A single machine that runs 100% of DOS games natively is a myth.. even if you take that to the literal meaning of "games running on MSDOS" meaning you exclude booters and Windows games.. Here.. Take, for example, Terminator 2029 is a DOS game that won't run on anything past a 486, and there are hundreds of DOS games that don't run on 486s.. so.. there you go..

100% is probably possible on a single machine with emulation. Otherwise, I'd say you need 3 machines at least to run all DOS games (me thinks a turbo XT, 486 with turbo button, and a Pentium 2).

But yeah, a Pentium 2 or 3 Win98 machine can run a very large set of DOS games with the help of additional utilities and software (esp. slow down). Socket 745 is too much even for Win98 IMO, let alone DOS.

wbahnassi wrote on 2023-03-22, 19:29:

100% is probably possible on a single machine with emulation. Otherwise, I'd say you need 3 machines at least to run all DOS games (me thinks a turbo XT, 486 with turbo button, and a Pentium 2).

Three machines would generally do it, though it might be possible with only two machines withspecialized setups:

• Turbo XT + 286 Accelerator board (XT / Turbo XT / 286)
• Pentium 233 MMX with SETMUL for throttling (386 / 486 / Pentium / Pentium MMX)

Though this does leave out Windows 98 gaming which would need something better than a Pentium MMX.

If it's the PhilsComputerLab video that he recently posted, I don't think he claimed it was compatible for all DOS games. In fact, I believe he showed a glaring hole in Commander Keen as an example. I think the point of his video was to show people how to build a retro PC for cheap by not chasing the "period correct" 1990s parts and getting most of the way there.

I think it's great that he's trying to make vintage PC gaming more accessible to new entrants in his video. There's a lot of ink spilt on Vogons by people trying to fill in absolutely every edge case. For most people, those edge cases don't apply. But they might get caught up in the discussion about building the "perfect" PC for years xxxx.

My edge case would be running Optic Nerve, an early 486/SB demo. It's notoriously hard to do, AFAIK it runs on Dosbox but I tried to run it on literal dozens of retro builds and succeeded only once - and I couldn't even repeat this success anymore, not even with the same build/config...

BTW, yes, I think the same about that video and its purpose. And Commander Keen could have been worse, it shows screen sized areas of memory junk on Tsengs, for example 😁 It's just horribly jerky on ATI anything(?).

If you don't have ISA, only PCI, the answer is: ESS SOLO-1. It's 99,9% SB PRO compatible in newer machines.
Of course you need chipset that can do PCI-DMA so all VIA chipsets (up to Athlon64 era). From Intel it's up to Pentium3.

One of my retrorig is Athlon 64 X2, there's Radeon 3850 AGP for Windows XP games and Voodoo3 PCI for DOS and Windows98SE.

It can do both Crysis and DOS games no problem. With setmul.exe you can change multiplier on the fly and disable L1 cache.

Thank you for all the advice! I have been involved in the PC era since a very early stage (286-16MHZ) and I am no longer aware of how far the incompatibility between the old machines has progressed.
So three systems are too much, I would rather have the sweet spot where I can get the most out of playing a wide range of DOS and early Windows games.

And yes, I watched Phil's latest video, would that be a good sweet spot?
Can i use SETMUL with this system?!

Is the ESS SOLO-1 General MIDI capable?

I have found a cheap Asus K8V X with a 754 socket.

DocBo wrote on 2023-03-23, 13:14:

I would rather have the sweet spot where I can get the most out of playing a wide range of DOS and early Windows games.

Super Socket 7 with AMD K6-2/2+/3/3+ probably.

DocBo wrote on 2023-03-23, 13:14:

So three systems are too much, I would rather have the sweet spot where I can get the most out of playing a wide range of DOS and early Windows games.

Echoing dr_st's suggestion, a Super Socket 7 K6-2/K6-3 build would cover the most ground.

You could throttle it with SETMUL and cache disabling to cover a range of speeds back to ~386 era.

Is the ESS SOLO-1 General MIDI capable?

If you find one with a wavetable header connector, you can add a General MIDI compatible wavetable card (like an X2GS).

I have really not understood the idea of building a computer aimed at DOS from much newer hardware and getting non-optimal results and bunch of hurdles and potential problems with compatibility. Reason: there is DOSBox. Before I started to get into vintage computing, I had a DOSBox-ECE installed with Launchbox and it was an awesome combo (and still is). Easy to adjust speed, far less pixel scaling problems on modern displays, glide, MT-32, GM, GUS you name it emulation. It is so good that if you don’t specifically want to fiddle with DOS era hardware, DOSBox is IMO the best option to play DOS games. And 2003-2005 systems aren’t DOS era hardware.

My suggestion would be that for DOS, if you already haven’t, fiddle with DOSBox and test it out and play old games like there is no tomorrow. If you like it, there is nothing wrong with continuing using it and you can focus on building a system aimed at Win98 games. Or if you really really like it, then focus on a computer that can play DOS era really well.

286! When most people say dos era they really mean mid 90's late 386/early 486 as a starting point, asking a single PC to go that far back all the way to end of the 9x era will never end well.

A Super Socket 7 is probably your best chance, but will struggle with both the really early dos games and the last of 9x era gaming Good chance though that these later games will run ok on XP (eg Quake 3) but that still means at least 2 PC's

If your wanting to also cover Windows 98, something along the lines of a P3 600 or faster with ISA slot will let you play Quake 3 but GTA3 is about where you would be wanting another system to take over.
Get say a GeForce 4 as it has good support for both dos and windows and an ISA sound card and thats dos games sorted excluding speed sensitive games, which aren't many but do become more common the further back you go, and the P3 has no where the flexibility of downclocking that a K6 would but for those games I'd cave in and just use dosbox if limited to just 1 computer.

dr_st wrote on 2023-03-23, 13:23:

DocBo wrote on 2023-03-23, 13:14:

I would rather have the sweet spot where I can get the most out of playing a wide range of DOS and early Windows games.

Super Socket 7 with AMD K6-2/2+/3/3+ probably.

Ditto, but this combination would not be easy to find, and expensive if you find a working rig.

@DocBo: Alternatively, if you play more DOS games than Win9x games, go for Pentium-MMX on 430TX Socket 7 MB; otherwise, go for any Socket 370 MB with an ISA slot and pair it with Coppermine P3 (Tualatin would be just as rare as K6-III+).

Or go Socket 370/VIA C3. Ezra T or Nehemiah
Most flexible option really.

dormcat wrote on 2023-03-23, 20:09:

otherwise, go for any Socket 370 MB with an ISA slot and pair it with Coppermine P3 (Tualatin would be just as rare as K6-III+).

That will probably be my choice as well, if I ever have to replace my K6-2+ system, as I do play later DOS games way more than early ones, and I enjoy occasional Windows games as well.

Now I'm at a point where I have to decide whether to go more towards DOS or Windows.
So to summarize briefly, either a Socket 754 system for a wider range between dos and windows, or a Socket 370 if it's mostly going towards DOS.
Assuming I can get affordable options.

What i find:
ASUS CUSL2-C with CPU Intel III 866 MHZ and 320MB RAM for 90€
Asus P5A + AMD K6 400 MHZ for 50€
Asus K8V X + AMD Athlon 64 3000 + 3GB DDR-RAM for 43€

CharlieFoxtrot wrote on 2023-03-23, 16:05:

I have really not understood the idea of building a computer aimed at DOS from much newer hardware and getting non-optimal results and bunch of hurdles and potential problems with compatibility. Reason: there is DOSBox. Before I started to get into vintage computing, I had a DOSBox-ECE installed with Launchbox and it was an awesome combo (and still is). Easy to adjust speed, far less pixel scaling problems on modern displays, glide, MT-32, GM, GUS you name it emulation. It is so good that if you don’t specifically want to fiddle with DOS era hardware, DOSBox is IMO the best option to play DOS games. And 2003-2005 systems aren’t DOS era hardware.

My suggestion would be that for DOS, if you already haven’t, fiddle with DOSBox and test it out and play old games like there is no tomorrow. If you like it, there is nothing wrong with continuing using it and you can focus on building a system aimed at Win98 games. Or if you really really like it, then focus on a computer that can play DOS era really well.

Yes, DOSBox is great and I use it for most games in my GOG library. However, emulation is not the same gaming experience as on original hardware, but you're right, DOSBox offers more convenience options.

DocBo wrote on 2023-03-24, 16:39:

Asus K8V X + AMD Athlon 64 3000 + 3GB DDR-RAM for 43€

This build would be much more suitable for a Win98/XP hybrid instead of DOS gaming: lacks ISA slot + too much RAM. After all, K8V-X was designed in 2004 when WinXP and DirectX were already mainstream. Most DOS games require I/O, IRQ, and DMA set before starting the game; in Win98/XP this is handled by Windows Devices emulating parameters in DOS mode. On the other hand it can handle any Win9x game with ease and still capable of dealing with most WinXP games up to mid-2000s.

I have a similar build (Asus K8V-MX + AMD Sempron 3100+ + 512MB DDR RAM + ATI Radeon 9600 Pro + 60GB HDD) dedicated for late Win9x gaming i.e. DirectX 7 and 3D accelerated but incompatible with XP.

IMHO pick P5A + K6-400 if you have more DOS games (as it would start to struggle with later Win9x games); pick CUSL2-C + P3-866 if you have more late-Win9x games (don't forget a decent AGP card like GF4 Ti or Radeon R300) but 90€ is a bit more than what I'm willing to pay (I could buy an Ivy Bridge build for ultimate WinXP experience with that price).

DocBo wrote on 2023-03-24, 16:39:

ASUS CUSL2-C with CPU Intel III 866 MHZ and 320MB RAM for 90€

That's a crazy price given that 815EP struggles with demanding 98 stuff and will give you DMA headache with DOS stuff.

DocBo wrote on 2023-03-24, 16:39:

Asus P5A + AMD K6 400 MHZ for 50€

It's a popular super7 choice with decent DOS compatibility/slowdown (setmul) and it's also convenient to have it in ATX variant but pay attention to what exactly you're buying (hw rev.). If you want to game on max settings, Quake3 is the best you can squeeze out of this combo, newer graphic cards will choke even with a fast K6.

DocBo wrote on 2023-03-24, 16:39:

Asus K8V X + AMD Athlon 64 3000 + 3GB DDR-RAM for 43€

It's a fine choice for maxing out win98, though check out this post for AGP GART problems (see post by user bloodem and relevant thread). In short, you need a right hw rev. / bios ver. combination.

As a 'owner' of such a combo (Sempron3100+Gigabyte K8VT800M), i can tell you that if you want to go for 'inexpensive' is the best path.
The good: cheap, still easy to find, works with setmul 4-9(800-1800mhz), l1 cache can be disabled, ddr speed can be lowered, HT speed can be lowered, works with ESS Solo 1(Tested/MB must have a VIA chipset !), works with Sbemu. Has a 12v eps cpu connector so it works with new PSUs. The system is 'rock solid' .
The bad: not as versatile as viaC3/k62/3 regarding speed sensitive older titles but makes up for that in newer more demanding ones. Lacks a ISA slot, so for audio you are stuck with a PCI sound card, The AGP slot is only 8x/4x compatible. Capacitors also, because is still a 'OLD' motherboard.
Overall, with a XT and 386/486dx33 (for really old games) and a kit like this for newer dos games and win 98 you should be ok.

Athlon 64 is ideal for early Windows XP games and few games that specifically require Windows 98 to run properly. Due to AGP Gart problems the primary OS should be Windows XP. It serves basically the same purpose as Athlon XP. If you want a dual boot system without AGP Gart problems then go for Athlon XP.

If you want dual boot Windows 98/DOS then go for PIII or Athlon with an ISA slot. Dosbox-x can handle few speed sensitive games that will fail to run properly.

No AGP Gart problems (via chipset) and there a plenty of socket a boards with the same issue (agp gart issues). You can research your board before buying it. Also Sempron 3100+ does not support 64bit/it's not a 64 bit cpu.
Also another cool thing about the combo that i forgot: USB legacy mouse support in dos from the bios, no special driver required (only the standard mouse driver).