gerry wrote on 2023-03-07, 15:06:

i think this, the litigation and the 'personal data' thing are the biggest drivers then, alongside of "we have a process that mu […]
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chinny22 wrote on 2023-03-07, 12:11:

I get with new law and regulations it's harder for businesses to give away stuff, wanting some certificate to say it was disposed of in a secure and environmental way. I suspect that certificate isn't worth the paper its printed on but hey as far as the business is concerned they have done the correct thing!

i think this, the litigation and the 'personal data' thing are the biggest drivers then, alongside of "we have a process that must be followed because we have a process"

the result is vast amounts of useable computers thrown away, vast amount of working toasters/kettles/microwaves/food processors/radios and many more working electronics are also thrown away

think about what an average family gets through, if you're older then think through all the goods you had as a family from youth until now, very few of them became that much more advanced year on year - only early on. Even a 10 year old PC is fine for online, definitely wouldn't have been the case in the year 2000

most of my PC collection are either giveaways at a personal level, bought from charity or simply kept from new by myself!

off topic but the same will happen to automobiles in good working order over the next decade or so, just because they have gas engines

They can take my 2005 Mercury GM V8 when the pry it from my cold, dead hands. The last of the true American 4-door, body on frame, V8 sedan. No fancy computer bullshit, not even traction control. Its the last of the most pure form of automobile, IMO.

Electric cars as a concept, I'm all on board for. What I'm not down for is cars with heavy internet integration, subscriptions for heated seats, lockouts to prevent self repair or unauthorized repair shops from working on them, tons of proprietary bullshit, etc.

The situation in my place (India) is even worse. Despite being a developing nation, there is no value or market for older pc parts. Anything lower than a 945 board is nearly impossible to get. Sites like olx or quikr (local versions of craigslist) hardly have such listings. Also there are many listings for old pc buyers (only buying) who seem to hoard all the old vintage parts but in turn refuse to sell them despite offering good prices. Probably they sell it to the recyclers who in turn also refuse to sell.
There are very few retro parts sellers far away from my place (around 1600 kms), but they mostly have worthless boards/parts but charge ebay prices or even worse . The final nail in the coffin is Ebay. However when the pc boards/cards arrive, expect a 80-100% duty for sure on top of the premium prices paid.

Have you tried recruiting the networks of aunties into this noble cause, instead of all that scheming they usually get up to? ... might take some light bribery, you'll know better what tempts them.

BitWrangler wrote on 2023-03-08, 04:10:

Have you tried recruiting the networks of aunties into this noble cause, instead of all that scheming they usually get up to? ... might take some light bribery, you'll know better what tempts them.

It seems odd to outsiders but the way they use Aunty, Uncle, Brother, Sister for everyone even if they are not related is really humanizing making everyone feel like they are family.

BitWrangler wrote on 2023-03-08, 04:10:

Have you tried recruiting the networks of aunties into this noble cause, instead of all that scheming they usually get up to? ... might take some light bribery, you'll know better what tempts them.

Lol 😀. Problem is a large percentage of the populace is pc illiterate (whether auties, uncles or whatnots). Especially with regard to old pc tech. Ask the OP for the specs who posts a listing for a fairly old PC on a seller site. He/she would struggle to even explain whether it has a processor inside.

I think we peaked here about 15 years ago with maybe a third of the general populace having "some clue" but it's been on the decline since the iphone. There was definite attachment to the notion that the P4 was the best computer there ever was, is, or will be, such that even in the last year there's been computer idiots trying to sell them at ridiculous prices (Not realising they are so out of date rather than trying to front run retro pricing)

gerry wrote on 2023-03-07, 15:06:

the result is vast amounts of useable computers thrown away, vast amount of working toasters/kettles/microwaves/food processors/radios and many more working electronics are also thrown away

The more I think about it, the more upset I get; things have gotten totally out of hand. The more I read this thread, the more bewildered and ashamed I am of our throwaway society. It is sad, wasteful, and selfish beyond belief and reason how wasteful we are. Those components could be used instead of destroyed.

The problem is, nobody cares. So, into the landfill it goes because that's the easiest way, the path of absolute least resistance, the "easy" thing is to throw away and forget. And have no conscience about it whatsoever.

Some apologists argue that the greedy Ebayers who "save" components are doing the world a favor by keeping them from the recycle dump / landfill. That's disingenuous at best. They're only doing themselves (entitled and selfish as they are) any favors.

zyzzle wrote on 2023-03-08, 11:32:

The more I think about it, the more upset I get; things have gotten totally out of hand. The more I read this thread, the more b […]
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gerry wrote on 2023-03-07, 15:06:

the result is vast amounts of useable computers thrown away, vast amount of working toasters/kettles/microwaves/food processors/radios and many more working electronics are also thrown away

The more I think about it, the more upset I get; things have gotten totally out of hand. The more I read this thread, the more bewildered and ashamed I am of our throwaway society. It is sad, wasteful, and selfish beyond belief and reason how wasteful we are. Those components could be used instead of destroyed.

The problem is, nobody cares. So, into the landfill it goes because that's the easiest way, the path of absolute least resistance, the "easy" thing is to throw away and forget. And have no conscience about it whatsoever.

Some apologists argue that the greedy Ebayers who "save" components are doing the world a favor by keeping them from the recycle dump / landfill. That's disingenuous at best. They're only doing themselves (entitled and selfish as they are) any favors.

Yes and no.
Mid 90's when phones and computers became mainstream I'd say 95% probably ended up in landfill. Although due to cost not as much was been produced either.
Today we probably produce the same amount of ewaste a month that 20 years ago would have taken 6-12 months. So I am glad at least some of it is been disposed of properly rather then ending up in landfill.

I fully agree with the throw away society though. even basics like like clothes, kitchenware, etc can be had cheaper from online store then at a 2nd hand charity/good will shop. Even the government is in on the act with car trade in schemes to help the "environment" ok maybe a little, but lets be honest it helped the economy a lot more!

chinny22 wrote on 2023-03-08, 12:04:

Even the government is in on the act with car trade in schemes to help the "environment" ok maybe a little, but lets be honest it helped the economy a lot more!

Economics drives environmental policy far more than environmentalism. Recycling is sold as a panacea when it's the least effective of the trio (from most to least effective): Reduce > Reuse > Recycle. There's a lot of vested interest in continual production and consumption.

Hardware is never obsolete, only the Windows Licence Key stuck to the side 😜

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-08, 03:06:

They can take my 2005 Mercury GM V8 when the pry it from my cold, dead hands. The last of the true American 4-door, body on frame, V8 sedan. No fancy computer bullshit, not even traction control. Its the last of the most pure form of automobile, IMO.

that v8 will still be around in another 15 years if taken care of and it would seem a real pity to let it go while it still runs fine

chinny22 wrote on 2023-03-08, 12:04:

even basics like like clothes, kitchenware, etc can be had cheaper from online store then at a 2nd hand charity/good will shop.

this is one the things that make me sigh, used/charity stores can see new prices and when things are donated what is their pricing even for? just sell well below new prices, well below, and it will move thus gaining $ for the cause - yet i see things overpriced at such places. sometimes if something is electronic or 'a computer' then it's not marked down in price enough and so it just hangs around the store for ages probably ending up trashed or maybe sold eventually at the reduced prices they should be from the outset

in any case, i have no simple answers. I doubt it can regulated away, how would we do that without layering everything in a smothering blanket of bureaucracy leading to cynical letter-of-regulation following products of higher prices, more suited to mega companies that can cope with the bureaucracy assuring less and less innovation, choice and more and more monopolism - although it is one way to achieve "reduce" by grinding down the economy in general!

not sure about achieving "reuse" through variations on the 'circular economy' either, depends on whether or not we own what we buy or are just renting things (" you will own nothing and be ... um .. perpetually dependent on lenders") though some ways of doing it might work. You can just buy really good quality when possible and make it last as long as possible. Hey us lot here buy PC hardware teetering on the edge of oblivion and yet make it last a bit longer 😀

Some other few reasons would be space and tech obsolescence and explained in posts above. Many people nowadays live in apartments especially in bigger cities where space is a major constraint. This forces many to part with their possessions after a while.

Apart from PCs, there are many things which face the wrath of obsolescence. Cars have a limited road life due to changes in environmental regulations and increased Repairs. Most importantly space.

During the 90s, VCRs were the thing. Then slowly CDs killed them which in turned was killed by DVDs. Now usb drives are the norm which may be replaced by something else.

In addition due to the hoarders who have already amassed a good collection of retro pc parts and still amassing, the available ones for sale are destined to be sparse and finally extinct.

So it seems like nothing escapes the vicious cycle called "Change" and is indeed a hard pill to swallow.

All hoarders eventually die, and their hoards get sold.

stealthjoe wrote on 2023-03-09, 02:03:

Apart from PCs, there are many things which face the wrath of obsolescence. Cars have a limited road life due to changes in environmental regulations and increased Repairs. Most importantly space.

This a point, although I don't know how truly valid it is.

How much of that obsolescence is "planned obsolescence" fueled either by greed, graft, or both? Lots, in fact, a majority of it.

We see "progress" just for the mere writing of the word. Do we really need 8k TVs or phones with 16 processors, with more power in them than your average supercomputer in the '90s? No, certainly not.

Yet we're convinced by " laissez faire" that we do need this 'healthy' tech progression; it's 'evil' to think otherwise. And, so much is wasted. "Just because we can, doesn't mean we should" is a good maxim, that has been lost to the constant drummer march of bigger, better, more bloated.

Very few realize that Reuse and Renew are more important that Recycle. Cheap Chinese proliferration of tech goods does not help the situation. It has buried it deep into the ground.

At this point, there is no solution, except to sit back and weep. And hope Karma is a bitch to some of these people and companies who have done so much environmental harm to the planet.

Unknown_K wrote on 2023-03-09, 02:07:

All hoarders eventually die, and their hoards get sold.

Agree. As long as it gets into the right hands!

stealthjoe wrote on 2023-03-09, 02:03:

During the 90s, VCRs were the thing. Then slowly CDs killed them which in turned was killed by DVDs. Now usb drives are the norm which may be replaced by something else.

this is a good example of where changes in tech were significant enough to 'justify' obsolescence, or at least provided a step change where in the old fell away. Yet old VCRs still work and can still record and play. There are people who collect and even restore old 'home media' equipment like this, not just the vintage radio folk - there are video recorder and crt and other fields to collect now 😀

bluray and hdd recorders btw was the last gasp in this field, it rapidly moved on to what is effectively online media rental. ever less space needed for your ever smaller belongings.... noticed that?

zyzzle wrote on 2023-03-09, 02:38:

At this point, there is no solution, except to sit back and weep. And hope Karma is a bitch to some of these people and companies who have done so much environmental harm to the planet.

the consequences of this karma will affect the careful and thoughtful conserver of things just as much as the average joe who fully participated in throwaway consumerism

those who worked in factories where these things were made across the world may even suffer more while those who were able to become wealthy (not high income i mean wealth) and made the decisions may be able to shield themselves from karma to a greater extent than others

Unknown_K wrote on 2023-03-09, 02:07:

All hoarders eventually die, and their hoards get sold.

"percentage hoarder's old PCs and components that are saved?" - if its less than 100% then this too is a dwindling pool. I can imagine house clearance to landfill destroying much loved (and would be valuable) collections without a thought again and again

i'd guess ebay sellers would want these collections though!

BitWrangler wrote on 2023-03-08, 04:37:

There was definite attachment to the notion that the P4 was the best computer there ever was, is, or will be, such that even in the last year there's been computer idiots trying to sell them at ridiculous prices (Not realising they are so out of date rather than trying to front run retro pricing)

Finding a P4 locally would be like finding a white cat in a snowstorm. It gets on the nerves when you enquire about availability of P4 or older boards from some old computer sellers who in turn mock and ridicule with statements such as "Thats a very old board. Impossible to get. They are thrown to the garbage" or even worse "Why do you a need a P4 board...bla bla bla". Such is the mentality of the people over here! Imagine a whole bunch of similar jokers across a nation!!

Last year i was helping to clean the local seminary for my diocese, i opened a door and found a room literally (and i truly mean it) wall to wall packed with P4 of all kinds, complete builds, i think even the monitors were in there.
I went into a "I gotta save them" mentality but at the end i left them there, they would be good for restoration and opening a free retro museum like LAN party lounge, possibly annexed to an oratory, somebody (let's be honest i can be the only one where i live) could teach the older possibly interested kids how to set up things etc. they could offer beverages for a low price and...

Damn i want to do it but i know what bureaucratic pain it would be and also the puzzling of people listening to my proposal and that's why shit gets thrown out and lost sometimes.

stealthjoe wrote on 2023-03-09, 10:12:

BitWrangler wrote on 2023-03-08, 04:37:

There was definite attachment to the notion that the P4 was the best computer there ever was, is, or will be, such that even in the last year there's been computer idiots trying to sell them at ridiculous prices (Not realising they are so out of date rather than trying to front run retro pricing)

Finding a P4 locally would be like finding a white cat in a snowstorm. It gets on the nerves when you enquire about availability of P4 or older boards from some old computer sellers who in turn mock and ridicule with statements such as "Thats a very old board. Impossible to get. They are thrown to the garbage" or even worse "Why do you a need a P4 board...bla bla bla". Such is the mentality of the people over here! Imagine a whole bunch of similar jokers across a nation!!

That's probably the attitude of 90% of independent computer stores here too, no retro sensitivity. But yes, I don't really have a good sense of when the mass adoption floodgates opened in India. Worldwide, the sales of Windows 9x compared to population is around 1 copy per hundreds, so less than 1% of the world had a machine of that age in the first place, and those 486-PIII are massively more common than 8088-386, because the adoption curve was really shallow until 1995 when it really began to zoom upwards.

I have an idea for you though, advertise data transfer services, maybe you'll get a lot of not very old computers, and you can charge a reasonable fee, but then when old ones turn up, offer to do it for the computer as payment.

I know, it's not an solution to this problem, but..
If everything fails, there's still an FPGA implementation of a 80486 core.
It could be expanded to Pentium level, perhaps.
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/ao486_MiSTer

That way, there will still be "real" hardware to tinker with in the future.
For those who still care about 80s/90s tech.

Likewise, the MSX computer scene has similar solutions.

While I'm not a big FPGA fan myself, I realize that it offers the option to continue use real hardware components.
Disk drives, sound cards, peripherals..

It's an acceptable solution until we can print vintage CPUs on glass/plastic.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-03-09, 16:39:

I know, it's not an solution to this problem, but.. If everything fails, there's still an FPGA implementation of a 80486 core. […]
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I know, it's not an solution to this problem, but..
If everything fails, there's still an FPGA implementation of a 80486 core.
It could be expanded to Pentium level, perhaps.
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/ao486_MiSTer

That way, there will still be "real" hardware to tinker with in the future.
For those who still care about 80s/90s tech.

Likewise, the MSX computer scene has similar solutions.

While I'm not a big FPGA fan myself, I realize that it offers the option to continue use real hardware components.
Disk drives, sound cards, peripherals..

It's an acceptable solution until we can print vintage CPUs on glass/plastic.

I think that will be the future of retro computing, too. That's why emulators are so important: They keep the logic, the "recipe" for building outdated stuff that eventually will get destroyed, even more important for technology that did not became the standard.

I know a lot of people here will hate me for this but if you think about it, it does makes sense to get rid of old PCs because in practice modern ones can do the same things many times faster while taking a fraction of space and power consumption. The reason for keeping such old hardware is mostly for playing around with them (while they work) and appreciate its historical value.

Of course the above applies only if there is any actual benefit for adopting the new technology, something very different than what the computer industry is doing nowadays... basically you have to keep paying them just to retain the functionality you already had (and throw away useful hardware), that's called extortion, not an upgrade.