twiz11 wrote on 2022-07-11, 00:40:

I became utterly depressed with how I no longer find PC experimentation fun, no dumpster diving anymore because no pcs out laying by the road. Ever since Dosbox/GNU/Linux things just work and that irritates me. I am no longer needed, I am too old since the internet made me obsolete

🙁 those pioneering days have gone and with it the requirements to have a certain amount of know how

i can see very skilled users of computer tech now who don't really understand the tech itself very well, but isn't that the intent? Like with a car, the purpose is to get somewhere not to park up and change the filters and tune the carb all the time. Still, i do understand that sense of losing those pioneering days

darry wrote on 2022-07-11, 01:03:

The fun part has shifted to SBCs like the Raspberry and similar, IMHO .

yes good point, the stuff people are doing there is very creative, very technically minded and overall a great scene

having said that the PC is never 'soulless' to me, whatever that means, its still an amazing general purpose computing machine with so many possibilities!

I started disliking PC gaming when the trend of micro transactions, season passes, games as a service and always online DRM became the norm. That and the increasing privacy invasion of modern operating systems really turned me off of present day gaming.

In addition, game design has suffered as well. Nowadays, publishers are mostly churning out sequels and remakes which often don't have much in common with their legendary predecessors, other than the name.

yeah, but that's all software like I said, hardware tinkering still has a lot of soul in it.

imi wrote on 2022-07-11, 08:35:

yeah, but that's all software like I said, hardware tinkering still has a lot of soul in it.

I agree with that.

There are a few things which currently make it harder to enjoy the whole "building a new PC" process, like the limited supply of certain components and the over inflated prices of others. But thankfully, that seems to be slowly resolving itself, as evidenced by GPU prices coming down.

good think we can always resort to building with older hardware and install software on it that was still good 😁

darry wrote on 2022-07-11, 01:03:

The fun part has shifted to SBCs like the Raspberry and similar, IMHO . Additionally, even modern PCs can run Linux very well.

I feel the same. I'm stuck with a Pi for roughly 5 years now. As a PC alternative.
I started with a Pi 3, then "upgraded" to a Pi 4.

Experimenting with PiFM, PySSTV and other things is fun, really!
A lot of neat experiments are done with Pis.

Like for example, making a replica of a miniature satellite - https://github.com/alanbjohnston/CubeSatSim
The Lite version essentially plays back some pre-recorded telemetry via FM radio.

I just wished I had a more powerful system at hand, again.
Browsing the web on a Pi 4 is very resource demanding.
Unfortunately, in these days of the pandemic, it's very hard to find anything useful that's affordable.
Back in 2020/2021, webcams were a rare item. Now it's the Pi.
Sure, the Pi 400 and Pico are still made. But the latter is just a better Arduino.
And other SBCs lack the Pi community. That's the most important, not the hardware specs.
I'm still using vintage Pi 1s for new projects because if this.
Used Pi 1 models are still around for a few bucks. Gratefully.

Yes, you're right about the relationship of 80s home computers and the Raspberry, I think.
The parallels do exist. The way the PI's GPIO pins are used for bit-banging and hardware expansion are similar to the old USER port applications.
Or the vast homebrew parallel port (+serial port) circuits from the early 90s on PC/DOS.
Anyway, the spirit lives on. That's what matters the most, I think.
There were situations in which I thought about bringing the DOS and Pi worlds together.
Say, controlling a serial device through a QB45 program on a Pi running a DOS emulator.
For certain tasks, DOSBox and and rpix86 would suffice. 🙂

In my opinion PC became that way once they began to not be "closed box products" in the sense before then you could buy or build them but they existed to offer a specific limited set of features without things the user has no benefit from having and not even the choice of having a lighter or more optimized config. Complexity above complexity to basically doing the same tasks old computer did, only adding an awful amount of more weight for cpu, ram, gpu, hd, not cause the user needed that but because it was required to be that way, even if someone might need a computer only as a "math calculator" (edit: I imagine some might still need a modern PC to do very basic office tasks a 80486 could).
I suppose the 2007 and later smartphone evolution in both hw and sw has much to do with this and somehow computers tried and try the same way to offer services and not optimized well written few light and bug free features; also to add to that all the usual infinite upgrades at a point we have weekly or monthly patches or things like that, like we already expect something might need to be patched.

So maybe I'd say around the UEFI period also adding the amount of server based apps, all those new logics to sell 'free' sw as a service instead of buying few sw needed without the extra weight of all those hundreds of processes when the same tasks people need a digital device for could have been possible even on some Pentium III like configs and somehow same apps existed already. And the hardware design/drivers imho followed the same road.

Jo22 wrote on 2022-07-11, 21:38:

I feel the same. I'm stuck with a Pi for roughly 5 years now. As a PC alternative. I started with a Pi 3, then "upgraded" to a P […]
Show full quote

darry wrote on 2022-07-11, 01:03:

The fun part has shifted to SBCs like the Raspberry and similar, IMHO . Additionally, even modern PCs can run Linux very well.

I feel the same. I'm stuck with a Pi for roughly 5 years now. As a PC alternative.
I started with a Pi 3, then "upgraded" to a Pi 4.

Experimenting with PiFM, PySSTV and other things is fun, really!
A lot of neat experiments are done with Pis.

Like for example, making a replica of a miniature satellite - https://github.com/alanbjohnston/CubeSatSim
The Lite version essentially plays back some pre-recorded telemetry via FM radio.

I just wished I had a more powerful system at hand, again.
Browsing the web on a Pi 4 is very resource demanding.
Unfortunately, in these days of the pandemic, it's very hard to find anything useful that's affordable.
Back in 2020/2021, webcams were a rare item. Now it's the Pi.
Sure, the Pi 400 and Pico are still made. But the latter is just a better Arduino.
And other SBCs lack the Pi community. That's the most important, not the hardware specs.
I'm still using vintage Pi 1s for new projects because if this.
Used Pi 1 models are still around for a few bucks. Gratefully.

Yes, you're right about the relationship of 80s home computers and the Raspberry, I think.
The parallels do exist. The way the PI's GPIO pins are used for bit-banging and hardware expansion are similar to the old USER port applications.
Or the vast homebrew parallel port (+serial port) circuits from the early 90s on PC/DOS.
Anyway, the spirit lives on. That's what matters the most, I think.
There were situations in which I thought about bringing the DOS and Pi worlds together.
Say, controlling a serial device through a QB45 program on a Pi running a DOS emulator.
For certain tasks, DOSBox and and rpix86 would suffice. 🙂

I liked and used most version of Raspberry Pi SBCs but the last one, but I think their main good side was to be cheap and an alternative interesting way of having a community supported device but once they became rare and expensive they've lost my interest. Also at a certain point I'd have preferred to have some new design like having some common SO-DIMM like socket that would increase a lot its lifetime not having to depend on the lifetime of a single ram module and also the limits of an increasing weight of linux too. At that point any more cheap DDR2 based x64 configs are incredibly more expandable and interesting still using linux anyway. 😉

386SX wrote on 2022-07-12, 10:57:

In my opinion PC became that way once they began to not be "closed box products" in the sense before then you could buy or build them but they existed to offer a specific limited set of features without things the user has no benefit from having and not even the choice of having a lighter or more optimized config. Complexity above complexity to basically doing the same tasks old computer did, only adding an awful amount of more weight for cpu, ram, gpu, hd, not cause the user needed that but because it was required to be that way, even if someone would need a computer only as a math calculator.
I suppose the 2007 and later smartphone evolution in both hw and sw has much to do with this and somehow computers tried and try the same way to offer services and not optimized well written few light and bug free features; also to add to that all the usual infinite upgrades at a point we have weekly or monthly patches or things like that, like we already expect something might need to be patched.

So maybe I'd say around the UEFI period also adding the amount of server based apps, all those new logics to sell "free" sw as a service instead of buying for few sw needed without the extra weight of all those hundreds of processes when the same tasks people need a digital device for could have been possible even on some Pentium III like configs and somehow same apps existed already. And the hardware design/drivers imho followed the same road.

I think you pretty much nailed it, though that is not a computer specific issue, that's just how our economy works, can't "grow" without producing/selling ever new crap nobody needs

I'm all for innovation and new technologies, but only if they actually bring something new to the table, make things easier or bring us forward... not just to sell us ever new crap that just does the same thing, and just bring changes for the sake of being able to say "it's new" that don't actually make anything better or easier.
though again, that is more of a software issue, there certainly are uses for newer more powerful hardware beyond just a home "math calculator" ^^

DosFreak wrote on 2022-07-10, 18:20:

https://cheapskatesguide.org/articles/pluton.html
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_i … Windows-Default
🤣 https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/hardwar … 498#post1333498

That is just sad, again. Corrupt software baked into technically nice hardware, making the package as a whole less then nothing.

imi wrote on 2022-07-12, 14:11:

though again, that is more of a software issue, there certainly are uses for newer more powerful hardware beyond just a home "math calculator" ^^

Sure the software as it's designed is basically the main reason of this situation that became the same way also in the drivers side when I think to these "light" 500MB drivers packages with all sort of services, background processes, dependencies, whatever.
Even some basic productivity app weight more than entire old o.s. that already had the same app that probably still open the same documents. Everything feels so heavy to do things in the past felt so light and optimized.

Most of 90s PC hardware was "soulless". It changed in 00s with DFI LanParty motherboards, designed for UV lightning and huge emphasis on overclocking, and other eye-catching stuff. And now we have RGB EVERYWHERE with barely any OC headroom and it's soulless again =P

gerwin wrote on 2022-07-12, 16:01:

DosFreak wrote on 2022-07-10, 18:20:

https://cheapskatesguide.org/articles/pluton.html
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_i … Windows-Default
🤣 https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/hardwar … 498#post1333498

That is just sad, again. Corrupt software baked into technically nice hardware, making the package as a whole less then nothing.

UEFI/certificates.. That's a scenario I warned friends and forum people about for roughly over a decade, but no one believed me. 🙁

But it's not just certificates. The complete design concept was a wrong decision.
Once you start implementing a complicated security system, it needs updates on a regular basis (the more complex a system is, the more vulnerable it is). So the list of certificates can get updated, for example, in case one or more leaked.
Which in turn implies a network connection nowadays, which in turn is a security risk on its own. What if the server gets hacked?

Imagine UEFI being infected by malicious code.. Since UEFI is working transparently (behind the curtain), the user's OS won't be able to detect or prevent any malicious actions. It could encrypt memory locations or prevent access to some locations, for example.
Even more, UEFI is working like a virus, like a trojan horse.
It's a system on its own, akin to the Minix OS in certain intel chipsets.
It's waiting in a dark corner, in its net, for a victim, like a giant spider.

It make you compare these to the old bios design which was difficult to update or read from "even using the official tools" and firmware sometimes, not to mention the oldest ones that were not even intended to be updated ever they felt like an improvement. First time I've entered at boot into a modern bios I was thinking why that concept changed at first.. mouse, GUI, background animations, internet TCP/IP stack, drivers. And searching for an update existed only a single one after much time and at the end only a single update were released for that mainboard.

Jo22 wrote on 2022-07-12, 16:50:

UEFI/certificates.. That's a scenario I warned friends and forum people about for roughly over a decade, but no one believed me. 🙁
...

Don't know the specifics you are mentioning there.
I remember something from a few years ago, about Microsoft supplying such essential certificates to the Linux deployment. Because Microsoft had that privilege, and Linux did not. Some wrote that being nice of them, others found it a horrible situation.
It is the usual insertion of a central authority that can step in at any time and extinguish whatever. With the software side of things being harder to control by a central authority, because people can write software by themselves for themselves, predictably industry then does a power-grab through their fabs making the hardware with baked-in software. Predictably mainly 'for your safety'.

gerwin wrote on 2022-07-12, 17:17:

Jo22 wrote on 2022-07-12, 16:50:

UEFI/certificates.. That's a scenario I warned friends and forum people about for roughly over a decade, but no one believed me. 🙁
...

Don't know the specifics you are mentioning there.

Sorry, I didn't mean anyone here at Vogons. 😅
I was talking about the guys I talked with in other, mainly German computer forums I was visiting.
In the 2000s, I often expressed my concerns about EFI (later known as UEFI) as an universal replacement of the old BIOS.
Things like Open Firmware, SeaBIOS etc would have been alternatives, which were more modest (humble), too.

Edit: Forgot the part about openness. Yes, that's also important IMHO.
As you said, the PC platform used to be an open platform.

It started with off-the-shelf parts, standard slots (PC/AT bus, ISA) and a cloned BIOS.
Even DOS wad made by different manufacturers. The rest is history.

For me it started to die when I got broadband and died somewhere when AGP became extinct circa 2004. At that time I was in college and computer hardware was no longer exciting, still gamed for a good 10 years though. Not so much anymore.

Jo22 wrote on 2022-07-12, 17:29:

Sorry, I didn't mean anyone here at Vogons. 😅

I just meant, I don't know the specifics because I did not put the effort in. Instead I just probe a few IT affairs once in a while, and then it is the same general direction of things anyways.

Jo22 wrote on 2022-07-12, 17:29:

I was talking about the guys I talked with in other, mainly German computer forums I was visiting.
In the 2000s, I often expressed my concerns about EFI (later known as UEFI) as an universal replacement of the old BIOS.
Things like Open Firmware, SeaBIOS etc would have been alternatives, which were more modest (humble), too.

Sounds like an early and good initiative.

Jo22 wrote on 2022-07-12, 17:29:

Edit: Forgot the part about openness. Yes, that's also important IMHO. As you said, the PC platform used to be an open platform. […]
Show full quote

Edit: Forgot the part about openness. Yes, that's also important IMHO.
As you said, the PC platform used to be an open platform.
It started with off-the-shelf parts, standard slots (PC/AT bus, ISA) and a cloned BIOS.
Even DOS wad made by different manufacturers. The rest is history.

No problem, but I cannot find where I wrote that. 😉
PC was never open source in general in the 80's and 90's. But still, it felt like a harmless playground, less political.. kinda fun. The hardware could sometimes be so crappy as to drive one crazy, but the software, though closed source, seemed to have hardly any strings attached.

It is unfortunate that DOS was not really extensible, mainly because of the real mode memory limitation. Then much of that legacy over-complicating Windows 9x. Something that only got solved with Windows 2000/XP. (excluding Windows NT here, because it was not that desirable for general home usage)

imi wrote on 2022-07-12, 14:11:

I'm all for innovation and new technologies, but only if they actually bring something new to the table, make things easier or bring us forward... not just to sell us ever new crap that just does the same thing, and just bring changes for the sake of being able to say "it's new" that don't actually make anything better or easier.
though again, that is more of a software issue, there certainly are uses for newer more powerful hardware beyond just a home "math calculator" ^^

This, although my view is a bit more radical as I consider even the hardware advancement to be something creating more problems instead of solving the ones we already have. Not that I think hardware advancement is bad, but its taking a very wrong direction IMHO.
For me everything became more souless because the way society works: We revolve too much around money, not only because we need it to survive, but also because it gives people respect and admiration in the eyes of society.
So every creative work, be it for solving an important problem or just for creating something beautiful/ interesting, will only go forward if it can become a product. Then only after the shareholders are satisfied (meaning, never), this work can be used for whatever reason it was intended.
Too bad whoever had the original idea at this point will be already assigned to invent the next big thing to bring more profit to the company.

I would say the PC died (as we knew it) shortly after DirectX 7.0 and the GeForce 256 releases. Of course, someone else might say the moment the Pentium was released it was all downhill. And this is all relative; there's gobs of superlative stuff after 1999/2000 - but "heart" was missing (for me). When you got into computers is likely the primary factor when reviewing the PC postmortem.