VOGONS


First post, by smoke86

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This thing gives me headache for quite a while now.
I have an Intel Advanced/ZP motherboard and everything is working fine except that it won't keep BIOS settings no matter what.
I have replaced coin cell battery, resetted CMOS with jumper and nothing.
I even replaced BIOS flash chip (in this case: using hot air reworking station) giving it proper programming before soldering it to the board. It booted but won't keep BIOS settings.
When I tried flashing new chip with Intel flashing tool it ended with failure.
That makes me think that maybe a component responsible for supplying proper voltage to the board is faulty, but I don't know which one is this and how to diagnose it.
Maybe some other component like eg. capacitor failed and stops battery voltage to reach BIOS chip (I checked some but found nothing).
Maybe it's one of the ICs.
I'm also not educated in electronics, but I can do simple stuff like taking measurements and soldering.
My motherboard is this one: https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/intel- … vanced-zp-zappa

I'd be glad for some advice on that.

Reply 1 of 35, by Repo Man11

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Check where the posts for the battery holder come through the PCB and measure the voltage -there have been cases where the contacts were slightly corroded but it was almost impossible to see. It doesn't take much resistance when you're dealing with such low voltage. Try setting the board up outside of a case to make sure that nothing can go to ground that isn't supposed to.

"I'd rather be rich than stupid" - Jack Handey

Reply 3 of 35, by Repo Man11

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I guess either the CMOS memory chip is bad, or it isn't getting power for some reason. That's made more difficult because it isn't readily apparent where the CMOS chip on that board is. With boards such as the PCChips M507 and M520 the diagram makes it crystal clear which chip is the RTC, and it's socketed; so you know where it is, it can easily be checked for voltage, and it can be easily replaced. The only suggestion I have is that you figure out which chip is the RTC, then check the traces between the CMOS battery and that chip.

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Reply 4 of 35, by TrashPanda

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Repo Man11 wrote on 2022-10-05, 01:25:

I guess either the CMOS memory chip is bad, or it isn't getting power for some reason. That's made more difficult because it isn't readily apparent where the CMOS chip on that board is. With boards such as the PCChips M507 and M520 the diagram makes it crystal clear which chip is the RTC, and it's socketed; so you know where it is, it can easily be checked for voltage, and it can be easily replaced. The only suggestion I have is that you figure out which chip is the RTC, then check the traces between the CMOS battery and that chip.

At a guess its the one on the far left with the white sticker on it, if thats the BIOS then tracing issues with voltages might be a nightmare.

Reply 5 of 35, by Horun

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Are you all talking about the same board ? The Intel Zappa (FX82437 and 82371) based boards are different than the PcChips boards....
The CMOS is usually in the south bridge on most Pentium boards unless they have Dallas type time/cmos chip then it is used instead of the one in SB.
AFAIK the Intel Advanced does not have a external cmos chip and does not have a Dallas or other type. I have one (Advanced ATX) and cannot find it. Maybe someone else knows more....
Also: The BIOS chip on any PC motherboard does not have a cmos ram section, it is always in some other IC.

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 6 of 35, by TrashPanda

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Horun wrote on 2022-10-05, 02:57:
Are you all talking about the same board ? The Intel Zappa (FX82437 and 82371) based boards are different than the PcChips board […]
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Are you all talking about the same board ? The Intel Zappa (FX82437 and 82371) based boards are different than the PcChips boards....
The CMOS is usually in the south bridge on most Pentium boards unless they have Dallas type time/cmos chip then it is used instead of the one in SB.
AFAIK the Intel Advanced does not have a external cmos chip and does not have a Dallas or other type. I have one (Advanced ATX) and cannot find it. Maybe someone else knows more....
Also: The BIOS chip on any PC motherboard does not have a cmos ram section, it is always in some other IC.

I knew someone would come along eventually and explain why there is no obvious CMOS chip on the board OP posted, never ran across this myself what an odd setup.

I guess OP should be looking for an Sram chip on the board then.

Reply 7 of 35, by Repo Man11

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Horun wrote on 2022-10-05, 02:57:
Are you all talking about the same board ? The Intel Zappa (FX82437 and 82371) based boards are different than the PcChips board […]
Show full quote

Are you all talking about the same board ? The Intel Zappa (FX82437 and 82371) based boards are different than the PcChips boards....
The CMOS is usually in the south bridge on most Pentium boards unless they have Dallas type time/cmos chip then it is used instead of the one in SB.
AFAIK the Intel Advanced does not have a external cmos chip and does not have a Dallas or other type. I have one (Advanced ATX) and cannot find it. Maybe someone else knows more....
Also: The BIOS chip on any PC motherboard does not have a cmos ram section, it is always in some other IC.

According to the 430FX spec sheet I looked up earlier the southbridge doesn't have CMOS memory. Chart one says it uses the PIIX southbridge, chart 2 says no CMOS memory.
https://flylib.com/books/en/4.57.1.45/1/

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Reply 8 of 35, by Repo Man11

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I found a manual for the board. This excerpt makes me think maybe the CMOS chip is under, or integrated with, the coin battery holder. Especially since they break down what every component is except for the CMOS chip.

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Reply 9 of 35, by Repo Man11

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Disregard the above, the answer was a little further into the manual. Time to break out a magnifier and look at all of I/O chip's solder connections.

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Last edited by Repo Man11 on 2022-10-05, 05:02. Edited 1 time in total.

"I'd rather be rich than stupid" - Jack Handey

Reply 10 of 35, by Repo Man11

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Here's the 83706 datasheet to help you narrow down the search.

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Reply 11 of 35, by Repo Man11

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Looks like 7 is the magic number.

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Reply 13 of 35, by Horun

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Good work ! Yes I had a brain fart and called the peripheral controller the southbridge.

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 15 of 35, by Repo Man11

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I've never done a trace repair, but there are a few threads here that cover the topic. Here's one I found: Minor trace repair on a motherboard

"I'd rather be rich than stupid" - Jack Handey

Reply 16 of 35, by smoke86

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It is no like that. In this motherboard traces from the battery goes inside, between layers. I think direct bodge is the only way. My question is - is it a good idea? Maybe it shouldn't be 3v on pin 7, but less?

Reply 17 of 35, by TheMobRules

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According to the 83706 datasheet the operating VBAT voltage range is between 2.4V and Vcc - 0.5, so 3V should be totally fine on that pin.

However, the "Typical Battery Configuration" in page 88 suggests the use of a diode between the positive terminal of the battery and the VBAT pin. If that's how it was implemented in the motherboard then the actual VBAT voltage should be a bit less due to the diode drop, but more importantly battery + would not be connected directly to the chip. So I would look for that diode, if it's blown or not properly connected it could explain the absence of voltage at the VBAT pin.

Keep in mind that the actual implementation of the battery backup circuit may be different than the suggestion in the datasheet, so you could also have a resistor, another diode, and so on.

Reply 18 of 35, by smoke86

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OK, I managed to track down a diode, which works fine (shows voltage drop 0.53V, shows OL in reverse). Trace goes: battery -> resistor -> diode -> inside motherboad
That probably means that broken trace is between diode and 83706.
I wonder shall I try bridging a diode with pin7 of 83706.
Edit : as the trace to pin7 goes under the chip, I'll try to reflow that area with hot air first.

Reply 19 of 35, by smoke86

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Update: I managed to do a bodge wire mod as described above, but nothing changed.
I think it may be faulty 83706 controller and further repair attempts won't make any sense.