TheMobRules wrote on 2022-05-26, 21:38:

In my view a clear example of a scalper would be those groups of people who set up bots to acquire the entire stock of PS5s seconds after it hit the stores, to sell it for 2x, 3x the MSRP. Not only they don't add any value to the production/distribution chain, they are actually a hindrance as stuff like warranty and manufacturer support can become compromised if buying from these people. I'm not a law expert, but that's definitely not "free market", in fact I don't think there would be many objections if it was made illegal. I know a big part of the problem is the inability of some people to exercise restraint when buying new shiny toys (FOMO as they call it), but I think it's not healthy (even for the manufacturers) for the market to be completely disrupted by a few people with more money than they know what to do with.

That is the free market in essence. If people keep on buying PS5s for more than the retail price, then obviously official retailers don't charge enough money for them. Those traders (which you call scalpers) use arbitrage to profit from the high demand even at the higher price. They add value in the sense that they make the product available for those with the deepest pockets, instead of to those who have most time to shop around all day long. Don't forget that the trader needs to invest time and money to sell (market) the product. When the official retailers get enough stock (supply) from Sony, then the third party trade will fade as it becomes no longer profitable. The ''scalping'' or arbitrage as I like to call it is self correcting.

SpectriaForce wrote on 2022-06-25, 19:29:

That is the free market in essence. If people keep on buying PS5s for more than the retail price, then obviously official retailers don't charge enough money for them. Those traders (which you call scalpers) use arbitrage to profit from the high demand even at the higher price. They add value in the sense that they make the product available for those with the deepest pockets, instead of to those who have most time to shop around all day long. Don't forget that the trader needs to invest time and money to sell (market) the product. When the official retailers get enough stock (supply) from Sony, then the third party trade will fade as it becomes no longer profitable. The ''scalping'' or arbitrage as I like to call it is self correcting.

That is not a realistic description of a free market, unless you're talking about an absolutely unregulated free market, which does not really exist (and even in that case it's a stretch). Even in the most capitalist countries there is some sort of regulation to prevent prices from going out of whack, and it's not necessarily limited to essential goods like food. Sony may not have taken action yet, but if/when studios that develop exclusive games start complaining about low sales they'll have to find a way to either increase production or stop the scalpers. If it was a price issue they would just raise it themselves, but they won't because they need to be competitive, that's the "free market" part. Do you think a company like Sony goes "yeah, we could sell all our stock overnight at $1500, but we're nice so we'll just ask for 1/3 of that" when they develop their pricing strategy? This is the price they have come up with for the revenue they have projected given their current supply, and neither them nor the retailers have found a need to increase it, so that is the actual "market value" of a retail product, not whatever BS the scalpers come up with.

Your attempt to make scalpers look as legitimate businessmen sounds like something that would make even Adam Smith blush, do you really believe your argument about this "value" they're adding? This is detrimental even for "those with the deepest pockets" in some way, the only ones that see a benefit are the ones scalping. They are only able to get away with this due to the inability of online stores to limit their sales per customer, but it is clear this negatively affects every party involved in some way except for them, so the best option for a healthy market to do is to just take these unwanted and unneeded terms out of the equation.

So how would Sony go about stopping scalpers?

Do they come up with a "background check" system where somebody has to apply to be able to purchase a system and also limit the sales to one per household?

They would have to only sell directly to consumers.. aka mail-order.

Do you think that that would help in any way, shape, or form?

Or are they going to need to start some sort of gestapo to go murder the scalpers? Control through fear....

No need to murder anyone. Just coordinate with retailers to enforce more controls on the sales, that kind of stuff. Plenty of bands/artists come up with ways to prevent scalpers on their shows, and in many places it is downright illegal to scalp tickets. Shows/events have been forced to come up with ways to fight scalpers due to the "supply" being so limited by the nature of that business, retail could definitely learn something from it. As I mentioned above, just improving the online store apps to more reliably detect and block bots would go a long way in alleviating the problem. No solution is 100% effective, but that's how the world works, the police still tries to capture criminals even if they can't all be caught.

Would it help? Definitely. In this particular example, Sony would get way more "active" consoles in user's homes out there as soon as possible, which they need as much as the sale itself (as opposed to being idle in a scalper's basement). Buyers would still have to deal with the supply shortage (no way around that for now it seems), but at least there wouldn't be overpricing and no risk of getting it from a dodgy "trader" that could leave you without warranty/support.

But I don't want to derail the thread anymore, as feipoa intended this to be a way to track retro hardware prices. I'm just surprised we got to the point where it needs to be stated why scalpers and their bots are a bad thing for everyone. So that's it as far as I'm concerned.

Another several of these posts? Oh dear. The original intent of the thread was to track sold prices of retro hardware. While some interjection of personal opinion and habits were to be expected, I didn't think over 50% of the thread would be overrun with it. Does anyone have any interesting values of sold retro items to share?

Retro computer enthusiast is suppose to be about “research and experiencing the past to know the future”.
Its NOT about exploiting the purchase value of the hardware.
Its about the software and games.
The hardware is not relevant. The hardware is just about “Speed and Performance” of the software.
And driver compatibility.
The hardware should be transparent to the user of the computer.
That was the mindset of Apple and IBM. To make the computer “EASY” to use.
You don’t have to be a computer engineer to use a computer.
When I build a computer I put “Compatibility FIRST” and Performance last.
Although you do want good performance compatibility is more important.
You want your hardware to work and be compatible with the software and games you are going to run.
In retro computers its NOT about SPEED but about compatibility.
Some DOS games run better SLOW and others need more boost for better frame rates.
Most 8bit and 16bit sound cards perform fine at slow speeds but 32 bit and 64 bit sound cards may require a Pentium class CPU.

So Ideally, for best DOS game play compatibility and performance you want a First gen. Pentium 75 thru 233 or AMD K6-2 or K6-3 CPU.
Of which can be slowed down to 386 and 486 speeds by disabling cache in bios.
So you really don’t need those old 486 and older computers for good DOS game play.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2022-06-26, 09:37:

Retro computer enthusiast is suppose to be about “research and experiencing the past to know the future”. Its NOT about exploiti […]
Show full quote

Retro computer enthusiast is suppose to be about “research and experiencing the past to know the future”.
Its NOT about exploiting the purchase value of the hardware.
Its about the software and games.
The hardware is not relevant. The hardware is just about “Speed and Performance” of the software.
And driver compatibility.
The hardware should be transparent to the user of the computer.
That was the mindset of Apple and IBM. To make the computer “EASY” to use.
You don’t have to be a computer engineer to use a computer.
When I build a computer I put “Compatibility FIRST” and Performance last.
Although you do want good performance compatibility is more important.
You want your hardware to work and be compatible with the software and games you are going to run.
In retro computers its NOT about SPEED but about compatibility.
Some DOS games run better SLOW and others need more boost for better frame rates.
Most 8bit and 16bit sound cards perform fine at slow speeds but 32 bit and 64 bit sound cards may require a Pentium class CPU.

So Ideally, for best DOS game play compatibility and performance you want a First gen. Pentium 75 thru 233 or AMD K6-2 or K6-3 CPU.
Of which can be slowed down to 386 and 486 speeds by disabling cache in bios.
So you really don’t need those old 486 and older computers for good DOS game play.

Sure but some people like older period correct stuff , I've got a nice 233MMX swiss army DOS pc with a bajilion cards to cover a bunch of stuff, but who am I to tell other people that prefer a 386 or 486 that they're wrong.

I don't think people being attached to a certain generation of PC is wrong , If anything id say the hardware is moreso the crux of everything, since if you want ease of use you could just use emulation through PCEM or DOSBOX or ScummVM if hardware isn't an issue.

And you seem to be contradicting yourself afterwards with the whole speed is the problem child and not compatibility thing since the problem -is- compatibility , more so than even performance to a huge fault.

See the issue is people want compatibility to run 3dfx glide games or have sound blaster pro compatibility or Roland mt32 support. And sellers know this so they jack up the prices knowing they can squeeze a desperate person who wants a experience real MPU 401 interface with a real MT32 , they want to make you crawl so you can have a taste of that retro dopamine hit.

The compatible stuff is usually what gets pay gated baring rare exceptions like S3 Trio cards being so abundant that prices are still nice and low. The more niche it gets the worse the price becomes , if say you want an Adlib Gold to experience Dune "as intended" you need to spend unfathomable amounts.

Ditto for the gravis ultrasound.

So you can build a much faster computer no problem , hell even a socket 370 with ISA slots, but the further you move away the more compatibility bites you in the arse and again people know this so that's where the silly prices begin to take hold , supply and demand.

I don't think people should be crucified just because they think a Tandy 1000 is quaint. Ideally all this old crap shouldn't cost extreme amounts and everyone should be able to enjoy what they pick and choose but unfortunately that's not how the market works.

Thankfully Vogons has dedicated people who want to reverse engineer everything so at least people have other options as compatible hardware gets more expensive.

TheMobRules wrote on 2022-06-26, 03:13:

SpectriaForce wrote on 2022-06-25, 19:29:

That is the free market in essence. If people keep on buying PS5s for more than the retail price, then obviously official retailers don't charge enough money for them. Those traders (which you call scalpers) use arbitrage to profit from the high demand even at the higher price. They add value in the sense that they make the product available for those with the deepest pockets, instead of to those who have most time to shop around all day long. Don't forget that the trader needs to invest time and money to sell (market) the product. When the official retailers get enough stock (supply) from Sony, then the third party trade will fade as it becomes no longer profitable. The ''scalping'' or arbitrage as I like to call it is self correcting.

That is not a realistic description of a free market, unless you're talking about an absolutely unregulated free market, which does not really exist (and even in that case it's a stretch). Even in the most capitalist countries there is some sort of regulation to prevent prices from going out of whack, and it's not necessarily limited to essential goods like food. Sony may not have taken action yet, but if/when studios that develop exclusive games start complaining about low sales they'll have to find a way to either increase production or stop the scalpers. If it was a price issue they would just raise it themselves, but they won't because they need to be competitive, that's the "free market" part. Do you think a company like Sony goes "yeah, we could sell all our stock overnight at $1500, but we're nice so we'll just ask for 1/3 of that" when they develop their pricing strategy? This is the price they have come up with for the revenue they have projected given their current supply, and neither them nor the retailers have found a need to increase it, so that is the actual "market value" of a retail product, not whatever BS the scalpers come up with.

Your attempt to make scalpers look as legitimate businessmen sounds like something that would make even Adam Smith blush, do you really believe your argument about this "value" they're adding? This is detrimental even for "those with the deepest pockets" in some way, the only ones that see a benefit are the ones scalping. They are only able to get away with this due to the inability of online stores to limit their sales per customer, but it is clear this negatively affects every party involved in some way except for them, so the best option for a healthy market to do is to just take these unwanted and unneeded terms out of the equation.

Not only do I agree with what you write here, but rules for trade are actually a core essential part of a healthy society. Without any rules, there's no reason for people to outright scam people or start selling sugar infused with heroine or other contaminated items.
Rules are essential and scalpers can have the wind taken from their sails with the help of rules, which is a very valid and essential strategy to help keep societies clean and thriving.
Scalpers merely try to thrive due to a lack of rules. Enforce more rules and they will have a harder time existing without anyone else in society really being at a disadvantage.
Someone who is really very rich would be better off just buying a card from someone who did manage to get one at the lower price, no need for a middleman there.

feipoa wrote on 2022-06-26, 05:26:

Another several of these posts? Oh dear. The original intent of the thread was to track sold prices of retro hardware. While some interjection of personal opinion and habits were to be expected, I didn't think over 50% of the thread would be overrun with it. Does anyone have any interesting values of sold retro items to share?

One issue this thread had from the beginning is that it's closely related to a subject with a higher level of stratification, so to say. Higher levels of polarization and we get more debates like these popping up. It's fairly inevitable with a subject like this one here as it's unlikely people will change their mind over this. Part will be in their right and other part will never accept this for whatever but various reasons.

By mentioning this I am in no way trying to excuse myself, because you are 100% right with what you say here. But it's somewhat to be expected.
In the end it's the admins who make the rules here. I'm merely stating the obvious.

AppleSauce wrote on 2022-06-26, 12:19:

Thankfully Vogons has dedicated people who want to reverse engineer everything so at least people have other options as compatible hardware gets more expensive.

Amen to this 😀
I love seeing these projects pop up and I don't care much for "AwH My GoD Meh StaHs Haz DecREssEd in Value nAW" simply because some old card I happen to have a couple of suddenly shot up in value because of some craze I had no part in whatsoever and then seeing prices drop again because suddenly this "highly sought after rare piece of history" has become reproducible. I love seeing this level of creativity and appreciation of something that was at one point seen as junk.

Sometimes when I see some of the prices here, my jaw keeps hitting the floor with amazement. At some point you get kinda used to it I guess.

Usually I don't really bother adding my opinion about this as I've stated it before and because tbh it's not a subject that's on my mind in my usual daily life. And regardless of what I think of this it's not something I can influence anyway 😜 and I can accept that. People can be scummy...well nothing new there 🤣.
I know it's there, but it doesn't really bother me anyway.

“Barrel batteries and Capacitors”
The Problem is people are reselling these old motherboards and components that have barrel batteries and capacitors for
Prices equal to or above original retail price.

The Problem is “Electronics have a Life span too” some call it a “Warranty expiration date”.
Barrel batteries don’t last forever and will need to be replaced.
“Capacitors” definitely need to be replaced in old electronics.
These components will burst and begin to LEAK there NASTY STUFF all over the PCB and Destroy the coating and traces on the PCB.
There by ruining the motherboard or PC Card or CDROM drive.
That is Why these computer components should NOT be sold at HIGH Costs.
They are past their “Expiration date of Warranty”.
Their is NO telling how long a used motherboard or PC Card or CDROM drive or floppy drive will lasts.
The Capacitors in these components are already going BAD.
I feel like these used computer component resellers are taking advantage of the Retro computer enthusiast because
Most are young people that may not fully understand how electronics work but just want to build an old computer to play
Old computer games.
This is What makes me angry at these computer component resellers that are taking advantage of unsuspecting
Computer builders. These old electronics are already going BAD and are way past their “Warranty period”

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2022-06-26, 09:37:

The hardware is not relevant. The hardware is just about “Speed and Performance” of the software.

that's a pretty bad take, of course the hardware is relevant, not just for the sake of running software on it but purely for it's historical significance, it's developement over time and how PC architectures work.

I don't like to discuss value and prices much, because mostly what it does is invite scalpers to buy up everything "valuable" they can find to resell it for profit.

imi wrote on 2022-06-26, 16:53:

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2022-06-26, 09:37:

The hardware is not relevant. The hardware is just about “Speed and Performance” of the software.

that's a pretty bad take, of course the hardware is relevant, not just for the sake of running software on it but purely for it's historical significance, it's developement over time and how PC architectures work.

I don't like to discuss value and prices much, because mostly what it does is invite scalpers to buy up everything "valuable" they can find to resell it for profit.

Yes of course, you have the issue with sound cards and noise and sound blaster note bugs.
And Video cards and certain game compatibility.

It appears that for DOS game play compatibility CHEAP is the way to go.
These old S3 and Cirrus Logic video cards have good DOS game play compatibility and Windows Program compatibility.
These are abundant and cheap.

As for sound cards there are allot of Cheap sound cards that play DOS games good.
And they don’t have the Sound Blaster Note bug.

So when building an old Retro computer for game play and programs going with inexpensive components
Is not a bad way to go.

TheMobRules wrote on 2022-06-26, 03:13:

Your attempt to make scalpers look as legitimate businessmen sounds like something that would make even Adam Smith blush, do you really believe your argument about this "value" they're adding? This is detrimental even for "those with the deepest pockets" in some way, the only ones that see a benefit are the ones scalping. They are only able to get away with this due to the inability of online stores to limit their sales per customer, but it is clear this negatively affects every party involved in some way except for them, so the best option for a healthy market to do is to just take these unwanted and unneeded terms out of the equation.

100% agreement. Scalpers are the lowest scum of the earth, and people who try to justify / couch in "capitalistic" language their continued existence as doing good, are also totally enabling their proliferation.

Again, to remain somewhat relavant to the thread's intention, I'm still very glad that some hardware still exists, like core2duo CPUs and motherboards that can be purchased for a reasonable price. Scalpers haven't murdered *that* market quite yet. Give it time, give it time, though.

The Top end Core 2 stuff is infected however, anything extreme or ASUS Rampage/extreme related is stupidly priced, same for Intel SkullTrail stuff. I dont believe its all scalpers but some of it is as you will see certain sellers buy up the top end ASUS stuff and relist it at a higher markup ...its bloody annoying but there isn't much you can do about scalpers other than avoid buying from them.

Core2Quad QX CPUs are also scalped pretty bad, prices for the QX9770 have always been high but there is at least two sellers I know of that snatch up any reasonably priced ones and relist them at stupid prices, I get that they are just being good little capitalists but fuck if they are not aggressive bastards.

A SkullTrail setup is one of the last things on my bucket list of Core2 stuff to get, already have the CPUs but the boards are priced way out of range.

On Topic ... Saw a rather rare item the other day listed for 3,500 USD, a complete new in box 3DO Blaster with a new in box CR Rom that it needs to function., never actually seen a NIB one of these before let alone have the needed CDROM as part of the deal.

zyzzle wrote on 2022-06-27, 04:19:

TheMobRules wrote on 2022-06-26, 03:13:

Your attempt to make scalpers look as legitimate businessmen sounds like something that would make even Adam Smith blush, do you really believe your argument about this "value" they're adding? This is detrimental even for "those with the deepest pockets" in some way, the only ones that see a benefit are the ones scalping. They are only able to get away with this due to the inability of online stores to limit their sales per customer, but it is clear this negatively affects every party involved in some way except for them, so the best option for a healthy market to do is to just take these unwanted and unneeded terms out of the equation.

100% agreement. Scalpers are the lowest scum of the earth, and people who try to justify / couch in "capitalistic" language their continued existence as doing good, are also totally enabling their proliferation.

If you can't think of anyone worse than a "scalper", you live a pretty great life.

Plasma wrote on 2022-06-27, 04:46:

zyzzle wrote on 2022-06-27, 04:19:

TheMobRules wrote on 2022-06-26, 03:13:

Your attempt to make scalpers look as legitimate businessmen sounds like something that would make even Adam Smith blush, do you really believe your argument about this "value" they're adding? This is detrimental even for "those with the deepest pockets" in some way, the only ones that see a benefit are the ones scalping. They are only able to get away with this due to the inability of online stores to limit their sales per customer, but it is clear this negatively affects every party involved in some way except for them, so the best option for a healthy market to do is to just take these unwanted and unneeded terms out of the equation.

100% agreement. Scalpers are the lowest scum of the earth, and people who try to justify / couch in "capitalistic" language their continued existence as doing good, are also totally enabling their proliferation.

If you can't think of anyone worse than a "scalper", you live a pretty great life.

Indeed, scalpers are bad but I can think of many thing considerably worse in life.

What is scalping when it comes to retro though? I would say it would be charging higher than the reasonable cost to acquire and maintain it. Let's look at that, the smallest fee charged by a mailbox co to hold a package, the only small item storage I could think of was parcel holding and that runs 1c a pound a month at the cheapest, which for like a 30lb system would be $9 a month, so upwards of a thousand bucks to hold it for a decade ready for when you think it's retro enough for you. Residential closet space for such a thing likely has a real cost of around $2 a month as divided from living costs in smaller cities, not NY or LA etc. That adds up near $300. Smallest rental storage unit which you could cram several in might cost a buck each a month... but now you're talking volume so obviously a scalper even if you delivered the item nearer 200 than 300 as you kept storage costs in line. Obviously getting your own warehouse somewhere out of the way might be cheaper per unit still, but now you're in a high volume business I guess. So where is it unreasonable priced, over a thousand if it was a single piece storage situation, or nearer $300 in a home... "I coulda bought that for $5 10 years ago..." right, you didn't though. Maybe go look see where you can get a ride in a time machine for $100 and go and pick it up back in 2012, save yourself some money.

A lot of what is described in this thread is not even scalping, which is why I put the word in quotes. Some people just refuse to acknowledge the increase in fair market value for items which are no longer produced yet increasing in demand.

BitWrangler wrote on 2022-06-27, 04:56:

What is scalping when it comes to retro though? I would say it would be charging higher than the reasonable cost to acquire and maintain it. Let's look at that, the smallest fee charged by a mailbox co to hold a package, the only small item storage I could think of was parcel holding and that runs 1c a pound a month at the cheapest, which for like a 30lb system would be $9 a month, so upwards of a thousand bucks to hold it for a decade ready for when you think it's retro enough for you. Residential closet space for such a thing likely has a real cost of around $2 a month as divided from living costs in smaller cities, not NY or LA etc. That adds up near $300. Smallest rental storage unit which you could cram several in might cost a buck each a month... but now you're talking volume so obviously a scalper even if you delivered the item nearer 200 than 300 as you kept storage costs in line. Obviously getting your own warehouse somewhere out of the way might be cheaper per unit still, but now you're in a high volume business I guess. So where is it unreasonable priced, over a thousand if it was a single piece storage situation, or nearer $300 in a home... "I coulda bought that for $5 10 years ago..." right, you didn't though. Maybe go look see where you can get a ride in a time machine for $100 and go and pick it up back in 2012, save yourself some money.

Computer parts take up a reasonable amount of space and need to be treated relatively delicately. If they want to save space (to save on rent for an extra storage unit or something) they should scalp something that is physically smaller, like for instance a trading card game but I'm guessing that that market is already quite severely saturated by scalpers (so there's just too much competition) that they can't find anything at reasonable prices anymore so they give up 😋or move to a market where there's less competition.

Scalping computer parts is in a way also relatively secure in that future supply is also kinda guaranteed as new computers will flood the market for old computer parts somewhere in the future provided not something huge changes.

One more thing scalpers make worse for the retro computing market is this:
The thing with computer parts, whether you agree or disagree is kinda irrelevant as this is a scientifically proven fact, is that ESD is a thing and the more the parts change hands (and they typically will if the parts has had more previous owners....and there will have been more previous owners the more scalpers are active) the more will be lost. Most scalpers will do it for the money and things liki proper storage and proper handling will probably be seen by many of them as a time and money consuming inconvenience.

One more thing I'd like to add btw is that despite my overall dislike of executive conceptual parasitism (or whatever class scalping may be considered part of when looking at the bigger picture), it doesn't mean I would want to somehow dehumanize them. Why would I want to ehm...physically maltreat them in any way? It won't solve anything anyway and doesn't really help alleviate the tension dialogues like these can stir up.
I wouldn't be opposed to have a conversation with one of them and listen to his or her side of the story because even if I don't agree with them, from their perspective they may not see any harm or have interesting stories of their own to tell.

Like one scrapper (I know it's not the same as a scalper 😜 ), he drove his van around looking for old junk he could scrap which mainly included old computer equipment. Sure I don't like him pulling out old harddrives for the metal contents but the way he does his dumpsterdiving is very similar to how I used to do it, except I used a bike instead of a van 😜

Of course there will be some unscrupulous peeps in the field (it could fit the scalping area as it's usually a somewhat more morale-devoid market) but people who get a kick from scamming and 'outsmarting the rules' are often people you wouldn't want to be near anyway unless you really have to.

So lets just stop saying things like wanting to burn fulthy scalpers alive at the stake or whatever and such please, ok? 🙂
I mean there's got to be people who do some occasional buying of parts we think will be harder to find later on, but at the same time are hobbyists. I mean I went and bought all Voodoo 3 cards I could find cheaply locally at some time because I saw their value (as in great cards for super 7, they were like €5 each back then and I never even sold one since), but that doesn't make me a scalper.
In a way I was just more clever back then, but does that make scalpers more clever as well? In a way they are. Clever, risktakers and with a relatively low morality. From this I could deduct scalpers would see people like us as: Dumb, always-playing-it-safe or lazy and thinking highly of themselves, but undeservingly so (so in essence they might view us as if we deserve to be separated from our money). So they don't see what they are doing wrong. it's a free market after all 😜

Anyway, this could go on forever and we'd never reach concensus. So I'd suggest we leave this thread for what it was supposed to be (like Feipoa already mentioned).

Perhaps split this off to another thread or something?