Please no whataboutism now... One of those accounts doesn't exist anymore and whether those tweets had to be deletedand they ran into trouble for this... who knows and it isn't on topic.

Jo22 wrote on 2022-11-18, 01:43:

The developers/employees made the right decision, I think.
No one with dignity and love for freedom could have accepted this ultimatum with a clear conscience, I believe.
The conditions equal exploitation or a form of slavery, imho.

Uh, this isn't exactly a 19th-century coal mine. We're talking about thousands of employees who had been living in a sugar-coated bubble for years, and gotten used to such a degree of pampering that they believed it perfectly normal to dictate to their own management when, where and how long they're going to work, whether or not they're even required to come to the office, and whether they're entitled to free lunch on premise when barely 20% of them bother to show up. And when reality comes knocking, they believe they can get away with whining and shaming their employers in public and expect zero repercussions.

All this during a time of financial crisis, when big tech is shedding off bloat left and right just to stay afloat (see Meta/Facebook, Amazon, etc.). It's bonkers that >7K employees would be needed to maintain a product like Twitter, and still fail to make it grow to shareholder expectations or even to turn a profit for the great majority of the financial quarters in its history. Yeah yeah, moderation, "Trust and Safety" and so on... but when these bloated teams fail at their jobs to such a degree that the company gets sued for failing to remove child pornography - and has advertisers repeatedly running to the hills because of it - then something's obviously rotten beyond salvage.

One of my coworker recently had a couple of friends come over from the US for a visit. One of them works at Twitter (or maybe I should use the past tense now?), and she told some stories that frankly made the guy's jaw drop. Let's just say that the insane entitlement is 100% real, those "my day at $big_tech_firm" videos are 100% real, the nasty, crazy power-trips when it comes to 'moderation' (...) are 100% real, and so is the pampering, coddling company culture. I don't give much of a crap about Elon or Twitter, and I couldn't care less if it dropped dead tomorrow along with all other social media, but stuff like that is 100% non-sustainable - let alone in The Current Year.

it'll take a few of elon's fascist fridays for the fines/congress to start coming in. I'm only hanging on to keep an eye out for parachutes of who i'm following.

VileR wrote on 2022-11-19, 17:34:

Uh, this isn't exactly a 19th-century coal mine. We're talking about thousands of employees who had been living in a sugar-coat […]
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Jo22 wrote on 2022-11-18, 01:43:

The developers/employees made the right decision, I think.
No one with dignity and love for freedom could have accepted this ultimatum with a clear conscience, I believe.
The conditions equal exploitation or a form of slavery, imho.

Uh, this isn't exactly a 19th-century coal mine. We're talking about thousands of employees who had been living in a sugar-coated bubble for years, and gotten used to such a degree of pampering that they believed it perfectly normal to dictate to their own management when, where and how long they're going to work, whether or not they're even required to come to the office, and whether they're entitled to free lunch on premise when barely 20% of them bother to show up. And when reality comes knocking, they believe they can get away with whining and shaming their employers in public and expect zero repercussions.

All this during a time of financial crisis, when big tech is shedding off bloat left and right just to stay afloat (see Meta/Facebook, Amazon, etc.). It's bonkers that >7K employees would be needed to maintain a product like Twitter, and still fail to make it grow to shareholder expectations or even to turn a profit for the great majority of the financial quarters in its history. Yeah yeah, moderation, "Trust and Safety" and so on... but when these bloated teams fail at their jobs to such a degree that the company gets sued for failing to remove child pornography - and has advertisers repeatedly running to the hills because of it - then something's obviously rotten beyond salvage.

One of my coworker recently had a couple of friends come over from the US for a visit. One of them works at Twitter (or maybe I should use the past tense now?), and she told some stories that frankly made the guy's jaw drop. Let's just say that the insane entitlement is 100% real, those "my day at $big_tech_firm" videos are 100% real, the nasty, crazy power-trips when it comes to 'moderation' (...) are 100% real, and so is the pampering, coddling company culture. I don't give much of a crap about Elon or Twitter, and I couldn't care less if it dropped dead tomorrow along with all other social media, but stuff like that is 100% non-sustainable - let alone in The Current Year.

If people keep feeling sorry for the poor billionaires like that, then we will eventually come back to the coal mining conditions you describe.
The pandemic was the very moment where people REALLY needed support from the rich as it was the time where all the resources the working class amassed for them should be used to help everyone to stay home and make the virus instinct in no time, but then what happened? They just didn't do any effort, played the victim as always and turned their back to the rest of the world.
So, no need to worry about "whinny" employees making society not sustainable, because it was never sustainable to begin with.

Uh, this isn't exactly a 19th-century coal mine. We're talking about thousands of employees who had been living in a sugar-coated bubble for years

Exactly, this isn't a 19th century coal mine and everyone is free to take it or leave it. If Twitter sugar coated their employees that must have been had a reason. If it didn't... well, it wasn't the employees who established that.

And the conditions Musk is now trying to establish aren't really what people are looking for (rumors have it that only those that *can't* leave for whatever reasons (work visa, etc) are staying). And well, Twitter employees in Europe are having none of it ("I'm doing my job as in my contract, Musk telling all employees otherwise is basically the same as me writing him an email that I have every second day off!").

It's bonkers that >7K employees would be needed to maintain a product like Twitter, and still fail to make it grow to shareholder expectations or even to turn a profit for the great majority of the financial quarters in its history.

That's management issues not.

But anyways, that Twitter has probably gone away from a lean operation is not really disputed. The way Musk has gone about it is terrible, though, and does not look like a genius is doing it.

gaffa2002 wrote on 2022-11-19, 20:46:

If people keep feeling sorry for the poor billionaires like that, then we will eventually come back to the coal mining conditions you describe.
The pandemic was the very moment where people REALLY needed support from the rich as it was the time where all the resources the working class amassed for them should be used to help everyone to stay home and make the virus instinct in no time, but then what happened? They just didn't do any effort, played the victim as always and turned their back to the rest of the world.
So, no need to worry about "whinny" employees making society not sustainable, because it was never sustainable to begin with.

Don't worry, I'm far from feeling sorry for any of the billionaires involved. They're typically the cause of crises such as this, and even when they aren't, they sure do find enough ways to profit from them. It's a verified fact that the collapse of the global economy during the pandemic has resulted in an unprecedented increase of wealth and assets for the ultra-rich, while it's everybody else who got screwed; that's something everyone should be talking *more* about, if anything, but when wealth also dictates the conversation I'm not exactly surprised that this isn't happening.

And yes, the coal-mine thing is almost literally true in many cases. Take Amazon for instance - I sure as hell don't envy the average delivery guy or warehouse worker over there; there has been enough evidence documenting how they're treated, and "sweat shop" sounds almost too benign a description. (As a side note, it's mighty interesting that Bezos still enjoys a somewhat better public image than Musk does, at least outside of Musk's fanboy circle. Perhaps he's better at making the right noises... and it doesn't hurt that he owns an influential chunk of the loudspeakers that transmit those noises, too.)

I'm not *cheering* for anyone losing their jobs; Twitter isn't a monolith, and there are doubtlessly cooks and janitors among those who were laid off, not only privileged brats with fat severance packages and golden parachutes. But the great majority of the bloat was with the latter, and that particular class also seems to be the loudest in its tone-deaf, out-of-touch complaints about how taking away free lunches at the office is literally the same as starving them to death. Let's not pretend that they have anything whatsoever in common with the struggles of the working class.

Dominus wrote on 2022-11-19, 21:10:

Exactly, this isn't a 19th century coal mine and everyone is free to take it or leave it. If Twitter sugar coated their employees that must have been had a reason. If it didn't... well, it wasn't the employees who established that.

And the conditions Musk is now trying to establish aren't really what people are looking for (rumors have it that only those that *can't* leave for whatever reasons (work visa, etc) are staying). And well, Twitter employees in Europe are having none of it ("I'm doing my job as in my contract, Musk telling all employees otherwise is basically the same as me writing him an email that I have every second day off!").

If and when Twitter goes breaching contracts, that's something else (some people will say "well, the employees are free to sue then"... I won't, as it's certainly no picnic when you have to do that). But in the general case, yeah it's safe to assume that if Twitter used to provide above-and-beyond pampered conditions to their workforce, that was because it seemed like a good strategy at the time. Point is that times change, and it's unrealistic to maintain the exact same set of expectations when they do.

The fact that so many have elected to resign says they were in a position to afford such a decision; if they're right in expecting to find similar conditions elsewhere, they're going to be just fine. It's just extremely difficult to expect that to be true at this time, but very few of them are going to starve regardless.

But anyways, that Twitter has probably gone away from a lean operation is not really disputed. The way Musk has gone about it is terrible, though, and does not look like a genius is doing it.

Oh, for sure. I'm just not interested enough in the survival of Twitter as a company to feel very concerned about it 😉

So, we mostly agree... except on how tech workers should behave.
I have a different view... due to home office and high demand for technology during the pandemic, tech positions are now very sought after by companies (thus we are "spoiled"). Other professions on the other hand mostly suffered and companies didn't think twice before getting rid of people and abusing the ones that were able to stay employed. Basically the people who are in real trouble are also the ones that cannot demand anything as they cannot afford losing their jobs.
So IMHO, people with tech positions have the MORAL OBLIGATION to TORMENT and ABUSE their employer as much as they can, not just because its fun (it surely is), but because it helps, even if just a little, to raise the bar for other professions as well.

Okay, this is just an idea, but maybe it's also the times which have changed. Nowadays generations nolonger live for work, but work to live. That's why the socalled ghosting is a phenomenon these days (article).
Before the 1990s, workers/employees not seldomly had worked in a company they were loyal to for their entire life (go ask you parents/grand parents).
Until they realized, that after all these years, the company did care little about them. They were layed off and/or replaced by someone else without a warning. Without beeing respected.
They had given everything all the years, continued working when they were ill, were spending their holidays for the company etc. etc. In short, wasted their entire life.
That's why young people (or new employees) do focus more on their families and friends again. They are disillusioned, concentrate on what really matters. That's not bad per se, maybe.
In the times before industrialization, say mid/late-19th century, people were more interested in art, science and culture.
It's not as if the good old times were full of workers being as bussy as a bee. Sure, they had to work hard often, because of bad times, lack of social security etc.
Not necessarily because it was their meaning of life. They weren't workaholics as we know it.

Another cause might be the fact that nowaydays, employees are expected to be available all the time.
Even after work, when they're at home or with their family. There's no distinct separation anymore between free-time, rest and work.
Of course this leads to stress and burn-out and has consequences, too. I see this all the time.
It's no wonder that people demand for a friendly environment at work. A bossy boss is the least they want.
In some places, the boss/managers demand to be able to watch/monitor the employees via web cam all the time, even.
That's insane, pretentious and a form of megalomania, I think.

Edit: Another problem with companies is that they overestimate themselves and have an outdated worldview.
They have that attitude that they're center of the world, that they're very important, that they can get everything/everyone they want.
They dont ask themselves "Why should anyone possibly want to be with us ?" or "What do we offer them ? What makes us attractive ?"
Just have a look at what high qualifications they demand from their job candidates - for a miserable job/payment.
It's no wonder they won't get any new employees. People nolonger want to be exploitet. Especially not the intelligent or educated ones.

Edit: Another thing that people seem to forget is, that employees in IT are quite flexible by nature and that they usually want to work on meaningful projects.
They aren't necessarily dependent on other job offers in the IT field. If they really want or need to, some would rather change their kind of job and leave IT behind them.
With their level of education or experience, they can relearn and do other jobs in which they won't wear themselves out as much.

Edit: That being said, I can also understand that there are social problems in some places/countries that make it difficult for employers.
The strange concept of passive-aggressivity, for example (US?).
If you can't leave a message for your co-worker anymore that the copier is broken "don't use the copier, it's broken",
without being seen as passive-aggressive by others, then something is going very wrong.

Oh yeah, that's what we need on a retro computing forum: more shitty politics you ABSOLUTELY don't have anywhere else! /s
Maybe I want to see some red vs blue brainless bs inbred fighting too so it's not always about boring 486 boards and Windows 98 tinkering.
Seriously, this site managed to stay politics-free so far, why would you infect it with this crap? What's next, posts on the Ukranian war?

Every site, ridiculous.

This isn't politics, it's about IT jobs rather. In so far, it's at least partially related. 😉

..
The bit I wrote was more a philosophical take on a social problem.
Next would be censorship in forums. Just kidding.
..

I guess most point of views were already presented/discussed, anyway. So don't worry. 🙂

Edit: Just one more thing. It's also a generation problem/difference maybe. "Generation Y" means Generation: Why?
This generation asks for a purpose in life, in the job life.

When it's about social media and big tech it's always politics. Twitter was nothing but politics for the past 10ish years and Musk buying it was like dropping a nuke on an outpost with a certain political bias. Just imagine Musk buying Reddit and claiming that it has nothing to do with politics.

What are Musk's politics anyway?

He says he is neutral but right before the midterms he tweeted that everyone should vote republican 🤷‍♂️🤪

Mandrew wrote on 2022-11-20, 07:37:

Oh yeah, that's what we need on a retro computing forum: more shitty politics you ABSOLUTELY don't have anywhere else! /s Maybe […]
Show full quote

Oh yeah, that's what we need on a retro computing forum: more shitty politics you ABSOLUTELY don't have anywhere else! /s
Maybe I want to see some red vs blue brainless bs inbred fighting too so it's not always about boring 486 boards and Windows 98 tinkering.
Seriously, this site managed to stay politics-free so far, why would you infect it with this crap? What's next, posts on the Ukranian war?

Every site, ridiculous.

Well, it’s what people talk about.
And we have had other posts and don‘t forbid those right away. But we monitor them as they often turn into a shit show.
Thankfully this hasn‘t (yet?). The one post that could have run it down early was quickly deleted by the user. So here is to hoping that we can have a discussion or at least voicing our opinion without insulting each other

He's reinstated Trump's account now, so if there's method in his madness then it's lost on me.

badmojo wrote on 2022-11-20, 11:19:

He's reinstated Trump's account now, so if there's method in his madness then it's lost on me.

It was the result of a voting. Whether it's Musk's actual goal or not, he managed to show the world that 51.8% of Twitter users don't hate Trump, but they have been silent all the time, perhaps to protect themselves from cancel culture and the likes. If Musk's political goal is showing to public that there is a silent majority on Twitter whom are not anti-Trump, then it is achieved. After all, Musk seems to be quite disillusioned with the Left, that his political view can be summed by the following cartoon.

Musk's political view. From what I heard it's being sold as NFT, crazy as it seems.

(In any case, Musk doesn't seem to be the only one disillusioned with the Lefts today.)

However, whether it is a sound business decision is entirely another thing, especially since large corporations --which are Twitter's potential advertisers and sources of income-- seem to be fiercely left-leaning these days. An example is Disney, another is P&G with its Gillette commercial.

But then again, Musk's net worth is about 190 billion. If Twitter went bankrupt and Musk's net worth is reduced to ten percent because of that, then it is still 19 billion. Smaller than that of Zuckerberg, but still more than enough for him to live comfortably. And considering how toxic pre-Musk Twitter was, the death of Twitter could be a good thing.

Yeah, this is a toy to him. Other rich guys buy racehorses or boats or airplanes. Musk bought Twitter.

It wasn‘t 51.8% of Twitter users only of those that knew about the short lived poll and voted. How many of the 420 million users voted? 14 Million?
So that‘s ~ 1/30 who voted and a mere 1/60 of Twitter users who want Trump on the platform…

What's interesting is that supposedly a content moderation council was going to be setup to review those banned accounts and Musk stated he had issues with the fake accounts on Twitter when he was acquiring it. Now he relies on a poll which proves that he really didn't. I've long since given up on people holding to what they state but it's disappointing that I haven't seen any of that called out except for that article above but not surprising in the least. This was just a way to appear to give "power to the people" and keep interest in Twitter.

The other thing he keeps on bringing up is freedom of speech, Twitter isn't owned by the government so it has nothing to do with it . Use a different phrase. He won't because you won't get a rise out if people so that phrase will continue to be used and the ignorant will eat it up.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses

I've been on the Internets for 32 years and a mod for 22. People are shit on the internet
Content requires moderation, without it the chaos drowns out anything productive.