VOGONS


First post, by HappyLemons

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Before everyone jumps on me for this!
Just to be clear I'm trying to build two computers, a DOS focused PC AND a Windows 98SE focused computer.

For my DOS computer:
My goal is to play games mainly non-3d games. Although, I'd possibly like up to 1995~1996 (TekWar & Quake, although Quake may be a better fit for Windows).
From what I hear, a K6-2 / K6-2+ / K6-III is the best for this.

My questions:
Are there any considerations I should go into when building this PC?
Should I just buy something pre-built online, or do things from scratch?
What should I do for things like a Sound Card? I would like to play games like Manic Mansion and I hear you need a Tandy-1000 for that to avoid onboard speakers?
Should I be concerned about things like power supplies dying out, or components at the end of their life?

For my Windows 98SE PC:
I'd love to really push this super far and completely ignore DOS mode. My target is to play games up to 2002.
It's a 100% novelty, but Half Life 2 can run on Windows 98SE, and I'd love to try this out.

I'd be building a system with a Pentium 4 for this. I'd be using this as a guide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_TpsS3KNF8&t=615s

This would be my first time ever building a retro pc, so any tips, tricks or advise would be super helpful!

Reply 1 of 15, by gerry

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HappyLemons wrote on 2022-10-20, 07:20:
Before everyone jumps on me for this! Just to be clear I'm trying to build two computers, a DOS focused PC AND a Windows 98SE f […]
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Before everyone jumps on me for this!
Just to be clear I'm trying to build two computers, a DOS focused PC AND a Windows 98SE focused computer.

For my DOS computer:
My goal is to play games mainly non-3d games. Although, I'd possibly like up to 1995~1996 (TekWar & Quake, although Quake may be a better fit for Windows).
From what I hear, a K6-2 / K6-2+ / K6-III is the best for this.

My questions:
Are there any considerations I should go into when building this PC?
Should I just buy something pre-built online, or do things from scratch?
What should I do for things like a Sound Card? I would like to play games like Manic Mansion and I hear you need a Tandy-1000 for that to avoid onboard speakers?
Should I be concerned about things like power supplies dying out, or components at the end of their life?

For my Windows 98SE PC:
I'd love to really push this super far and completely ignore DOS mode. My target is to play games up to 2002.
It's a 100% novelty, but Half Life 2 can run on Windows 98SE, and I'd love to try this out.

I'd be building a system with a Pentium 4 for this. I'd be using this as a guide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_TpsS3KNF8&t=615s

This would be my first time ever building a retro pc, so any tips, tricks or advise would be super helpful!

for DOS anything pentium is pretty good and for playing older dos games and using older cards isa slots may be needed

yes old components will eventually fail, having spare components might be wise

for windows 98se if you want to completely ignore DOS it's tempting to also ignore windows 98 and go to windows XP, but there are little gaps between them and the guide you refer to is a good enough one

Reply 2 of 15, by chinny22

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For dos sounds like your more interested in the late SVGA titles then earlier CGA/EGA
In which case speed sensitive games are far less common, but you may have a game or 2 effected?
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/List_of_ … sensitive_games

General rule for late dos though is you want an ISA sound card and faster the CPU will give you some headroom for really late dos games

Prebuilt vs scratch, thats up to you! Prebuilt saves the hassle and can sometimes work out cheaper BUT maybe you want the fun of building the PC from the ground up.
Typically I'll get a Dell or other OEM which aren't as desirable so can be had at better prices and use that as a basis to build on, but have plenty of machines using generic parts as well, both have pro's/cons.

Sound card is a tricky one to answer as no 1 card is perfect. Persoanlly I'd find something for the right price and search/ask here about it's good and negative points but main things people focus on.
1) Do you intend to hook up an external midi device? if not you can ignore any mentions of MP-401 or hanging note bugs as this wont effect you.
2) OPL Chip. In oversimplifed terms this is whats used say in Doom if you select Sound Blaster for your music device or set anything as Adlib. (that chip tune sound) Some people only like the sound of a true OPL chip problem is Creative implemented their own CQM chip half way though the SB16's production which some people can't stand, but you be the judge.
blind test : OPL vs CQM
Note this wont effect games like Quake that use CD audio or other games that have digitized recording.

All this hardware is old, it's a gamble but so is life! I haven't had too much die on me over the years though. Power supplies are probably the exception but you can use modern ATX PSU's on old ATX systems and even get AT to ATX converters if you do end up with an AT system.

Win98 is much more forgiving. Really its the graphics card that limits you. AGP is a safe bet on on intel side of things this ended mainstream with thePentium 4 and S478 Some LGA775 motherboard do exist.
The GF4Ti or FX are safe bets for compatibility. You can go upto GF6 officially or even newer including PCIE cards with modified drivers but compatibility does drop.

Finally I wouldn't stress too much about the perfect build right away, Personally I'd start with the 98 box as parts are more common and get a feel for what you want.

Reply 3 of 15, by Shponglefan

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Initial thoughts

The DOS era of gaming covers a wide range from early 80s to late 90s. Rather than trying to build a "DOS" PC per se, I would think more in terms of respective eras of gaming you want to cover. You specifically mention Maniac Mansion (1987) and mid-90s (Quake, TekWar). Depending on which games you want to play, will dictate the type of build and video/sound options you will need.

Given the wide range of DOS gaming eras, I also wouldn't ignore a Windows 98 build as an option for DOS games. My own 'Ultimate' Win98 setup (Athlon 2000+, GeForce Ti 4200, Diamond MX300+MIDI wavetable), can run late 90s Win 9X games, but is also perfectly suited for early 90s DOS gaming like Doom.

Prebuilt versus scratch builds

Prebuilt systems are nice because you are getting something that is tested and works. I've bought several prebuilt retro systems for this reason. They are more expensive, but not having to deal with hardware troubleshooting can be a blessing. Plus, they are can always be modified based on your own goals.

Scratch builds can be fun but it can take longer to collect all the necessary parts and involve more troubleshooting and refurbishing. Though the latter is a good learning experience in keeping retro hardware working.

Sound Options and DOS games

Given the wide era of DOS gaming, sound options can get complicated. To simplify, I tend break down audio options by era:

  • early 80s - PC speaker
  • mid 80s - PC speaker / Tandy 3 channel sound
  • late 80s to early 90s - Adlib / Sound Blaster / Roland MT-32
  • early to mid 90s - Sound Blaster Pro (& compatibles) / Roland MT-32
  • mid 90s - Sound Blaster 16 (& compatibles) / Sound Blaster AWE32 / Gravis Ultrasound / General MIDI (Roland Sound Canvas, etc.)
  • late 90s -various PCI sound cards

This list is nowhere near exhaustive, since there are a *lot* of DOS sound cards and sounds options (MIDI modules, wavetables).

Do you have any specific goals for sound support? Are you looking for the best possible audio from the respective eras of DOS gaming? Are you looking for broad compatibility? Are you looking for a specific "sound" from that era (e.g. FM synthesis like OPL2/OPL3 versus MIDI devices like MT-32).

If you have some initial goals, that can help narrow down your choices.

Hardware reliability

When dealing with retro hardware, hardware failures comes with the territory. Learning basics electronic troubleshooting and soldering skills are invaluable when it comes to maintaining old hardware.

General thoughts

Retro PC-building is enjoyable and rewarding. Don't worry about getting everything "right" the first time. Part of the fun is the journey, exploring different hardware options and ultimately working towards systems that meet your personal goals.

Have fun with it! 😁

Pentium 4 Multi-OS Build
486 DX4-100 with 6 sound cards
486 DX-33 with 5 sound cards

Reply 4 of 15, by dr_st

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I kinda think it's a waste and might be a bit overwhelming to try to build two PCs for DOS and Win98 SE simultaneously, especially if you are very new to retro PC building and are starting from scratch.
I would start with a K6-II/II+/III/III+ based PC, which can cover the full range of DOS games, and early Windows games up to the year 2000 with reasonable performance.

If you find this insufficient, you can later build a P4-based PC for Windows games only, and run Win98SE (or even WinME, as you don't care about DOS mode).
A high-end P4 is also good for early XP era gaming.

https://cloakedthargoid.wordpress.com/ - Random content on hardware, software, games and toys

Reply 5 of 15, by gen_angry

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My 98SE and XP rig is:
- P4 3.0c
- Asus P4P800-VM
- 2GB DDR400
- Radeon x850 Pro
- SBLive 5.1
- 320GB WD Blue HD, partitioned 120gb to 98SE, rest to XP.

Plays nearly everything in 98SE (some very early on pre-DX5 titles have issues with radeon cards but can just use a GF4 in place if that's important for you) and handles XP easily up to 2008 or so.

For DOS, I went with:
- P200MMX (doesn't get runtime error 200)
- Asus P5-99VM (terrible for windows but pretty great for a matx DOS only board, maybe very early win95 where agp wasn't a thing yet. Can take up to a K6-3 too.)
- 64MB RAM
- S3 Trio64V2/DX + Monster3D (expensive, can skip if you don't care for dos glide)
- SB AWE64
- 16GB CF-IDE, 2GB for DOS, 8GB for Win95, rest empty for spare blocks.
- RTL8139B NIC

I wanted to aim for a later DOS rig. This shreds everything, the trio has great VESA compatibility, and setmul works pretty well to get it down to a 486-33'ish level if needed. Most of what I play aren't really speed sensitive though.

Reply 6 of 15, by guardianali

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If your games arent going to be speed sensitive, Id go with a medium/high P3 build and just make one machine.

You can find decent Mobos that support the P3 and still have a single ISA slot or two to throw in an ISA sound card. Add a pci sound card for Win98.
Throw in a Gf4 for Win98 and something like an S3 or Matrox for DOS non 3d gaming.
And your golden. You can run both Gfx and Sound cards in the machine same time and pick which one based is used based on the OS your using.

Reply 7 of 15, by kolderman

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My builds for the same:

DOS: k6-3+, s3 virge dx + voodoo1, music quest clone mpu card, isa sound card of my choice like awe32 or whatever, SD card for storage.

Late win98: pentium 4 Northwood 3.4, audigy2zs, geforce fx 5950U, 120gb hdd.

The hardest choice will be the isa sound card you use for dos. There is famously no perfect answer.

Reply 8 of 15, by HappyLemons

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Thanks everyone for the details on this. Versus building a dedicated DOS computer, is it reasonable (If I build a very powerful Win98se computer) to just run DosBox on it?

I know this might sound silly, so let me know if this is viable at all?

Reply 9 of 15, by leileilol

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Maybe if you're having DOSBox around to run CGA games and other timing picky games where a throttled P4 can't reach, that'd be fine. Sound cards are often a big factor on DOS game compatibility and PCI cards aren't perfect in that, so it's still practical to keep DOSbox around (where just running a game on Win98 with PCI sound doesn't work for some games)

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Reply 10 of 15, by Shponglefan

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HappyLemons wrote on 2022-11-03, 05:04:

Thanks everyone for the details on this. Versus building a dedicated DOS computer, is it reasonable (If I build a very powerful Win98se computer) to just run DosBox on it?

I know this might sound silly, so let me know if this is viable at all?

You can certainly run DOXBox on a Windows 98 machine. But keeping in mind, Windows 98 can run DOS software natively.

If you build a Windows 98 machine with DOS compatible hardware (e.g. DOS motherboard + sound card support), you should able to run most DOS software natively in Windows 98.

Pentium 4 Multi-OS Build
486 DX4-100 with 6 sound cards
486 DX-33 with 5 sound cards

Reply 11 of 15, by HappyLemons

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Shponglefan wrote on 2022-11-03, 12:54:
HappyLemons wrote on 2022-11-03, 05:04:

Thanks everyone for the details on this. Versus building a dedicated DOS computer, is it reasonable (If I build a very powerful Win98se computer) to just run DosBox on it?

I know this might sound silly, so let me know if this is viable at all?

You can certainly run DOXBox on a Windows 98 machine. But keeping in mind, Windows 98 can run DOS software natively.

If you build a Windows 98 machine with DOS compatible hardware (e.g. DOS motherboard + sound card support), you should able to run most DOS software natively in Windows 98.

I think my main concern is what you mentioned.

Since I'm building the computer with mainly Windows 98 in mind, I would prefer not to get caught up in DOS sound cards as I hear this can be quite the rabbit hole (I didn't actually know motherboard even mattered). Perhaps dosbox is the best avenue in this case?

Reply 12 of 15, by chinny22

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As your mainly into Win98 era I'd focus on that for now. Something like a P4/Win98 rig will run dosbox fine, and of course if going dosbox isn't much difference if you run it on your retro rig or daily driver as far as the game is concerned. So would choose hardware around your games rather then powerful enough for dosbox.

After a while you'll work out if you "need" to play dos on real hardware, and if so which games you play most and can either modify your existing Win98 PC or if your better off building a dedicated dos rig

Reply 13 of 15, by gen_angry

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^ thats the best advice anyone can give you, really. Focus on the first thing then add onto it or build something else once you have a better grasp of what else you want/can't do with your W98 machine. If you try to do too much at once - especially if you aren't sure what you're looking for, you can easily overwhelm yourself.

Reply 14 of 15, by HappyLemons

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Thanks for the insight everyone! I purchased a build that was very similar to what I would have made myself based on the feedback here. It's a P4 2.8GHZ with a SB 16 Live & 6200 pre-installed with Windows 98 SE. I'm very excited to start using it!!