twiz11 wrote on 2023-04-13, 00:55:

I turned 30 years old last year and looking forward to my birthday but I didn't do much this decade for my 20s and now I am starting into looking back. I used to collect maybe hoard everything I found, but now I feel dead inside, losing that happy feeling as I saw the rise of the internet at such an early age to potentially its downfall in my lifetime. Maybe I could see a life where I wasn't exposed to the power of information at my fingertips. It is such a burden to preserve and archive everything that I ended up doing the opposite and destroying everything to kingdom come. Pulping books, cutting CDs. Of course, the hardest lesson is you own nothing these days, and frankly, why would you want to own anything these days? Leave it to someone else to take care of it. most of the stuff I have should be in a museum because when I die it will be thrown out or given away anyway. Now I find myself using old media as coasters and firewood fuel. To deny others of my nostalgiac pain is necessary to remain ignorant and happy.

Wow, you seem awfully nihilistic for only 30. I'm over 70 years old, and have amassed a lifetime of hardware over more than 50 years of collecting, living, and using. Note: not hoarding; I've actually used everything I've acquired. Most of it has a good patina of use. But, much of it is going to just be so much rubbish when I die. So, I'm not acquiring any new retro stuff, especially not at the insane, greedy prices of today. I could sell off lots of my stuff, make tons of money, and laugh all the way to the bank, but THAT would make me depressed. Remember, I still use all this stuff -- enjoy it, and get satisfaction out of it that is not at all monetary or capitalistic in any way.

I feel awfully sorry for those whose only interest in the old hardware is on such a base monetary / profit level. They're the dregs. The users who've grown up with all of this wonderful technology (from 4-bit on up!), using it, sweating it, making a living *designing* it, are the true retro heroes. It's fascinating to look back and reflect, introspect, and remember.

Truth is none of this will matter in 100 years. Just think of how little interest people generally have in keeping things from the 1920's. Old sowing machines for example seem fairly common. Museums and the like may pick up one or 2 but supply outweighs demand.
Another example is movies and music, Think how popular 1920's era stuff is. Not much. I remember growing up TV was often black and white so 30's though to more modern 60's.
Thinking about the typical retired person in the 1980's this would have matched their nostalgic itch. Quick check of daytime TV now it's 60's-90's Nostalgia constantly creeps along as generations die out.

In another 100 years people will have no nostalgia for turn of the century computing. Most hardware will also have failed by this time, software will still be available and useable by emulation but interest will be limited.

I try to save stuff, but really that's for my generation for enjoyment now and I do hope my kids sell my stuff when I do finally die, partly so others can enjoy but mostly so they have some money to spend on whatever they need.

I guess this is the fruit of a utilitarian society...
I build, repair, play etc. not because i have some sense of utility attached to these objects (i have to keep them alive for this, for that...), i don't even care about the items in their material form that much, i care about the essence or substance related to it, when i fire up a willamette system with a geforce 2 GTS in it i get a feeling that transcend reason or form, it's fun and joyful, metaphysical sensations that nurture the soul, i would recommend getting in touch with that side of yours OP because this strong materialistic way of thinking really doesn't help you and from what i'm seeing it's not really helping the world at large either.

twiz11 wrote on 2023-04-13, 00:55:

..It is such a burden to preserve and archive everything that I ended up doing the opposite and destroying everything to kingdom come. Pulping books, cutting CDs. Of course, the hardest lesson is you own nothing these days, and frankly, why would you want to own anything these days? Leave it to someone else to take care of it. most of the stuff I have should be in a museum because when I die it will be thrown out or given away anyway. Now I find myself using old media as coasters and firewood fuel. To deny others of my nostalgiac pain is necessary to remain ignorant and happy.

" i am 14 30 and this is deep " ?

why destroy things in a pretence at some form of denial/protection

and what's the problem with things being thrown out after you die, or ending in museums or whatever. the point is to experience the many 'nows' you get not to think overly long about 'afterwards'

nostalgia is nice but excessive nostalgia might be a sign of regret or missing out things you could have done. there is no going back but there is now and later, so do something with it. try rock climbing, play chess, go for walks - whatever - but actually do things.

chinny22 wrote on 2023-04-13, 09:19:

Truth is none of this will matter in 100 years. Just think of how little interest people generally have in keeping things from t […]
Show full quote

Truth is none of this will matter in 100 years. Just think of how little interest people generally have in keeping things from the 1920's. Old sowing machines for example seem fairly common. Museums and the like may pick up one or 2 but supply outweighs demand.
Another example is movies and music, Think how popular 1920's era stuff is. Not much. I remember growing up TV was often black and white so 30's though to more modern 60's.
Thinking about the typical retired person in the 1980's this would have matched their nostalgic itch. Quick check of daytime TV now it's 60's-90's Nostalgia constantly creeps along as generations die out.

In another 100 years people will have no nostalgia for turn of the century computing. Most hardware will also have failed by this time, software will still be available and useable by emulation but interest will be limited.

I try to save stuff, but really that's for my generation for enjoyment now and I do hope my kids sell my stuff when I do finally die, partly so others can enjoy but mostly so they have some money to spend on whatever they need.

very good observation - nostalgia is a moving timeband that follows a decade or few behind the people experiencing nostalgia.

once there is no one to remember the things become historically detached from us, museum pieces we have very little personal experience of (maybe seeing it in grandparents house when we were young) and eventually so old as to have no personal connection at all

no one feels nostalgic about ancient Egyptian pottery

i think your prediction is right - in time all hardware will fail but software will be there via emulation (perhaps by delving through several layers of emulation). Someone in 2098 may play half life, but as an experience it will feel very far removed from their day to day life

My kids are around age 25-30, nowadays they either have old consoles or mostly emulators for various Nintedo/Sony/Dreamcast. Some buy or otherwise obtain old PC games on steam or whatever (not gog so much). But they have zero interest in my old computing gear, even when it was stuff they played on as kids/teenagers.

I imagine software will long outlast hardware - pretty true for everything - I find myself finally using my kobo these days, books are mostly for the bookshelf... Netflix.. etc. Hardly have any books, CDs, DVDs, VHS, cassettes left. I guess consoles are more tactile, more like toys, more focused on games or something; and easier to understand that a PS1 game won't go in an N64.

But I still use half a dozen film cameras and process my own; and there are newer generations doing likewise - with Pentax/Ricoh mooting a new compact film camera (with others already making non-disposables again). Of course, they are artistic tools so a niche usage. LPs I guess is more that it's a relatively simple format? I dunno.

The main bleakness is for computer hardware, and that's what emulators are for in the long run. Not worth worrying about. You'll start wondering what the point of living is, and that's a hiding to nothing. The secret to happiness is distractions from deep thinking imho.

I've found that nostalgia usually isn't a positive thing if you aren't experiencing it from a positive state of mind. Like drinking while depressed, seeking out nostalgia can just end up amplifying negative feelings, even if it's not immediately obvious...

As for OP, to indulge in some bargain-bin psychology... From the limited glimpse you've given, it sounds to me like you define yourself far too heavily by your ownership of things, and by external things generally. By doing that, you're basing your sense of self on things you ultimately have no control over, and which will absolutely invariably - and naturally - be subject to change. I recommend actively seeking more internal things to define yourself by; positive and creative things. Look for new and different stuff to do/learn/experience; make new memories, find new passions.

For myself, I like the philosophical idea that the imperfection and impermanence of things is its own form of intrinsic beauty. I don't find that there's any conflict with that and appreciating retro stuff I find fun, important or interesting - nor with doing what little I can to preserve or support preservation of that stuff. But entropy is inevitable and just the universe operating as normal - so in summary: Don't panic.

People are free to resign themselves to the brave new mindset of "own nothing, be happy" if it makes them feel better. I won't begrudge anyone their Stockholm syndrome, and it'll make your overlords happy. But having entitlement-cum-destruction tantrums at the expense of others (not to mention the planet) isn't really something to flaunt. I would've thought 30 was a little old for it, but after all we live in "special" times, and you get what you tolerate.

Well, for starters I sure hope turning 30 isn't your "mid-life" crisis. Dying at 60 can happen for sure, but let us hope not.
Secondly the machine is more than the sum of it's parts....in other words it's the feelings that gets stirred up when messing with the hardware or playing the games that account for the nostalgia.
The items themselves don't always have to have intrinsic value in of themselves to cause this.
For example a Pentium 4 to me is essentially worthless and has zero value or interest to me, yet for the next guy it might hearken them back to their first PC they ever built.

I am guessing you just don't understand or care to understand why people are interested in this hobby. And that is fine.
Or maybe you have grown out of it, that is also fine.
But don't be surprised if it comes back around and you find yourself regretting using your collection as firewood.

Jasin Natael wrote on 2023-04-13, 16:57:

Well, for starters I sure hope turning 30 isn't your "mid-life" crisis. Dying at 60 can happen for sure, but let us hope not. S […]
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Well, for starters I sure hope turning 30 isn't your "mid-life" crisis. Dying at 60 can happen for sure, but let us hope not.
Secondly the machine is more than the sum of it's parts....in other words it's the feelings that gets stirred up when messing with the hardware or playing the games that account for the nostalgia.
The items themselves don't always have to have intrinsic value in of themselves to cause this.
For example a Pentium 4 to me is essentially worthless and has zero value or interest to me, yet for the next guy it might hearken them back to their first PC they ever built.

I am guessing you just don't understand or care to understand why people are interested in this hobby. And that is fine.
Or maybe you have grown out of it, that is also fine.
But don't be surprised if it comes back around and you find yourself regretting using your collection as firewood.

I used to go to thrift stores hunting for old stuff, then I just stopped when I found most of them had been archived on IA. I don't think I have had anything that was unique

chinny22 wrote on 2023-04-13, 09:19:

Truth is none of this will matter in 100 years.

You are correct, but not for the reasons you think. In 100 years, all of the old hardware and software will be able to be put into an FPGA chip unimaginable today, and render the original hardware truly obsolete. Such a task will be small potatoes for the FPGAs in 100 years, like the tech of today is for getting a 16-bit DAC into all computers sold today -- a few cents of expense. The reason "none of this (collecting) will matter" is not because there won't be interest in the systems of 100 years ago, but because that support will be "cooked" in to a small chip one can purchase for a rather small sum. Similar to how most optical drives of today (even UHD ones) are still backwardly-compatible to regular CDs -- a 42-year-old format now. In 100 years, all of this will probably be AR anyway; everyone will be connected in some kind of morbid real-life network anyway.

The sewing machines of the 1920s aren't that interesting now because they could only do *one* thing. The systems of the 1980s could be programmed to do millions of things. And tens-of-thousands of those "things" are still out there and want to be used by people today -- 40+ years after being made. The Atari 2600 and Apple IIs are going on almost 50 years old at this point, and millions of people still want and play them -- if only through emulation -- and soon ubiquitous and inexpensive FPGA chips.

VileR wrote on 2023-04-13, 16:29:

the expense of others (not to mention the planet)

Yeah, this part bothered me too. Admittedly it can be difficult to find the "best" way to dispose of things you longer want, especially if you don't have a lot of time. However, books and CDs for example may be accepted as donations by thrift stores, then someone else might be able to buy them despite otherwise not being able to afford them. Otherwise, at the very least they can generally be recycled.

doshea wrote on 2023-04-14, 07:51:

VileR wrote on 2023-04-13, 16:29:

the expense of others (not to mention the planet)

Yeah, this part bothered me too. Admittedly it can be difficult to find the "best" way to dispose of things you longer want, especially if you don't have a lot of time. However, books and CDs for example may be accepted as donations by thrift stores, then someone else might be able to buy them despite otherwise not being able to afford them. Otherwise, at the very least they can generally be recycled.

Sadly the more i read and the more it seems like a full on existential crisis, so i'm not surprised by the destructive\nihilistic outburst.
I would suggest making the fulcrum of ones life the immanent and not technology, OP needs help.

zyzzle wrote on 2023-04-14, 00:16:

In 100 years, all of the old hardware and software will be able to be put into an FPGA chip unimaginable today, and render the original hardware truly obsolete. Such a task will be small potatoes for the FPGAs in 100 years, like the tech of today is for getting a 16-bit DAC into all computers sold today -- a few cents of expense. The reason "none of this (collecting) will matter" is not because there won't be interest in the systems of 100 years ago, but because that support will be "cooked" in to a small chip one can purchase for a rather small sum. Similar to how most optical drives of today (even UHD ones) are still backwardly-compatible to regular CDs -- a 42-year-old format now. In 100 years, all of this will probably be AR anyway; everyone will be connected in some kind of morbid real-life network anyway.

The sewing machines of the 1920s aren't that interesting now because they could only do *one* thing. The systems of the 1980s could be programmed to do millions of things. And tens-of-thousands of those "things" are still out there and want to be used by people today -- 40+ years after being made. The Atari 2600 and Apple IIs are going on almost 50 years old at this point, and millions of people still want and play them -- if only through emulation -- and soon ubiquitous and inexpensive FPGA chips.

will it even need to be specifically represented in FPGA when almost any future (insert imagined number of cores, quantum computing etc) general purpose computer may be able to simultaneously provide emulations of hundreds of things from today with ease?

perhaps even with the verbal instruction "emulate some old consoles and computers from the late 20th century" causing the AI to immediately scan historic data and recreate emulations on the fly (and maybe some all new games derived from old ones too!)

but then we are assuming that human society in a century, after decades of inevitable economic, social and other change, ever more advanced technology and ever more incomprehensible AI influences would be recognisable to us - we may see hints of what's to come in our remaining years

interesting thing with those old sewing machines - because they do one thing well (usually without needing electricity) there is a small but consistent set of enthusiastic users for whom they represent a very quick way of doing that one thing without the complexities (and potential reliability problems as well as huge capability increases) introduced by later machines

zyzzle wrote on 2023-04-14, 00:16:

chinny22 wrote on 2023-04-13, 09:19:

Truth is none of this will matter in 100 years.

You are correct, but not for the reasons you think. In 100 years, all of the old hardware and software will be able to be put into an FPGA chip unimaginable today, and render the original hardware truly obsolete. Such a task will be small potatoes for the FPGAs in 100 years, like the tech of today is for getting a 16-bit DAC into all computers sold today -- a few cents of expense. The reason "none of this (collecting) will matter" is not because there won't be interest in the systems of 100 years ago, but because that support will be "cooked" in to a small chip one can purchase for a rather small sum. Similar to how most optical drives of today (even UHD ones) are still backwardly-compatible to regular CDs -- a 42-year-old format now. In 100 years, all of this will probably be AR anyway; everyone will be connected in some kind of morbid real-life network anyway.

The sewing machines of the 1920s aren't that interesting now because they could only do *one* thing. The systems of the 1980s could be programmed to do millions of things. And tens-of-thousands of those "things" are still out there and want to be used by people today -- 40+ years after being made. The Atari 2600 and Apple IIs are going on almost 50 years old at this point, and millions of people still want and play them -- if only through emulation -- and soon ubiquitous and inexpensive FPGA chips.

I agree with you, In a way we already see it. Processing power already far exceeds the requirements to run games plus the emulator and we are only talking 20 odd years of progress.
However the fact remains even if it costs a fraction to "cook" it into a chip. Interest will be next to nill. Just as we are already able to watch or listen to 100 year old movies/music on itunes yet the majority does not.

Hey, you're just on your 30s... definitely not midlife yet. Regardless, what you said is correct IMHO but the same thing can be viewed in a far more positive way.
I feel that a lot of people (myself included) got into collecting for nostalgia reasons and only more recently realized that collecting is not just about having things, but being able to care for them and that's a LOT of work. Things like storing, keeping track, sorting, fixing, thinking about ways to use them, etc. The larger your collection is, the more time you have to invest taking care of it (even if it is just for keeping it without adding more items), depending on the person, it may be worth it or not.
IMHO you did the right thing by getting rid of what was taking away precious time from you. And yes, it's possible that after some time you have the urge to play with some of the things you used to have and start feeling regret, but once you remember the stress of maintaining all that the feeling goes away.
I'm too in the same journey of getting rid of my collection (mine is mostly console games)... I'm not feeling like tossing fire on it (yet), but I'm selling/giving away what I can.

Personally, I went through some of those things myself in the past.
Midlife crisis.. Problem is, that the generations born in 80s-00s, had nothing but crises, one after another. With the exception of a small period of peace/breathing space in the 90s, it's an ongoing crisis.
There was no feeling of safety, of having a purpose. Everything was (is) uncertain, nothing to hold on. It's like driving a dark endless road in the night. Forever.
Generations before didn't have experienced something equal, I suppose.
They had experienced ups and downs, sure, but it wasn't comparable. They had a goal, things that were continous (there was continuity, even during cold war). Nowadays, everything is changing (so fast), nothing to hold on to.

Edited.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-04-14, 17:58:

Generations before didn't have experienced something equal, I suppose.
They had experienced ups and downs, sure, but it wasn't comparable. They had a goal, things that were continous (there was continuity, even during cold war). Nowadays, everything is changing (so fast), nothing to hold on to.

Very true, and I thank my lucky stars nearly every day that I've lived during the times when things weren't so fast-paced. There was time, to "hold onto the moment." Now, that's impossible. It's little wonder why quality of life has declined so fast for so many. I would never want to be a kid (ie, anyone under 30) today. It'd be a constant yo-yo of change, and I've valued stability and slow growth my entire life.

Getting rid of stuff? Why should I bother with it now? I have the space, and still get the enjoyment of most of my gear. I've no heirs, except people who would just try to cash-in and sell or throw away all of the stuff I've used and acquired over a very busy life. Leave that duty to them. I don't want it, especially since I've no reason to stress myself out about the future provenance of my stuff now, or ever. It makes me sad that cashing-in or throwaway seems like its future, but so be it.

ratfink wrote on 2023-04-13, 11:48:

My kids are around age 25-30, nowadays they either have old consoles or mostly emulators for various Nintedo/Sony/Dreamcast. So […]
Show full quote

My kids are around age 25-30, nowadays they either have old consoles or mostly emulators for various Nintedo/Sony/Dreamcast. Some buy or otherwise obtain old PC games on steam or whatever (not gog so much). But they have zero interest in my old computing gear, even when it was stuff they played on as kids/teenagers.

I imagine software will long outlast hardware - pretty true for everything - I find myself finally using my kobo these days, books are mostly for the bookshelf... Netflix.. etc. Hardly have any books, CDs, DVDs, VHS, cassettes left. I guess consoles are more tactile, more like toys, more focused on games or something; and easier to understand that a PS1 game won't go in an N64.

But I still use half a dozen film cameras and process my own; and there are newer generations doing likewise - with Pentax/Ricoh mooting a new compact film camera (with others already making non-disposables again). Of course, they are artistic tools so a niche usage. LPs I guess is more that it's a relatively simple format? I dunno.

The main bleakness is for computer hardware, and that's what emulators are for in the long run. Not worth worrying about. You'll start wondering what the point of living is, and that's a hiding to nothing. The secret to happiness is distractions from deep thinking imho.

I wouldn't change my dad for anyone else in the world, but boy do I wish my father was into old computers as much as you!

subhuman@xgtx wrote on 2023-04-16, 14:27:

ratfink wrote on 2023-04-13, 11:48:

My kids are around age 25-30, nowadays they either have old consoles or mostly emulators for various Nintedo/Sony/Dreamcast. So […]
Show full quote

My kids are around age 25-30, nowadays they either have old consoles or mostly emulators for various Nintedo/Sony/Dreamcast. Some buy or otherwise obtain old PC games on steam or whatever (not gog so much). But they have zero interest in my old computing gear, even when it was stuff they played on as kids/teenagers.

I imagine software will long outlast hardware - pretty true for everything - I find myself finally using my kobo these days, books are mostly for the bookshelf... Netflix.. etc. Hardly have any books, CDs, DVDs, VHS, cassettes left. I guess consoles are more tactile, more like toys, more focused on games or something; and easier to understand that a PS1 game won't go in an N64.

But I still use half a dozen film cameras and process my own; and there are newer generations doing likewise - with Pentax/Ricoh mooting a new compact film camera (with others already making non-disposables again). Of course, they are artistic tools so a niche usage. LPs I guess is more that it's a relatively simple format? I dunno.

The main bleakness is for computer hardware, and that's what emulators are for in the long run. Not worth worrying about. You'll start wondering what the point of living is, and that's a hiding to nothing. The secret to happiness is distractions from deep thinking imho.

I wouldn't change my dad for anyone else in the world, but boy do I wish my father was into old computers as much as you!

The sad part is my dad is what got me into retro stuff, finding computers alongside the road on garbage day and fixing them up, and using them in my bedroom. But I don't find old pcs lying about anymore, the ones I've seen are at recycling plants waiting to be crushed and made anew. It's difficult to keep hardware esp with the issues of leaky, blown caps or the simple clock battery keeping the CMOS chip working and when the battery died the motherboard was bricked. I was infatuated with so much, so naive that the world would never stretch outside my bedroom yet here we are. I offload so much to the cloud that I use so many things for granted. Its what led me to living a spartan lifestyle, not much baggage. Everything is on chips as big as a fingernails length.