spacesaver wrote on 2023-09-25, 00:13:

Has anyone gotten this NIC to work in WFW 3.11? https://www.vogons.org/download/file.php?mode=view&id=174464 […]
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Has anyone gotten this NIC to work in WFW 3.11?

Here's what I tried so far
1. Clearly it works in Windows 98, which I saw it automatically detected
2. During boot, it runs the PXE boot loader.
3. I installed the WFW311 drivers from 3c90x1.exe (has a directory WFW311). But then it hangs during the Windows 3.1 startup screen.
4. I tried the DOS diagnostic, 3c90xcfg.exe, but it says "No 3C90X NICs are installed in this computer"

I think it's supported, but not sure. The fact that the driver exists means it's supported. But I have some doubts.
1. I don't see any mention of WFW 3.11 in the manual https://archive.org/details/manualslib-id-23/ … ge/n37/mode/2up, chapter 3. There is a NDIS 2 DOS driver. It seems WFW 3.11 uses something in between NDIS 2 and NDIS 3.
2. I'm running this on a 486. It seems a PCI NIC would be uncommon during the days of WFW 3.11 ?

Kinda sounds like an issue with card resources on boot up - does their card ID app have the same trouble at the prompt (compressed archive attached)?

Tried it and it was detected

3Com adapter(s) and configuration detected:
Interrupt level: 11
I/O Base: E800
Slot number: 10
Boot ROM Size: 64KB
Performance optimized for: Normal
Data Rate : 10/100 Mbps support
Media Connector: Auto Select
Ethernet address: 000476F700C0

I also tried disabling all Sound Blaster drivers, both from DOS and Windows, but still gets stuck on the Win3.1 load screen

Do you have the network card connected to a network and is a dhcp server available on the network ?

If 3C90XCFG.EXE can't find the card, it may be wrong version.
Early versions of 3C90X software don't support the C variant of 905.

spacesaver wrote on 2023-09-25, 00:13:

2. I'm running this on a 486. It seems a PCI NIC would be uncommon during the days of WFW 3.11 ?

Argh, that's hard to answer, really.

On one hand, WfW 3.11 is based on Windows 3.1x from the ol' ISA bus days and lacks plug&play.

On the other hand, WfW 3.11 was released in the days of VLB and PCI and got technology ported back from Chicago project (32-Bit disk cache, new network stack over WfW 3.10, VFAT etc).

So it was a Windows 3.1x on sugar, upgraded with 32-Bit technology in mind.
It even shipped with new 256c Super VGA drivers at the time.

So I would say that WfW 3.11 was indeed being used in conjunction with high-performance NICs at someone point.
But the normal environment maybe were 386/486 and 586 PCs with Novell netware hardware, meaning ISA cards.

There's a picture of a WfW kit, even. But it might be from WfW 3.10, which was the unpopular predecessor.
Still WfW 3.11 might have been an important upgrade here.

Source: https://www.winhistory.de/more/win311.htm

Edit: It's maybe also good to keep in mind that EISA, MCA and OPTI bus were very niche on desktop PCs, but popular in higher-end workstations and servers.
And they likely had NICs in such 32-Bit slots.
So even without PCI around, Windows 3.x was already being faced with 32-Bit hardware for years.

I've got the driver CD for these (I've got a few 3com cards) ...readme attached

Success! By using the NDIS 2, instead of NDIS 3 driver.

Let me share my findings for whoever attempts this frustrating but rewarding quest in the future.

1st, I tried the packet driver together with mTCP in DOS. That worked, so at least the hardware is good.

Besides freezing on the Windows startup screen, many times, it would either
1. show the mouse loading cursor and freeze
2. get to the login window and freeze
3. can get passed the login window and to Program manager. But starting a DOS prompt would immediately freeze, so I couldn't run ipconfig or ping to test.

It seemed the settings in config.sys like files= and stacks had something to do with which of the 4 happens, so played around with those. Also tried disabling Sound Blaster drivers and EMM386, but it was a dead end.

Then I found from the docs on EtherCD that there's a setting for the driver type. The default is real mode (NDIS2) and protected (NDIS3). I tried changing it to protected only, then ODI, then real mode.

Finally, I was able to share folders in File Manager! I've never done it before in Win 3.1, but the share screen along with the login screen feel awefuly similar to that from Windows 98. I'm also pretty surprised that WFW 3.1 uses the same SMB 1.0 that my other Win98 PC uses to share files with Windows 10.

Grzyb, you're right the version of 3c90xcfg I used was too old. I got a newer one from EtherCD 5.4 on Vogons' library and it was detected.

Glad you got it working! 🙂

When you're at trouble shooting problems, it's maybe good to remember that Windows for Workgroups isn't exactly like Windows 9x, maybe.

Primarily, it was inteded as a peer-to-peer based Network OS on the office PCs of the day.
- The optional TCP/IP-32 is quite an early implementation, a back-port from Chicago project (Windows 95 development).

Secondly, it also was intended as a client counter-part to Windows NT 3.x servers of the day.
So WfW may act more like NT in some specific ways than Windows 9x.

Windows 95/98 still had a lot in common with WfW 3.11, but these were consumer/home user "OSes" through&through.

By comparison, Windows for Workgroups was semi-professional, it met the criteria of a "network OS".
It was a step up from plain Windows 3.1x and originally not intended as a replacement.

However, the many bugfixes, enhancements and the positive acceptance among users caused WfW to be bundled with PCs later on.

It was similar with OS/2, too.
OS/2 Warp 3 Connect was IBM's equivalent to Windows for Workgroups.

Edit: This is maybe useful, too: SMB1 was better known as "CIFS".
If you're messing around with Samba or older networking software, that's good to know, maybe.

Ugh, the speed is pretty bad. Only 670 KB/s for reading large files and 180 KB/s writing to it. I suspect it has to do with using the real mode driver. I know from reading about how games using DOS extenders work that any I/O using BIOS calls had to do expensive transitions from protected to real mode. Still, it's > 10x faster than the Gotek floppy this will be replacing.

The other thing that's bothering me is the longer boot times from waiting for a key press to boot from the network. There is a config option to configure the wait time, but 3s is the min. Is there any way to disable net booting? It seems many 3C905 boards have a removable boot ROM, but not this one. Maybe I can manually desolder it.

The other treacherous thing that slowed me down was I couldn't find any way to get logging, at least not from Vogons or ChatGPT. I finally found it: win /B. I'll try it and see if I can get further with the NDIS 3 driver
https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/082/Q82731/

Jo22, I see you're a proponent of WFW. Win 3.1x doesn't seem very popular on Vogons. The 1st PC I used had Win 3.1. Later, before middle school, my family got a newer PC with Windows 98, but I continued using 3.1 for a few more years. The only networking on 3.1 I remember was using America Online. It sounded like you said only WFW got TCP/IP backported from Win95, so I wonder what protocol America Online or other dial up ISPs used. I'm surprised even IE 5 can run on Win3.1 ! I'm going to try it.

I think what would be really cool is if someone ported DirectX to Win 3.1 ! I remember the lack of any graphically demanding games. Some games like SimTower and many educational titles used WinG, but no AAA titles.

The only networking on 3.1 I remember was using America Online

That would've been trumpet winsock iirc.

spacesaver wrote on 2023-10-16, 00:52:

Jo22, I see you're a proponent of WFW. Win 3.1x doesn't seem very popular on Vogons. The 1st PC I used had Win 3.1. Later, before middle school, my family got a newer PC with Windows 98, but I continued using 3.1 for a few more years. The only networking on 3.1 I remember was using America Online. It sounded like you said only WFW got TCP/IP backported from Win95, so I wonder what protocol America Online or other dial up ISPs used. I'm surprised even IE 5 can run on Win3.1 ! I'm going to try it.

Hi there! 🙂 I was using Windows 3.1 way back in the 90s and have fond memories of it.
I mainly browsed shareware CDs back then and visited a few BBSes.
It was fun reading through all the stuff and trying out those little games for the Windows desktop (DOS games, too).
Unfortunately, I was quite young back then and wasn't into the latest hardware.

What I had on my desktop was a humble 286 PC, running at 12 MHz.
However, it was upgraded by my father and me. 4 MB of RAM, VGA, mouse, a handy scanner, HP Laserjet,
a multimedia upgrade kit consisting of a PAS16 soundcard w/ CD-ROM drive, an older Creatix modem..
It was good enough to go online, but it could only run 16-Bit software.

Which means CompuServe's WinCIM ran fine, but not the Internet Explorer 3.
Same goes for AOL software, I suppose, but I don't think we had an subscription for AOL.
- AOL was the arch enemy of CompuServe, so to say. 😁
(Not that it was an issue to us, whatsoever.)

What we also had was T-Online software 1.2, for the national online service (BTX, Datex-J; a Videotex service). Think of it as a variation of the French Minitel service.
The software shipped with a special version of Netscape Navigator 2.1, I believe, but that was 32-Bit, too - like Internet Explorer.

So neither did run on my PC, sadly..
The basic online service of both T-Online and CompuServe (not internet based) worked on my PC just fine, though.

By contrast, my dad was running Windows 95 early on, before the A/B/C revisions were out.
And that's were I got into contact with TCP/IP, originally, if memory serves.
We also had Windows for Workgroups, but the original version which wasn't so well supported..
On the Windows 95 PC, however, both internet browsers were supported and it was possible to join the information superhighway.

Hm. It's weird to say, but in my place the internet didn't have that same status as in other places. 🤷‍♂️

Many internet things were already possible via ISDN and AX.25 (the service was known as Datex-P here) back in the day.
Like video telephony, e-mail, digital fax, telephone conferencing etc.

Banks and ATMs used Datex-P, too. Home banking / online banking was usually being done via Datex-J (aka BTX, T-Online), which also was accessible over Datex-P network.

The connection was safer than using the internet.
If a user wanted to connect to his bank to transfer money or check the account,
the bank computer was connecting directly to you and take over the communication from Datex-J (BTX, T-Online).
It was an external database, so to say, not a part of the Datex-J (BTX, T-Online) mainframe system.

The digitalization wasn't so focused around TCP/IP yet.
In fact, in my place many PC professionals didn't even know about TCP/IP or the internet back then, it was considered more of an exotic Unix thing.
In the public mind, the internet was something the universities had worked with, an experimental something.
Which it was - but in the 80s..

Edit: I must admit that pure ISPs did also exist, though.
1&1 was an early one in my place, I think. Some users were using young ISPs in favor of the big, established online services.
This was years before Microsoft tried to convince everyone into participating "The Microsoft Network" (Windows 95 had shipped with MS Network software).

But still, it weren't dark times. In my place we had car phones, cellphones (w/ SMS, but as scrolling text) and pagers (Scall, Skyper etc), Videotext/Teletext (like Ceefax in UK) and so on.
It were modern times in the 90s here, with networking and so on.

But the PC networks ran on IPX/SPX (Novell Netware or a compatible system) or other network suites like Kirschbaum Netz (based on Little Big LAN from the US).

Some users/small offices also used null-modem cables and Norton Commander or LapLink/WinLink software.
Networking was very adventurous in the 90s. 🙂

Computer magazines here did of course cover the world wide web, but it was still an exotic thing, rather.
It was being covered alongside BTX and CompuServe forum pages. AOL, too, later on, maybe.
There were collections of interesting URLs being mentioned in magazines.
Of obscure things, music sites, private fan sites, virtual reality etc.
Some magazines also had a list of popular mailboxes (BBSes) printed.

The MausNet was one of the bigger ones, I vaguely remember.
In other places, Fidonet was still a thing. Some BBS ports also had the newest modems installed and/or an ISDN port.
Was a fun time. 😄 I wished I had seen more of it back then.

We also had public BTX terminals everyone could use. It were like internet terminals, but without the internet.
Home users could use Multitels telephones, they looked pretty much like Minitels from France. Or a computer, of course.

TVs sold in the 90s had videotext/teletext decoding built-in. People without a PC or an online subscription could read the latest news comfortable at home any time.
The data signals were being hidden in the analogue TV signals (like with Ceefax).

Some rare TVs also had a keyboard and could establish a dial-up connection to BTX (by using an external modem).
This was a bit confusing, because BTX looked quite like Teletext. Both also had similar naming at some point (Videotex family of online service vs Videotext aka Teletext). 🙁

PS: The early - mid 90s were also a time in which Paket-Radio on CB radio was a thing (in my place, that started ~'94).
For those nerds of us into both PCs and walkie-talkies etc..
It wasn't exactly mainstream, though. But free of charge, at least.

spacesaver wrote on 2023-10-16, 00:52:

I think what would be really cool is if someone ported DirectX to Win 3.1 ! I remember the lack of any graphically demanding games. Some games like SimTower and many educational titles used WinG, but no AAA titles.

I second that! 😃 I hope that a Direct Draw to WinG is possible one day.
Because quite a few 32-Bit applications could in theory run on Win32s (examples).
What's holding a few of them back is the lack of DirectDraw/DirectSound.
DirectX version 2 or 3 would be sufficient to make them run, I believe.
DirectSound isn't so critical, maybe.

Edit: A few graphical sophisticated games that come mind are:
- Myst and other QuickTime titles (Pyst, Robot City etc)
- Titanic: Adventure Out of Time
- Freddy Fish series, Putt-Putts series
- Dare to Dream series (by Epic MegaGames)
- Creatures
- Fury³
- Sierra On-Line games (Kings Quest 7 etc)
- Certain Sega PC titles (Comix Zone?)
- Lion King (Windows port run on Win32s?)

Edit:

giantclam wrote on 2023-10-16, 01:27:

The only networking on 3.1 I remember was using America Online

That would've been trumpet winsock iirc.

I remember, back in the days of Mosaic web browser and Windows 3.1, there were Winsocks on various CD-ROMs.
Some were shareware, I vaguely remember.

Edit: Ah, sorry for the long posting.. It's late in the evening here and I got carried away a bit. 😅

Some success. The NDIS 3 driver does work after I installed the card in my other Pentium 3 retro PC. But there is no speed improvement over NDIS2. For both, it's

3.7 MiB/s read (sequential)
250 KiB/s write (I'm using a SD card to IDE adapter)

I'm guessing it's because on a 1.4 GHz Tualatin P3, switching between real and protected mode is negligible time. So I still don't know if it has any benefit on a 486. Maybe it has no benefit even on a 486 for sequential reads/writes, and is only a win for apps that make lots of round trip network calls.

If it works on another machine, it makes me believe even more that there's something unstable about this PC. I've been having other glitches and crashes in a game Flickering lines in Terminator Skynet.

@ Jo22
Sorry, I'm not familiar with most of the networks you mentioned. I have already seen a news show on Minitel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUx7dP2S7h4. It seems the success of the platform would very much depend on,
1. Can you easily create a server and host your own content. I heard Minitel was heavily regulated.
2. Can you connect to any other user on the network. BBS satisfy #1, but are too centralized. I don't think users on a BBS even have a network address, so then how can you address them

The 1st online service I remember was Prodigy, then later alternating between Compuserve and AOL at home in the mid 90s. In elementary school, I never saw any internet until 1997 after moving to an affluent school district. Before that, it was all DOS PCs connected via Novell Netware, I think. I suspect they were also 286s because they didn't run Windows and the graphics were pretty low resolution and definitely not 256 color.

Hi again, I'm glad you got things working (better) now. ^^

spacesaver wrote on 2023-10-21, 02:35:

The 1st online service I remember was Prodigy, then later alternating between Compuserve and AOL at home in the mid 90s.
In elementary school, I never saw any internet until 1997 after moving to an affluent school district. Before that, it was all DOS PCs connected via Novell Netware, I think.
I suspect they were also 286s because they didn't run Windows and the graphics were pretty low resolution and definitely not 256 color.

Prodigy? Cool! 😎 I've never used it myself but saw videos/pictures of it.

Btw, If you wonder how BTX looked like, it was like this on a 286 running Windows 3:

https://www.pagetable.com/?p=1163

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwEhoSYtGEk

Here's a whacky commercial from the 80s, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBfvIh2K4G0

In the mid-late 90s, it got an upgrade called "KIT", which allowed for hyperlinks, icons and bitmap graphics.
It looked like the Windows 3.0 help system and a bit like CompuServe, essentially.

Example: http://www.phasinma.de/alteSeite/material/tb2 … t2/t_onlin3.htm

The French, our neighbors here, used the more popular MiniTel system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N5W-dK5hWU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ful9f-lm1yE

It's closer to the original Prestel system from the UK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mipluyeX4Gs

BTX by design was meant to be more sophisticated, cheerful though.
Too bad my fellow citizens were kinda technophobic at the time (scared of computers, of losing jobs through technology etc).. 🙁

The French were more open minded, more flexible at the time.
MiniTel was cheap, too. Literally plug&play and easy to use.
They even had a virtual red light district (or dating site) early on. But that's not too surprising, I guess. 😉

The Swiss and Austrians also had BTX like us, but not so much bureaucracy.
Especially Austria had a friendly BTX system, I believe.

Edit: I hope you don't mind for the long posting. It's just too fascinating to discuss these old communication technologies. 😅