I enjoy having a CRT for my retro machines. I agree with Joseph_Joestar in that it makes DOS games look great. I'm playing Warcraft 1 for the first time which I believe is 320x200, yet I find myself studying all the little details and love how the same pixel looks a little different depending on where it is on the screen. I also agree with Ensign Nemo in that you can't fake a CRT, even with the latest shaders. There's some real nostalgic value in these heavy old boxes that I like to have despite how inconvenient they are. Much of retro computing is kind of inconvenient in a (fun) way, haha.

I currently have two CRTs: a NEC XV17+ which is my "good" CRT - multisync, sharp, many resolution, refresh, and adjustment options - but quite heavy, and an Optiquest Q41 which is pretty small and lightweight, but lacks options to fine tune the display and is a little blurry above 640x480. I also had a huge flat Dell Trinitron back in the day, it came with a Dimension desktop. That monitor was a beast and looked amazing, but we got rid of it when the first LCDs became affordable. Still miss it sometimes.

I do often use LCDs for builds though, especially for testing. I have one nice retro LCD (NEC 1500M) and one modern Lenovo ThinkVision LCD (L1900p), both 4:3.

Pierre32 wrote on 2023-08-06, 01:46:

This sums it up for me. Until the VGA era is covered by a good scaler, I'd rather be using a bad CRT than even the best flat panel.

The CRT Terminator looks very promising, but realistically it will still only cover the early VGA era.

I'm curious to see what the Checkmate monitor project ultimately delivers.

I backed the Kickstarter and have been actively following development. I'm cautiously optimistic at this point.

I'm mighty curious about the Checkmate monitors too!

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-08-06, 02:30:

Pierre32 wrote on 2023-08-06, 01:46:

This sums it up for me. Until the VGA era is covered by a good scaler, I'd rather be using a bad CRT than even the best flat panel.

The CRT Terminator looks very promising, but realistically it will still only cover the early VGA era.

I'm curious to see what the Checkmate monitor project ultimately delivers.

I backed the Kickstarter and have been actively following development. I'm cautiously optimistic at this point.

Interesting project. But what about QC/QA? Any warranty? I'm always suspicious about quality of all of those projects. And I'm not talking about their prices which are usually sky high and it is explainable due to obvious reasons.

doublebuffer wrote on 2023-08-02, 08:13:

What do you think of CRTs?

I have been enjoying revisiting CRTs and all the techs related to them. Just so much capabilities and features that I either didn't know or took for granted back in the day. Personally prefer systems with somewhat period correct HW+SW.

4xH. Huge, Heavy, Hot, Hissy.
I still have bow in my desk from years of CRTs from 14 VGA noname to 21 Nokias.
My first LCD was terrible 15inch TN office appliance, and even then I was glad to no longer have to put up with CRT. Next one was NEC MultiSync LCD1830 (5:4 1280x1024, dual VGA inputs, Sync-On-Green), still TN but this time highend model from reputable brand ($900 new in 2002) and I was in love.

Well I wasn't really looking for one, but I put my money, the king's ransom of $2, where my mouth is and adopted one I found on Saturday. I don't know if I would have picked up a 15" or a 21" I have a couple of each, nor even a 17", but this was a "goldilocks" 19" in that it's not much bigger externally than my IBM trinitron 17s. While not real short, it was also "short enough" not being much greater than the depth of a typical system unit. When I get my idealest setup going I'm gonna want a stack of machines KVMed to one large-ish monitor, and the 21" are just too large... like you've gotta have 4ft depth of desk and lean back from them another 3 feet. So in my head I was back and forth all the time between 17" and 21" annnd this Samsung SynchMaster seems like the perfect compromise, while not actually being a compromise... in that the flat square tube is better and does same res and refresh as the 21s, and it's about the same size and weight of the 17s. Not saying there are not better 21s though, these were high priced models of their day, but that day was "Holy crap, I didn't even know you could get them as big as 21" so better stuff was around since. Anyway monitor whelmedness is reaching peak values.

It depends on what unit you need a display for. This site consists of very early collectors (80s), midlins (90s), and 2000s. So I'm supposed to replace every early to mid 80s crt with an lcd? I mean it doesn't hurt to have backup. But if you own 1 or more nice crts, there's no substitute for that period.

This is an off the wall example. But what lcd would replace a 1 page black and white crt?

I really enjoy the look and feel of a CRT on my old machines.
Besides enjoying the display output, it of course works better with older systems that expect the display to be able to jump between resolutions relatively quickly.

That said, a big part of it for me is the aesthetics too.
I'm slowly and selectively hoarding a couple CRTs to last me a while, but specifically ones that fit the look of my systems, if that makes any sense.

For instance, I grabbed a Samsung Syncmaster 3NE from Italy, not because it's the greatest VGA CRT ever, but because it's a decent monitor with that late 80s to early-mid 90s design that fits AT towers of the era perfectly.
Most LCDs just do not look "right" in such a setup, they generally don't for anything pre-2000s for me.

I get that that's a bit of a particular desire and not everyone cares about it, but I do.
Should my CRTs ever fail in such a way that they're not able to be repaired (worn, irreplaceable tube, or other irreplaceable crucial components), I would probably gut the monitor and fit it with an LCD to maintain the aesthetics.

Of course, jamming a flat LCD panel into a rounded CRT shell looks bad without some work, so I would do something like this OP on 68kMLA did by having something like carefully bent plexiglass in front of the panel to provide the curved glass look of a CRT.

That, and I am keeping a look out for any retro-look LCD monitors.
The Checkmate displays might tempt me if they ever sell them outside of the Kickstarter campaign.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-08-06, 06:16:

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-08-06, 02:30:

Pierre32 wrote on 2023-08-06, 01:46:

This sums it up for me. Until the VGA era is covered by a good scaler, I'd rather be using a bad CRT than even the best flat panel.

The CRT Terminator looks very promising, but realistically it will still only cover the early VGA era.

I'm curious to see what the Checkmate monitor project ultimately delivers.

I backed the Kickstarter and have been actively following development. I'm cautiously optimistic at this point.

Interesting project. But what about QC/QA? Any warranty? I'm always suspicious about quality of all of those projects.

Any boutique-style project is going to carry more risk than mass-consumer stuff.

As for warranty, I figure anything like this I can probably repair myself. This particular design is intended to be modular, so any maintenance and repairs should be doable.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-08-07, 16:58:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-08-06, 06:16:

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-08-06, 02:30:

I'm curious to see what the Checkmate monitor project ultimately delivers.

I backed the Kickstarter and have been actively following development. I'm cautiously optimistic at this point.

Interesting project. But what about QC/QA? Any warranty? I'm always suspicious about quality of all of those projects.

Any boutique-style project is going to carry more risk than mass-consumer stuff.

As for warranty, I figure anything like this I can probably repair myself. This particular design is intended to be modular, so any maintenance and repairs should be doable.

Everything is doable ... but why I have to pay lots of money for something that in the end I'll have to repair by myself? I have nothing against amateur or boutique-style projects, but if they want real money, not boutique-style that I draw with my pencil, then they have to grow up and become serious about quality of their products and to give me some warranty. 🙂

Daniël Oosterhuis wrote on 2023-08-07, 07:32:

I really enjoy the look and feel of a CRT on my old machines. Besides enjoying the display output, it of course works better wi […]
Show full quote

I really enjoy the look and feel of a CRT on my old machines.
Besides enjoying the display output, it of course works better with older systems that expect the display to be able to jump between resolutions relatively quickly.

That said, a big part of it for me is the aesthetics too.
I'm slowly and selectively hoarding a couple CRTs to last me a while, but specifically ones that fit the look of my systems, if that makes any sense.

For instance, I grabbed a Samsung Syncmaster 3NE from Italy, not because it's the greatest VGA CRT ever, but because it's a decent monitor with that late 80s to early-mid 90s design that fits AT towers of the era perfectly.
Most LCDs just do not look "right" in such a setup, they generally don't for anything pre-2000s for me.

I get that that's a bit of a particular desire and not everyone cares about it, but I do.
Should my CRTs ever fail in such a way that they're not able to be repaired (worn, irreplaceable tube, or other irreplaceable crucial components), I would probably gut the monitor and fit it with an LCD to maintain the aesthetics.

I'm not as big on aesthetics, as I just have a couple of generic beige boxes and a few laptops. However, for some systems, a CRT looks so cool. A good example is the IBM PS/1:

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/se … ct/nmah_1303225

It wouldn't look half as cool hooked up to an LCD imo.

Ensign Nemo wrote on 2023-08-07, 18:02:

I'm not as big on aesthetics, as I just have a couple of generic beige boxes and a few laptops. However, for some systems, a CRT […]
Show full quote

Daniël Oosterhuis wrote on 2023-08-07, 07:32:

I really enjoy the look and feel of a CRT on my old machines. Besides enjoying the display output, it of course works better wi […]
Show full quote

I really enjoy the look and feel of a CRT on my old machines.
Besides enjoying the display output, it of course works better with older systems that expect the display to be able to jump between resolutions relatively quickly.

That said, a big part of it for me is the aesthetics too.
I'm slowly and selectively hoarding a couple CRTs to last me a while, but specifically ones that fit the look of my systems, if that makes any sense.

For instance, I grabbed a Samsung Syncmaster 3NE from Italy, not because it's the greatest VGA CRT ever, but because it's a decent monitor with that late 80s to early-mid 90s design that fits AT towers of the era perfectly.
Most LCDs just do not look "right" in such a setup, they generally don't for anything pre-2000s for me.

I get that that's a bit of a particular desire and not everyone cares about it, but I do.
Should my CRTs ever fail in such a way that they're not able to be repaired (worn, irreplaceable tube, or other irreplaceable crucial components), I would probably gut the monitor and fit it with an LCD to maintain the aesthetics.

I'm not as big on aesthetics, as I just have a couple of generic beige boxes and a few laptops. However, for some systems, a CRT looks so cool. A good example is the IBM PS/1:

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/se … ct/nmah_1303225

It wouldn't look half as cool hooked up to an LCD imo.

Nothing compares to Holborn design.

That Holborn looks like it was a prop for a medical device in a 70s sci-fi movie!

So... I finally got a SyncMaster 955DF in a very good condition. Looks like it wasn't used much. It wasn't practical or easy and I still have to figure out where it will "live" but I'm very glad I bought it.

I'm surprised by how everything looks and feels with this monitor. Pixels look so sharp.

This monitor even supports 1600x1200@60Hz, which is amazing but not really practical. Above 1024x768 things start to look too small for me. Playing around a bit, I managed to set the refresh rate with PowerStrip to 69Hz (it doesn't tolerate 70Hz), and it's much easier on the eyes. Does setting this refresh rate harm the monitor in some way since it's not vendor specified?

What about 6500k vs 9300k color? Which one is preferred?

I'm still learning about CRTs since I was a child back then...

Comparing it to an LED IPS display, this CRT looks and feels ALIVE, while the LED is merely a screen. I think that's the best way to describe the difference.

I've never actually killed a monitor playing with powerstrip or xvidtune under xfree86 but if you push it too far it will probably start with "squeeee" at one extra pixel or HZ increment, so if you try one more it will then go "sqeeeelump" and shut down with a black screen while you soil your underwear... then after 5 minutes with your heart pounding in your throat, you can prolly get it to come back on again..... So basically, if you hear it protest, it's probably a notch too far and you should back it off rather than try a little further.

I really can't say for sure why LCDs lack "dimension" to me. Iow a crt seems to have depth, to some degree anyway. LCDs have a hell of a lot of saturation, the color therefore looks like painted on pigmented color (like a print). Iow 2 dimensional. That may be an aspect of it. Someone suggested it might be that glass tubes have a degree of depth to them. Phosphors are illuminated behind a "window". There may even be a plexiglass? protective layer.

I only think I have 1 working crt at the moment. One that I can just plug in and use straitaway. A 19" KDS w/about 3 hours of use. It's not a trinitron. I just remember when I had my original server, I'd pop some onscure Linux cd in. And we'll can't explain it, but some weird error occurred and bizarre geometric patterns appear on the screen. It's the sort of thing that makes you really appreciate a crt. Really anything that isn't all clapped out.

I cracked open a 14" Toshiba tv/dvd unit the other night. I have plans to gut it, and replace the chassis in my Commodore 1702. It just might work. The lady next door threw it out. It's barely used and has an image that approaches that of a Trinitron. In brightest and saturation anyway. If it actually fits, I'd then need to determine where to inject the chroma and luma signals a C64 puts out. For maximum resolution and clarity.

BitWrangler wrote on 2023-08-10, 22:29:

I've never actually killed a monitor playing with powerstrip or xvidtune under xfree86 but if you push it too far it will probably start with "squeeee" at one extra pixel or HZ increment, so if you try one more it will then go "sqeeeelump" and shut down with a black screen while you soil your underwear... then after 5 minutes with your heart pounding in your throat, you can prolly get it to come back on again..... So basically, if you hear it protest, it's probably a notch too far and you should back it off rather than try a little further.

🤣!
I think this one has some sort of controller that doesn't let it go to a dangerous refresh rate, since it supports 69Hz at 1600x1200 but it doesn't even try to switch to 70Hz. 1024x768@85 is more than enough for me anyway.

It does make a noise when you turn it on, like it's degaussing but a bit stronger.
The "sharpness" option is quite interesting.

So far, 6500k looks better, I think.

Usually only early CRT monitors (mono, CGA) could be damaged by invalid H/V sync signals. And even some of these early ones have some form of protection against it (will not sync to signals too far out of usual range). That being said any experimenting is always somewhat risky, the older and tired the monitor is the more likely it will very much not like cranking it to 11. But in general late SVGA monitors (17" tubes and above) should have decent electronics preventing damage from out of range sync signals.

6500k is what most monitors should be using, unless there is a specific requirement to have it set otherwise. Problem is CRTs are not so great at having strong red, but can do strong blue (especially the more modern CRTs) so they were usually sold (and defaulted) to 9300k, or close, to show more bright picture in a well-lit room. But this does screw up white balance towards blue, as the color temperature suggests. Curiously enough sometimes the blue phosphor (and/or gun) goes bad first (esp. if 9300k setting was used for a long time) so the screen turns sort-of reddish or yellow. In that case stay with 9300k because going to 6500k would only make it worse - and in any case, the tube is all but done by that point.

And then there's gamma curve and most CRTs will only do 2.0 with decent white balance, 2.2 is usually not possible to get and the older the tube is, the more difficult it would be. But gamma is not really something to worry too much about, most consumer grade CRT monitors didn't even offer such adjustment.

CRTs are also useful for newer games! 😁

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99B-h8sNrdc