Check eBay sold listings for what they're actually worth. Sellers dream a lot and come up with bizarre things in their heads that simply aren't so, like calling very common items "RARE" and listing $25 items for $2500 (yes it happens).

keenmaster486 wrote on 2023-07-12, 16:34:

like calling very common items "RARE" and listing $25 items for $2500 (yes it happens).

Can confirm. I just bought an old catalogue for under $40 and a week later someone is trying to sell the same one for $2000.

If it comes to old membrane keyboards, probably only Logitech G series are somewhat pricy, if in good condition.

Retro computing is a weird hobby. Often sellers will list things for high prices because they’re large warehouses that are willing to sit on an item for months and months waiting for that person that needs that exact thing. In this example someone could completing their childhood computer and they need that exact keyboard regardless of it’s quality. Those sellers are waiting on that buyer and they have patience. But that does not mean they’re worth it or that most of them sell for that price. The ones that sell aren’t listed anymore, because they sold 🤣. Just have to keep an eye out for what your looking for.

Buckling spring keyboards are still being made in Kentucky.

Here is their website:

https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/SFNT

Their new keyboards can be made with Windows keys and all sorts of other keys and they are made with PS/2 or USB according to your preference.

Be aware that these keyboards might need the machine screw and nut mod. But if you don’t want to go through that then they do offer a repair service for their products or any other IBM Model M.

I love my Unicomp keyboard. I’ll never go back to cheap keyboards that don’t even last a year.

"Old keyboards" aren't desirable. Good (and/or memorable) ones, that may or may not happen to be old, are. Few people bother trying to sell the shitty stuff, that's why average prices are higher than with new stock - most of the crap has already been filtered out.

Also, ignore still-available BIN prices (=stuff noone wants at that price) or unsold auctions (=stuff noone wanted even at the starting price). Those numbers are nothing but wishful thinking. Finished, sold offers are the only thing that matters.

insanitor wrote on 2023-07-12, 18:20:

Buckling spring keyboards are still being made in Kentucky. […]
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Buckling spring keyboards are still being made in Kentucky.

Here is their website:

https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/SFNT

Their new keyboards can be made with Windows keys and all sorts of other keys and they are made with PS/2 or USB according to your preference.

Be aware that these keyboards might need the machine screw and nut mod. But if you don’t want to go through that then they do offer a repair service for their products or any other IBM Model M.

I love my Unicomp keyboard. I’ll never go back to cheap keyboards that don’t even last a year.

Unicomp has some of the best service I've seen in the business. I can't recommend them enough for that.

Unfortunately I'm not so lyrical about the keyboards themselves. They are a lot lighter than the older Model M boards, which makes them noisier and flimsy-feeling. I would go for a vintage Model M (1st, 2nd or 3rg gen) any day before a new Unicomp. Plus the new ones have the same 2KRO issue as the old ones, even with USB interface.

As for the question why vintage keyboards are so sought-after, it's partly fashion (any decent modern keyboard can type as well, and can be interfaced to old systems), combined with scarcity. Same as with 3DFx or Gravis cards. As already mentioned though, just as with the cards, there are far better deals out there than 'buy it now' prices on auction sites.

Add to that that the keyboard industry was a lot more diverse back then and there are certain types of board (either layout or switches) that simply don't get made anymore these days. Whether they are objectively better is another matter (XT layout... 🙁 ) but there is uniqueness there and if you like it, it can be worth money. to you It's also a glorious rabbit hole to dive down. I'm pretty far gone; in general I make a point of trying to buy as cheap as possible (the hunt for the good deal is more fun than shelling out three or more digits, even if I have the money available), but there's still a lot of cash sunk in my keyboard cupboard.

Also, just as with sought-after old cards, there are replicas and production reruns being done. I'm typing this on by far my most expensive board for now, a Model F capacitive buckling spring board with modern minimalist 84-key SSK layout, made with the original tooling brought out of retirement. Model F was what IBM used before Model M, which - believe it or not, given their reputation among modern keyboard users - was a relative el-cheapo cost cutting exercise. The F is superior in almost all respects, other than availability and layout: lighter touch, NKRO, longer life etc - just in sub-optimal configurations. Which this new one solves. Is this the ultimate keyboard? No, it is but the precursor to what could be that: the same people are now doing a modern re-make of IBM beam spring switches and keyboards to put them in. I drool - and will say "shut up and take my money" when it's available.

On the other hand I have some downright awful keyboards that are just hilariously bad (Fujitsu Peerless switches come to mind - I paid EUR 1 in a thrift shop for a board with them and am not sure whether that was a bargain 😜 ). And some weird ones, like the Matias Tactile Pro (1st edition) which I found NOS. It is a remake of the best old Apple Extended keyboards but in a shiny acrylic housing. Which resonates heavily, making the clicky Matias (Alps white clone) switches ear-deafeningly loud (and remember I'm a buckling spring fan so I'm hardly oversensitive to clicky noises). Beautiful workmanship though, and types like a dream. Just a VERY VERY LOUD one.

There are also nice big fields of discussion one can have - ANSI vs ISO vs big-ass enter layout (the latter with a half-size backspace is the personification of evil in my opinion), relative merits of switches (I don't like old Alps - too scratchy IMHO; this is a minority view).

Etc etc etc - as I said, it's a rabbit hole you can dive gloriously deep down, with the added advantage that you can actually use most of this stuff as a daily driver too. If enough people feel that way, the laws of supply & demand do their thing.

dionb wrote on 2023-07-12, 20:05:

Model F capacitive buckling spring board with modern minimalist 84-key SSK layout, made with the original tooling brought out of retirement.

Wow that's a mouthful 😁 I think I saw that on LGR and it will certainly pair nicely with any vintage computer, but seeing the price I am more than happy with my reasonably-priced mechanical keyboards - at least for now.

Anyway, your post was a fun read, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

dionb wrote on 2023-07-12, 20:05:

Model F capacitive buckling spring board with modern minimalist 84-key SSK layout, made with the original tooling brought out of retirement.

Is that from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/? I had no idea that the original Model F tooling was involved.

I was pleased to see that they finally introduced full-sized keyboards earlier this year. Admittedly, I'd love to have this one, but for the fact that it's pre-order with no definite shipping date besides 'later this year'. I've also seen a couple of reports stating that their keyboards didn't come though shipping in the best of states, which makes me a bit wary.

doublebuffer wrote on 2023-07-12, 16:17:

Why are old keyboards so desirable (and hence, pricey)?

Many old items become pricey if availability declines, but that does not necessarily make it desirable. I bet specifically in the case of IBM keyboards, their mythical 'greatness' tends to get people to over-value them. Buckling spring or not, I do not think they were that special.

I never owned a "legendary" Model M or Model F. One of them (or both? I forgot) is so "legendary" that it suffers form 2-KRO limitation, making it unusable for a lot of the 'advanced' gaming needs, whereas you can get many modern (or semi-modern) mechanical keyboards with N-KRO, even with PS/2 connectors, I believe.

Barring gaming, the IBM keyboards do give a pleasant experience to type on, even the rubber dome variants. IBM-7953, IBM-8923 for example. They are also of higher quality and sturdiness than the average run-of-the-mill keyboard, and so more of them have survived to reach our days. They can be a nice addition to a retro-system as long as N-KRO is not required. I have a couple myself.

dr_st wrote on 2023-07-13, 08:36:

Barring gaming, the IBM keyboards do give a pleasant experience to type on, even the rubber dome variants.

My friend's family had an IBM with Model M, honestly I thought the keyboard was broken because it kept such horrible noise and the keys kept, well, buckling under pressure 😀 I much preferred the soft feel of my Keytronic. Of course I was a kid so what do I knew. And now that you mentioned, we never played multiplayer games on it (two or more players on the same keyboard - this genre was big here in finland back then), probably because it wasn't able to do that.

Anyhow, I don't have especially fond memories of keyboards of that era. Nor for the mice for that matter.

doublebuffer wrote on 2023-07-13, 11:45:

Nor for the mice for that matter.

I don't think you'll find many that do, beyond some nostalgia 😁
Ball mice were just technically inferior, and unlike old mechanical keyboards, don't exactly provide an experience you'd want to go back to!

Well, unlike you like having to clean rubber balls frequently and all the fun that comes from that! 😁

Both IBM Model M and F had excellent build quality for such old keyboards, the former establishing the well-known standard 101-103 keyboard layout that most modern ones use.

Alps switches are a decent alternative if quality is desired, and certain variants of them are less noisy than the bucking spring. Dell AT101W is one of these keyboards.

The model m was like a cost reducement from the model f construction wise.

Weren't there at least two Model F, though? 🤷‍♂️
My father had the version for the AT (num block, LEDs) which looked different to the Model Fs used on XTs.

Grem Five wrote on 2023-07-13, 14:22:

The model m was like a cost reducement from the model f construction wise.

Yep, with the use of a membrane sheet (it isn't necessarily just for rubber dome switches, btw) and the 2-key rollover limitation. Still, the quality is a significantly better than most cheap non-mechanical keyboards.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-07-13, 14:42:

Grem Five wrote on 2023-07-13, 14:22:

The model m was like a cost reducement from the model f construction wise.

Yep, with the use of a membrane sheet (it isn't necessarily just for rubber dome switches, btw) and the 2-key rollover limitation. Still, the quality is a significantly better than most cheap non-mechanical keyboards.

Does anybody by any chance know how Cherry keyboards relate to this?
They used to be popular in my place, ca. mid-late 80s to early 90s, but not necessarily because for being cheap.
Some models even looked quite similar to the Model M.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-07-13, 14:50:

Does anybody by any chance know how Cherry keyboards relate to this? They used to be popular in my place, ca. mid-late 80s to ea […]
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Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-07-13, 14:42:

Grem Five wrote on 2023-07-13, 14:22:

The model m was like a cost reducement from the model f construction wise.

Yep, with the use of a membrane sheet (it isn't necessarily just for rubber dome switches, btw) and the 2-key rollover limitation. Still, the quality is a significantly better than most cheap non-mechanical keyboards.

Does anybody by any chance know how Cherry keyboards relate to this?
They used to be popular in my place, ca. mid-late 80s to early 90s, but not necessarily because for being cheap.
Some models even looked quite similar to the Model M.

Well, I didn't have a keyboard with those switches back then, but I used to have the Logitech G710+ with Cherry MX brown switches that included rubber rings to dampen the noise. It a heavy keyboard (somewhat closer to the IBM Model M) and typing experience felt good.

On ebay about 90% of "clicky mechanical" keyboards are actually rubber domed or foam & foil (made up % for effect).

I think if any keyboard makes the slightest noise they list it as "clicky mechanical" at 4x the price.