusive to a specific circle of content.
• Bloated games. We get games with hundreds of hours of "content", but not so much quality play time. And often the game expects you to grind to progress.
• Mandatory online functions in single player games.
• Cinematic games. These type of games want to tell their story with a tool set of a movie. Often limiting or ripping away controls from you, because 'it's story time', spitting into the face of the interactive nature of the medium which could be its biggest strength.

+1 no exclusivity. Studios want you to be able to experience every bit of the content on one playthrough, so meaningful choices which can lock you out of content (quest lines, factions, etc.) are rare or only in the late-game.

dr_st wrote on 2022-06-19, 12:41:

Kinda like a 7CD Phantasmagoria install back in 1995.

There was a lot of duplication on those CDs though I believe. (The developers didn't want the user to have to constantly switch disks.)

ratfink wrote on 2022-06-19, 13:52:

2. When my favourite MMORPG evolved in what I considered wrong directions, many of which built up and ruined my enjoyment - which ultimately meant I had to come back and live in reality again after a few more years playing old versions. Took maybe five years to re-adjust and I wasn't even addicted, I just kind of lived there...

Is this Star Wars Galaxies? I never played it myself, but do remember all the angry players around the time SWTOR dropped.

rmay635703 wrote on 2022-06-19, 00:26:

brostenen wrote on 2022-06-18, 21:24:

tannerstevo wrote on 2022-06-18, 21:03:

My download speed is 1GB per day if I am lucky, so the size is a factor for me.

That is roughly 24 megabyte an hour.... Are you on dial up or something?

Dialup at best was half that

It was the best that I was able to calculate in a hurry. But yeah, that is low. Perhaps it was meant differently in a different context, yet came off as totally wrong. I just took the person at his word.

cyclone3d wrote on 2022-06-19, 04:18:

There are quite a few indie games that are quite good. Brothers: A Take of Two Sons is really good. You can even control both ch […]
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brostenen wrote on 2022-06-18, 21:16:

Hate is such a strong word. Modern games just dont do it for me personally. That is my reason, but I don't hate them I just choose not to play.

There are quite a few indie games that are quite good.
Brothers: A Take of Two Sons is really good. You can even control both characters at the same time with a dual analog stick gamepad...

A Boy and his Blob is another really good one.

The Trine games are also really good.

Dust: An Elesian Tale is another good game.

All the above are either 2D or 2.5D games.

I used to play Warframe a lot and although it is "free to play", you really do need to at least buy some extra character slots which is not big deal because they have 75% off coupons for the in-game currency every once in while.

It still ends up being less than a regular game as far as cost goes.
Last time I played, the game had gotten so much larger that I was pretty much completely lost.

Another good thing about it is that you don't need an insanely fast computer to max out the video settings and it also has pretty good graphics.

I just stick to Dos, Win98, C64 and Amiga gaming when it comes to traditional computing, and consoles I stick to Xbox360/Playstation3/Wii on actual hardware and earlier systems I emulate on RetroPIE. 😀

RandomStranger wrote on 2022-06-19, 14:20:

[*] Online DRM. You just don't own your games, you can't play them on your own terms.

I see this as just a modern incarnation of a system which has been around since the 80's.

Software has been sold as a license since the 80's which strictly speaking does provide certain limitations that legally limits people's ability to do whatever they want (subject to legal rulings in different jurisdictions). Consequently, we've also been dealing with copy protection schemes for decades of varying degrees of inconvenience.

Personally, I will take something like Steam's online DRM over the CD-checks of the 90's, the latter of which I found far more inconvenient and annoying.

Okay a serious answer:

One thing I hate is that most PC games don't come in a physical media and even if they do, have things to download. I can't feel that old complete game in a disc vibe

brostenen wrote on 2022-06-19, 15:31:

rmay635703 wrote on 2022-06-19, 00:26:

brostenen wrote on 2022-06-18, 21:24:

That is roughly 24 megabyte an hour.... Are you on dial up or something?

Dialup at best was half that

It was the best that I was able to calculate in a hurry. But yeah, that is low. Perhaps it was meant differently in a different context, yet came off as totally wrong. I just took the person at his word.

I have DSL.
Well for me it isn't just the low speed, average 30 to 40KB\s, its's also that my internet goes out A LOT.
I work during the week, but on weekends I can count on my internet going out at 8:30 am almost to the minute and then it may reconnect and disconnect half a dozen times during the morning.
Our neighborhood association has complained to centurylink , but they won't do anything as far as upgerades.

Shponglefan wrote on 2022-06-19, 15:37:

I see this as just a modern incarnation of a system which has been around since the 80's. […]
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RandomStranger wrote on 2022-06-19, 14:20:

[*] Online DRM. You just don't own your games, you can't play them on your own terms.

I see this as just a modern incarnation of a system which has been around since the 80's.

Software has been sold as a license since the 80's which strictly speaking does provide certain limitations that legally limits people's ability to do whatever they want (subject to legal rulings in different jurisdictions). Consequently, we've also been dealing with copy protection schemes for decades of varying degrees of inconvenience.

Personally, I will take something like Steam's online DRM over the CD-checks of the 90's, the latter of which I found far more inconvenient and annoying.

Today's DRM is a lot more restrictive than anything before. Even if we include cancers like StarForce. There is maybe one that is worse, the one some late-2000s early-teens EA games had which limited the number of installs you could make. I think Spore and Sim City had this.

Steam is passable, especially because it doesn't lock you into Windows, but nothing beats GoG today. That should be the example. It that approach would be the norm today, that's one item crossed off the list, but the rest I listed are even worse from a game quality standpoint.

I feel pretty out of touch with mainstream games even though I do play stuff like Resident Evil and most Arkane games. I feel like the audience today is a lot different. Much more online centric and I only really did LAN gaming. So I don't know what's wrong with modern games compared to the olden times. I enjoy quite a few modern single player titles. I think the selection is pretty good. Indie and big budget. VR has also been a fascinating new gaming avenue.

I even think the competition going on with the online stores is great these days. I am entertained by how much money Epic is dropping to give away games to get attention.

If you want to read some vintage threads with '90s people bitching about how awful their modern games were go search Google Groups. 😀

RandomStranger wrote on 2022-06-19, 17:21:

There is maybe one that is worse, the one some late-2000s early-teens EA games had which limited the number of installs you could make. I think Spore and Sim City had this.

As does Mass Effect and it's already starting to break down. If you install the game with original retail disc and update the game immediately, the DRM can't activate the game and just errors out when you try to start the game. You have to install the game, copy one file from the install directory, update the game and replace that updated file with the earlier one, then the DRM can connect to activation server. Starting the game once before updating probably works too, haven't tried. The last time I've installed ME was late 2019 so things could have gotten worse for all I know. There's also a de-authorization tool thats supposed to unactivate the game and give that activation back, no idea does that work still.

Just a matter of time until it goes completely fubar, the activation server won't stay online forever. Figures it would be EA who would find a way to render even physical copies useless, I'm half expecting the game to advertise the remastered version on origin when the activation stops working.

Sombrero wrote on 2022-06-19, 17:59:

RandomStranger wrote on 2022-06-19, 17:21:

There is maybe one that is worse, the one some late-2000s early-teens EA games had which limited the number of installs you could make. I think Spore and Sim City had this.

As does Mass Effect and it's already starting to break down. If you install the game with original retail disc and update the game immediately, the DRM can't activate the game and just errors out when you try to start the game. You have to install the game, copy one file from the install directory, update the game and replace that updated file with the earlier one, then the DRM can connect to activation server. Starting the game once before updating probably works too, haven't tried. The last time I've installed ME was late 2019 so things could have gotten worse for all I know. There's also a de-authorization tool thats supposed to unactivate the game and give that activation back, no idea does that work still.

Just a matter of time until it goes completely fubar, the activation server won't stay online forever. Figures it would be EA who would find a way to render even physical copies useless, I'm half expecting the game to advertise the remastered version on origin when the activation stops working.

I installed it a couple of months ago on my XP/Vista PC. Though didn't update it. This PC doesn't have access to the internet. Works just fine. Though my copy is an European version published by CD Projekt. CD Projekt, before they started GoG, handled the Central/Eastern European publishing of a lot of games. I don't know what changes did they make compared to other versions.

RandomStranger wrote on 2022-06-19, 18:45:

I installed it a couple of months ago on my XP/Vista PC. Though didn't update it. This PC doesn't have access to the internet. Works just fine. Though my copy is an European version published by CD Projekt. CD Projekt, before they started GoG, handled the Central/Eastern European publishing of a lot of games. I don't know what changes did they make compared to other versions.

Had a look in PCGamingWiki and it says the version sold in Czech Republic and Hungary had just SafeDisc v4 and no online activation, so it's way better than the version EA published. Though it also says the online activation can apparently be disabled just by deleting paul.dll, or so a random person claimed on a forum 13 years ago? Have to test that at some point.

RandomStranger wrote on 2022-06-19, 17:21:

Today's DRM is a lot more restrictive than anything before. Even if we include cancers like StarForce.

StarForce has gotten a much worse name than it actually deserves. Essentially it is just a kernel-mode driver, like SafeDisc, but because it had been developed by a Russian company, that did not have the close ties with Microsoft that Macrovision had, they did not achieve the same level of seamless integration into the OS, which sometimes resulted in certification issues. And when you have a certification issue with a boot-start kernel mode driver - you get a bluescreen. That's annoying.

RandomStranger wrote on 2022-06-19, 17:21:

There is maybe one that is worse, the one some late-2000s early-teens EA games had which limited the number of installs you could make. I think Spore and Sim City had this.

Securom PA (Product Activation), which is half-online (it requires to phone home for activation, but not after that). I encountered it with Crysis: Warhead, and hit the same "release date" check failure. Fortunately, the workaround of setting the clock back temporarily worked.

One particularly annoying disc-based DRM is TAGES. It is like SafeDisc and StarForce, but Alcohol 120% cannot crack it, and so far I don't know of any software that can reliably make backup copies / disc images of TAGES-protected games.

tannerstevo wrote on 2022-06-19, 16:37:

I have DSL. Well for me it isn't just the low speed, average 30 to 40KB\s, its's also that my internet goes out A LOT. I work du […]
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brostenen wrote on 2022-06-19, 15:31:

rmay635703 wrote on 2022-06-19, 00:26:

Dialup at best was half that

It was the best that I was able to calculate in a hurry. But yeah, that is low. Perhaps it was meant differently in a different context, yet came off as totally wrong. I just took the person at his word.

I have DSL.
Well for me it isn't just the low speed, average 30 to 40KB\s, its's also that my internet goes out A LOT.
I work during the week, but on weekends I can count on my internet going out at 8:30 am almost to the minute and then it may reconnect and disconnect half a dozen times during the morning.
Our neighborhood association has complained to centurylink , but they won't do anything as far as upgerades.

I feel privileged... I have 20megabit/s.

tannerstevo wrote on 2022-06-19, 16:37:

I have DSL. Well for me it isn't just the low speed, average 30 to 40KB\s, its's also that my internet goes out A LOT. I work du […]
Show full quote

brostenen wrote on 2022-06-19, 15:31:

rmay635703 wrote on 2022-06-19, 00:26:

Dialup at best was half that

It was the best that I was able to calculate in a hurry. But yeah, that is low. Perhaps it was meant differently in a different context, yet came off as totally wrong. I just took the person at his word.

I have DSL.
Well for me it isn't just the low speed, average 30 to 40KB\s, its's also that my internet goes out A LOT.
I work during the week, but on weekends I can count on my internet going out at 8:30 am almost to the minute and then it may reconnect and disconnect half a dozen times during the morning.
Our neighborhood association has complained to centurylink , but they won't do anything as far as upgerades.

So then you keep harassing them about not having a constant connection. If everyone that has them complains and complains and keeps getting bill credits for service being crappy they may change their tune.

I don't really hate modern games per-se, I just ignore them most of the time because they just don't fit my lifestyle.

#1 reason is because I don't have time for them. Modern games need hours and hours of dedication, and some of this crap requires a CLOUD connection, and it HARASSES you to play it if you don't visit once in awhile, even if you have a "free account". I have this problem with the games on my phone I use with Cricket's Ad It Up Program - I have to shut off notifications to get them to stop pestering me (not to mention AdItUp itself) to come visit my "homestead" because they "need me" or go "fight off the zombies now" or "you could win today" - like I care. Dragon Warrior does not harass me because I don't come back to Alefgard every damn day! Leisure Suit Larry does not beg me to come to the 386 because a hot chick is there and I NEED to get him to get with her! Gaming should be fun and unwanted stress free, not like a nagging parent or spouse trying to get you to do the dishes or take out the garbage. It's a bloody game - not a chore.

#2 Money - First off, AAA titles cost about $45 and require more hardware than I can afford right now, offering no more immersive experience to me than the older GTA titles or The Sims 2 did 10-15 years ago. So what's the point. I used to patron Scott Cawthon's FNaF Series because it was like $5-7 bucks per game, and the games were short spurt games (see #1). But my biggest annoyances are paywalls, DLC, and microtransactions. Playing that crap on AdItUp, even great old franchises like Angry Birds fall pray to it, and Im sick of playing games and having to close out six windows saying "get blah blah blah for only $0.99" - look, I'm playing these games to SAVE money, NOT SPEND money. So like Hell I'm paying some mobile developer $9.99 for a $10 game I'm trying to save the same amount of money on my phone bill each month by playing (when I can). Look, I'm cheap. My most expensive collection item is the $156 copy of Dragon Warrior IV, and I traded in a bunch of game stuff I did not play/use for it and paid not one dollar from my wallet. And it used to be anyway - when you bought the game, you got the WHOLE game. I would not be a fan of the NES if Super Mario Bros. told me I needed to pay Shigeru Miyamoto $20 to unlock levels 4-8. I would not play DOS games if Ron Gilbert was trying to ransom me in Monkey Island for Disks 64-125 just so I can see an arbitrary catacombs under a tree-stump! This is why I love old stuff. The only time I hit a paywall is when the puzzle is to find pieces of eight or grinding incessantly for a Broad Sword - which is a time investment, but I'm not being nagged and can do it on my own time.

#3 I'm old - I'm almost 40, I'm pretty set in my ways. I like 8-bit sprite, grindy, RPGs where all I need to do is cast a spell or use some item to "warp" back to the castle and save. I like old graphical adventures where I just navigate 2 steps through a menu to save my file on the local machine and not on a cloud that goes belly up in 10 years because the developer decided usership was "down". It impresses me such an open-world sandbox like Ultima VI/VII can exist on hardware that struggles to even render a basic 128K MP3 file, and let me bake bread, make it with a tavern wench, and cast Armegeddon with sweeping, world-breaking results! I like blowing 15-minutes on arcade classics like Pac-Man, Asteroids, or Space Invaders for no other reason than to kill time, or spending 9 minutes in a creepy Pizza Arcade with a bunch of homocidal robots at the most recent. I don't like worrying about losing my $15/mo cloud account, a pack of mean teens victimizing the elder gamer on the server when he's away, having games pestering me for money like some kind of digital parent who has a chore for me to do, or putting personal info out there about myself on platforms I deem "questionable" (I killed my Facebook last week).